An Independent Scotland?

Well we certainly won't have much say in the EU if we don't get independence and the UK votes to leave the EU.
Wonder if our voice will have much of a say then?
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You get the same say as any other part of the UK.

The more you run us down, the more I want to vote yes!
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No one is running you down, but please do, I am a great supporter of the idea! But I also think that you should do it knowing what you are in for. While the SNP are lying to you, you don't. By the time you find that out and it's all not going the way you think it will, it's going to be too late, the SNP will never dare let you have a second chance.
 
Bernie174 said:
You get the same say as any other part of the UK.
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What? Poll tax? Bedroom tax? We said NO, they said YES. We have a voice, but no one listens, unless it suits them.
And what about Sweden not being in the EU? Were you misinformed? lying? Or just feeding us bullsh!t:p
 
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Bobsyeruncle said:
What? Poll tax? Bedroom tax? We said NO, they said YES. We have a voice, but no one listens, unless it suits them.
:p
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Neither poll tax nor bedroom tax were anything to do with the EU (and if you think the SNP won't tax you, you are sadly mistaken ... if they are going to continue with free university education etc once the English tax payer isn't subsidising Scotland they'll have to tax you even more)

A lot of people in England were opposed to both too , but the govt doesn't listen to the little people (except in the immediate run up to the election, during which they make promises they then break once elected) and if you think Salmond and co will be any different, then you've been at the whisky again.

Don't get me wrong though I think Scottish independence is a great idea - indeed I think there should be a uk wide referendum on independence so that those of us down here who think Scotland should go its own way can have our voice heard too
 
Why can't Scotland survive as an independent country? There are many similarly sized countries that do, and without many of the resources that Scotland has. Why can't we survive, get through the pain that we keep getting told about, and go on to be more prosperous? Why do we have to play second fiddle to England? Why shouldn't we have the right to be in control of our future destiny, good or bad? Why cant we remain in The EU?
Why should Scotland be different from the many countries that have prospered after either separating from their neighbours, or leaving the control of the Great British Empire?
 
big soft moose said:
Neither poll tax nor bedroom tax were anything to do with the EU (and if you think the SNP won't tax you, you are sadly mistaken ... if they are going to continue with free university education etc once the English tax payer isn't subsidising Scotland they'll have to tax you even more)

A lot of people in England were opposed to both too , but the govt doesn't listen to the little people (except in the immediate run up to the election, during which they make promises they then break once elected) and if you think Salmond and co will be any different, then you've been at the whisky again.

Don't get me wrong though I think Scottish independence is a great idea - indeed I think there should be a uk wide referendum on independence so that those of us down here who think Scotland should go its own way can have our voice heard too
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I know they had nothing to do with the EU. I was merely pointing out how effective our voice isn't, regardless of whether its domestic matters or EU matters. It's England that's pulling the strings.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Well we certainly won't have much say in the EU if we don't get independence and the UK votes to leave the EU.
Wonder if our voice will have much of a say then?
I thought Sweden joined the EU in 1995?
The more you run us down, the more I want to vote yes!
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Thats probably the most stupidest reason for voting for independence I have ever heard. Do you not have a mind of your own rather than allowing some random poster on the internet to push you into a decision that will have major consequences :shrug:
 
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jakeblu said:
Thats probably the most stupidest reason for voting for independence I have ever heard. Do you not have a mind of your own rather than allowing some random poster on the internet to push you into a decision that will have major consequences :shrug:
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Eh? Are you stupid? I do have a mind of my own. No one is pushing me into a decision. I'm not making my decision based on someone's forum comments, and if you think that I am, then you definitely are stupid! Or should that be most stupidest?
 
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Bobsyeruncle said:
Eh? Are you stupid? I do have a mind of my own. No one is pushing me into a decision. I'm not making my decision based on someone's forum comments, and if you think that I am, then you definitely are stupid! Or should that be most stupidest?
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I didn't call you stupid but I'm beginning to think otherwise, I said the reasons for voting for independence were stupid, or in my alleged stupidity did I misunderstand this comment
'The more you run us down, the more I want to vote yes!'
 
jakeblu said:
I didn't call you stupid but I'm beginning to think otherwise, I said the reasons for voting for independence were stupid, or in my alleged stupidity did I misunderstand this comment
'The more you run us down, the more I want to vote yes!'
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Ok, so if I rephrase my comment then.
The more you tell us we can't, the more I want to prove we can! Because I believe we can.
You don't, I do. You would be happy if I said "ok, I hear what you're saying, I've changed my mind, and I'm going to vote no"
I am fully aware of the "potential" consequences of my decision, but don't agree that all of the consequences will be negative. I have many reasons for voting yes, and comments that bring us down, or imply that we're too stupid to run our own affairs, or don't have the resources to survive, are not going to make me vote no, are they?
I'm not suggesting that you were implying any of those remarks by the way.
 
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Bobsyeruncle said:
Why can't Scotland survive as an independent country? There are many similarly sized countries that do, and without many of the resources that Scotland has. Why can't we survive, get through the pain that we keep getting told about, and go on to be more prosperous? Why do we have to play second fiddle to England? Why shouldn't we have the right to be in control of our future destiny, good or bad? Why cant we remain in The EU?
Why should Scotland be different from the many countries that have prospered after either separating from their neighbours, or leaving the control of the Great British Empire?
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because westminster wants to keep all the oil, whisky, tartan and haggis tax for themselves ;)
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
without many of the resources that Scotland has.
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What resources - with the exception of the north sea oil - much of which won't be yours if Shetland and Orkney declare themselves separately independent - what else have you got

Bobsyeruncle said:
Why cant we remain in The EU?
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you can't remain in the EU because you'll have left the entity that was admitted - you can of course apply for member status , and they'll take you if you can meet the criteria (although depending on the above you may not)

Bobsyeruncle said:
Why should Scotland be different from the many countries that have prospered after either separating from their neighbours, or leaving the control of the Great British Empire?
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How many of those countries that left the 'empire' have prospered - India and the USA have true, but they both have massive resources, S/A is doing okay (but again has lots of resources) , Zimbabwe is a complete mess, so are most of the rest of the African countries (Sudan for example), most of the rest that are doing alright either have very close ties to the UK , or lots of resources / massive tourism ... most of those that have neither are degenerating into third world s***holes (e.g Yemen )
 
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big soft moose said:
What resources - with the exception of the north sea oil - much of which won't be yours if Shetland and Orkney declare themselves separately independent - what else have you got



you can't remain in the EU because you'll have left the entity that was admitted - you can of course apply for member status , and they'll take you if you can meet the criteria (although depending on the above you may not)



How many of those countries that left the 'empire' have prospered - India and the USA have true, but they both have massive resources, S/A is doing okay (but again has lots of resources) , Zimbabwe is a complete mess, so are most of the rest of the African countries (Sudan for example), most of the rest that are doing alright either have very close ties to the UK , or lots of resources / massive tourism ... most of those that have neither are degenerating into third world s***holes (e.g Yemen )
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We have many resources apart from oil. Gas, water, waves, wind, whisky, an abundance of fertile land, fishing, tourism. Pretty crap eh?

Who says that the EU, given the unique circumstances, won't allow Scotland continued membership? I'm not saying they will, but you can't say they won't
 
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Bobsyeruncle said:
We have many resources apart from oil. Gas, water, waves, wind, whisky, an abundance of fertile land, fishing, tourism. Pretty crap eh?

Who says that the EU, given the unique circumstances, won't allow Scotland continued membership? I'm not saying they will, but you can't say they won't
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I firmly believe that is true, but Scotland is best within the UK. It is all one land mass, we all speak the same language, there are alot of "one off" set up costs of a wholly new administration that economies of scale make it easier and cheaper to share accross the UK.

Water (fresh) is an asset (particularly if we can sell it to areas in need), waves/wind are a debtable source of energy at best. Fishing is a minority thing and I doubt I want to see the economy based on Whisky export. Perhaps if you drew the border, much further north, say Aberdeenshire/Invernesshire as the southerly point, you may have the basis of a small country with a good economy based around the oil/gas expertise within aberdeen and whisky in the north, but with Glasgow/central belt that lot you've listed isn't enough to make Scotland more prosperous than rUK.

I fully believe scotland would survive on it's own, but it would be poorer than its brethern south of the border.What is to also say what currency the Scot's would use and that EU membership, it is a big gamble if scotland wants to be in the EU and they say no.
 
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ST4 said:
I firmly believe that is true, but Scotland is best within the UK. It is all one land mass, we all speak the same language, there are alot of "one off" set up costs of a wholly new administration that economies of scale make it easier and cheaper to share accross the UK.

Water is an asset, waves/wind are a debtable source of energy at best. Fishing is a minority thing and I doubt I want to see the economy based on Whisky export. Perhaps if you drew the border, much further north, say Aberdeenshire/Invernesshire as the southerly point, you may have the basis of a small country with a good economy based around the oil/gas expertise within aberdeen and whisky in the north, but with Glasgow/central belt that lot you've listed isn't enough to make Scotland more prosperous than rUK.

I fully believe scotland would survive on it's own, but it would be poorer than its brethern south of the border.What is to also say what currency the Scot's would use and that EU membership, it is a big gamble if scotland wants to be in the EU and they say no.
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Europe is one land mass, and unlike us, they speak more than one language.
Like it or loathe it, wind and wave power is happening. Don't underestimate the value of whisky and fishing.
It takes many resources for a successful economy, and we have many, even more than I've mentioned.
We don't need to be more prosperous than RUK, only more prosperous than we are at present.
 
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Bobsyeruncle said:
Europe is one land mass, and unlike us, they speak more than one language.
Like it or loathe it, wind and wave power is happening. Don't underestimate the value of whisky and fishing.
It takes many resources for a successful economy, and we have many, even more than I've mentioned.
We don't need to be more prosperous than RUK, only more prosperous than we are at present.
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We are British and are prosperous as British people. If you think we can be more prosperous as Scottish people you vote yes, if you don't you vote no.

I have a lot of skepticism and little faith in these "economies" so will be voting no. I also fear for my own job in the event of a Yes vote.

Wave/wind power, a bit like hydrogen power, IMHO aren't coming any time soon. Clean coal and nuclear, yes.
 
ST4 said:
We are British and are prosperous as British people. If you think we can be more prosperous as Scottish people you vote yes, if you don't you vote no.

I have a lot of skepticism and little faith in these "economies" so will be voting no. I also fear for my own job in the event of a Yes vote.

Wave/wind power, a bit like hydrogen power, IMHO aren't coming any time soon. Clean coal and nuclear, yes.
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Wind and wave technology is Here and happening.
Have you not noticed all the wind turbines that everyone is complaining about.
 
Anyone who thinks the UK is doing ok is deluding themselves, the UK is sliding down into the abyss and dragging us with it. If our votes don't get us the government in Westminster that we vote for then we have no power to change what is happening. By pulling out of the union we will at least have more control of our own destiny and it will be a wake up call for the people in rUK, may well save rUK in the long run.
 
Scotland generates more electricity than it uses, i.e. a net exporter of electricity. That's one of the sticks the no campaign try to hit us with "England won't buy electricity from a foreign Scotland".
 
big soft moose said:
What resources - with the exception of the north sea oil - much of which won't be yours if Shetland and Orkney declare themselves separately independent - what else have you got
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there is plenty of other taxable income in scotland not just oil and shetland and orkney won't becoming independant. more nonsense from the No's

big soft moose said:
you can't remain in the EU because you'll have left the entity that was admitted - you can of course apply for member status , and they'll take you if you can meet the criteria (although depending on the above you may not)
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again another load of rubbish - we don't actually know what is going to happen what with this being a first time however interpretation of current EU law we will stay in the EU. can you imagine how many problems that will cause not just for scotland but for all the other countries that do business here????? I would be in the best interests if the EU member states for Scotland to remain in the EU. I for one need it for cheap cycling parts from zee germans


big soft moose said:
How many of those countries that left the 'empire' have prospered - India and the USA have true, but they both have massive resources, S/A is doing okay (but again has lots of resources) , Zimbabwe is a complete mess, so are most of the rest of the African countries (Sudan for example), most of the rest that are doing alright either have very close ties to the UK , or lots of resources / massive tourism ... most of those that have neither are degenerating into third world s***holes (e.g Yemen )
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so you are comparing scotland to 3rd world countries with poor infrastructure, dodgy goverments and poor education, thats a new low for the No supporters.
 
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It wasn't actually. It's the way they went about it that was wrong.
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What? Bringing it in? Something had to be done, albeit, I do think it should be income tax based. Rightly or wrongly, it was going to come in, and somewhere had to have it first. I never saw any issue with it.
 
Anyone who thinks the UK is doing ok is deluding themselves, the UK is sliding down into the abyss and dragging us with it. If our votes don't get us the government in Westminster that we vote for then we have no power to change what is happening. By pulling out of the union we will at least have more control of our own destiny and it will be a wake up call for the people in rUK, may well save rUK in the long run.
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Not sure where you get that rubbish from.
The UK is not sliding anywhere, according to most economists it's doing better than most of the rest of Europe. Then again, I suppose cause Uncle Alex says it's true, it must be, he's never lied about anything has he..............
 
Bernie174 said:
What? Bringing it in? Something had to be done, albeit, I do think it should be income tax based. Rightly or wrongly, it was going to come in, and somewhere had to have it first. I never saw any issue with it.
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Agree, someone had to have it first, so what was wrong with England having it first? Or why not just roll it out to the whole UK?
 
Bernie174 said:
Not sure where you get that rubbish from.
The UK is not sliding anywhere, according to most economists it's doing better than most of the rest of Europe. Then again, I suppose cause Uncle Alex says it's true, it must be, he's never lied about anything has he..............
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Don't recall uncle Alex saying that about the UK sliding into the abyss. The rest is actually true though.
 
Steep said:
Anyone who thinks the UK is doing ok is deluding themselves, the UK is sliding down into the abyss and dragging us with it. If our votes don't get us the government in Westminster that we vote for then we have no power to change what is happening. By pulling out of the union we will at least have more control of our own destiny and it will be a wake up call for the people in rUK, may well save rUK in the long run.
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Typical arrogance from north of the border. "The government in Westminster WE want". I'm afraid it's not all about you. You are in the minority. Just because the 43 Labour MPs you elect don't result in a Labour government is hard luck. There are a lot more people in rUK that are entitled to vote for the government in Westminster THEY want. Personally I'd have stopped those MPs voting on rUK matter long before now and stopped Scotland having an unrepresentative say in what doesn't concern them.

I, like you, look forward to a YES vote.
 
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The Scots behind the yes vote seem to say that because they didn't get a government they voted for (tory), but one the british majority didn't like, that this is some terrible injustice. They fail to remember we had 3 consecutive labour governments but they seem to labour the point that Thatcher got elected, yes, because of a majority, Scotland is only 10% approx of rUK population. Why the Scots feel they have been the receipt of some terrible injustice beats me.

Perhaps if my vote doesn't get my my choice, I should declare the area around my house as an independent country in some self indulgent tantrum. Perhaps when Aberdeen votes SNP and Glasgow labour, Aberdeenshire will want independence as labour get in. It is a stupid non argument.,
 
Agree, someone had to have it first, so what was wrong with England having it first? Or why not just roll it out to the whole UK?
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It did get rolled out for the whole UK, apart from NI I seem to recall.
Anyway, as it was a very fair way of doing things, why complain?
It seems to me some Scots want to complain they don't get the good bits of being in the UK, but when they do, they complain about that??????

ST has a point on minorities, I bet the Scots Tories wont get listened too by your left wing Government.
 
Thanks Jim, but it's not arrogance. If a country or even a region persistently votes against the norm of the rest surely it's their responsibility to look themselves for a solution?
 
Steve you're very conveniently missing some important points. If we as part of the UK get Tory governments we didn't vote for that's life, if we don't like it it's for us to decide to split away. The Labour governments you speak of would have been elected even without the Scottish vote but they only got elected on the Southern vote because they moved to the right, a case of they don't agree with our policies, lets change our policies just to get into power. The move to the right has alienated many Scots Labour supporters, hence Scottish Labour for Independence who feel that they have been betrayed by Labour as run by Tony Blair and now whatsisname.

In Scotland now we get the representation we vote for, that's how PR works but the Scottish Parliament is still hamstrung by being subservient to Westminster so while we get the government we vote for they have limited scope to do anything.
 
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Steep said:
Thanks Jim, but it's not arrogance. If a country or even a region persistently votes against the norm of the rest surely it's their responsibility to look themselves for a solution?
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You're welcome Hugh.

Everybody is out of step but the Scots. We might as well not bother having general elections, just lets the Scots decide for the rest of us.

As I said, I look forward to a YES vote, and the end of the West Lothian tyranny. It's a win-win situation.
 
chadders said:
You're welcome Hugh.

Everybody is out of step but the Scots. We might as well not bother having general elections, just lets the Scots decide for the rest of us.

As I said, I look forward to a YES vote, and the end of the West Lothian tyranny. It's a win-win situation.
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I said it's not arrogance, arrogant would be us Scots demanding that Westminster change to suit us even though we were in the minority by UK standards. We're not doing that, we're saying Westminster doesn't represent what we want so lets go do it ourselves. Leaving aside all the other things like our belief that WM is corrupted beyond fixing, that one thing 'that we have the right to a government that represents us' is the what should convince people everywhere that independence is the right thing. People elsewhere in the world are fighting and dying for that ideal, we're doing it by the ballot box and not through any kind of arrogance.
 
Bernie174 said:
It did get rolled out for the whole UK, apart from NI I seem to recall.
Anyway, as it was a very fair way of doing things, why complain?
It seems to me some Scots want to complain they don't get the good bits of being in the UK, but when they do, they complain about that??????

ST has a point on minorities, I bet the Scots Tories wont get listened too by your left wing Government.
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It was rolled out in Scotland in 1989, then in 1990, the rest of the UK, making us the guinea pigs.
I preferred it, because it meant I paid less than what I was paying in rates.
If the Scottish Tories come up with policies that I feel will benefit the country, then i would vote for them. Can't speak for anyone else.
 
POAH said:
there is plenty of other taxable income in scotland not just oil and shetland and orkney won't becoming independant. more nonsense from the No's.
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Really - and how do you know this ? If they decide they want to how exactly are you going to stop them ? (also the newer fields are further out and may not even be in Scottish territorial waters )

Oh and taxable income isn't a resource - what other resources does Scotland have apart from the oil ( theres some timber , but its mostly worth less than it'd cost to harvest, theres some water - but England has plenty of water in the lakes and Yorkshire so we don't need to buy it from Scotland , there's some low grade farmland and some hill estates. ) Good luck with making that pay.

but you are wrong to charecterise me as a 'no' - I'm an English yes as I can't wait for a net drain on the uk economy to go off and do their own thing - what I'm saying is that the Scottish Yes's haven't thought this through , and the SNP are basically spout misleading tosh (no surprise there - that's what politicians do)
 
ST4 said:
The Scots behind the yes vote seem to say that because they didn't get a government they voted for (tory), but one the british majority didn't like, that this is some terrible injustice. They fail to remember we had 3 consecutive labour governments but they seem to labour the point that Thatcher got elected, yes, because of a majority, Scotland is only 10% approx of rUK population. Why the Scots feel they have been the receipt of some terrible injustice beats me.

Perhaps if my vote doesn't get my my choice, I should declare the area around my house as an independent country in some self indulgent tantrum. Perhaps when Aberdeen votes SNP and Glasgow labour, Aberdeenshire will want independence as labour get in. It is a stupid non argument.,
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What's stupid about wanting our country to be governed and controlled by an government that we elected??? We didn't elect Tony Blair either.
 
big soft moose said:
Really - and how do you know this ? If they decide they want to how exactly are you going to stop them ? (also the newer fields are further out and may not even be in Scottish territorial waters )

Oh and taxable income isn't a resource - what other resources does Scotland have apart from the oil ( theres some timber , but its mostly worth less than it'd cost to harvest, theres some water - but England has plenty of water in the lakes and Yorkshire so we don't need to buy it from Scotland , there's some low grade farmland and some hill estates. ) Good luck with making that pay.

but you are wrong to charecterise me as a 'no' - I'm an English yes as I can't wait for a net drain on the uk economy to go off and do their own thing - what I'm saying is that the Scottish Yes's haven't thought this through , and the SNP are basically spout misleading tosh (no surprise there - that's what politicians do)
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:clap:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...-taking-scotland-water-drought_n_1608402.html

So your a farming/timber expert as well as a water expert?
 
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