An Independent Scotland?

big soft moose said:
Really - and how do you know this ? If they decide they want to how exactly are you going to stop them ? (also the newer fields are further out and may not even be in Scottish territorial waters )

Oh and taxable income isn't a resource - what other resources does Scotland have apart from the oil ( theres some timber , but its mostly worth less than it'd cost to harvest, theres some water - but England has plenty of water in the lakes and Yorkshire so we don't need to buy it from Scotland , there's some low grade farmland and some hill estates. ) Good luck with making that pay.

but you are wrong to charecterise me as a 'no' - I'm an English yes as I can't wait for a net drain on the uk economy to go off and do their own thing - what I'm saying is that the Scottish Yes's haven't thought this through , and the SNP are basically spout misleading tosh (no surprise there - that's what politicians do)
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Labour tried the Northern isles breaking away gambit already, they were told by the islanders to put a sock in it. As well as the far North West there are oil deposits in the Firth of Clyde, currently the MOD has banned all exploration there.

Scotlands income from the oil is through tax, there's a nice list further up the thread of some of our other assets.

Glad to see you're a Yes even with the included insult to the Scots, shame you don't get to vote. Chadders mentioned the word arrogance up there too, your notion that millions of Scots are walking blindly into this is the perfect example of arrogance, typical of the 'Scots are too poor, too small and too stupid' attitude of people who would know better if they took the time to look.
 
Steep said:
Which bit of the headline "Local income tax to replace council tax" do you see the words bedroom tax in?
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Ah - so you deliberately miss the point of the post and reply with something else ..... Next you'll be telling me I'm bullying you and it's all propaganda ;)

I will phrase it better for you - perhaps you will reply sensibly then.

Where is the local income tax different from the poll tax (at a high level)?
 
My apologies barneyrubble, not deliberate just misreading. Ok, the local income tax differs from the poll tax in that it's based on income (not sarcasm) as opposed to the number of people living in a house. So that higher earners pay more local tax. In it's way it's fairer but I'm one of the few Scots who thought that the poll tax had potential to be a good tax, i.e. those who use more facilities pay more. Current council tax is measured by the rateable value of your home within bands which is not fair on me as a single home owner, it's a very good deal for the family of six up the road who put out extra rubbish bins, use far more water etc.
 
The majority of the Scottish population didn't vote Shrek in either.

Yes, I know why and how he got in but it's still not a true representation. It's also very wrong that they hold an overall majority in Scottish Parliament.

As for Blair, he was probably the worst thing that ever happened to the uk with gordon brown right behind him. Between them they have caused huge amounts of irreversible damage.
 
Blair and Brown did not do what they did because they had a deeply held belief in it which makes it all the worse.

As for the SNPs last election win, they deserved it because they got the most votes, there is no fairer voting system than proportional representation. Saying it's not fair because most Scots didn't vote for them (combining all other votes together) is horlicks, voters got the representation that they did vote for in proportion the the votes cast.
 
big soft moose said:
Really - and how do you know this ? If they decide they want to how exactly are you going to stop them ? (also the newer fields are further out and may not even be in Scottish territorial waters )

Oh and taxable income isn't a resource - what other resources does Scotland have apart from the oil ( theres some timber , but its mostly worth less than it'd cost to harvest, theres some water - but England has plenty of water in the lakes and Yorkshire so we don't need to buy it from Scotland , there's some low grade farmland and some hill estates. ) Good luck with making that pay.

but you are wrong to charecterise me as a 'no' - I'm an English yes as I can't wait for a net drain on the uk economy to go off and do their own thing - what I'm saying is that the Scottish Yes's haven't thought this through , and the SNP are basically spout misleading tosh (no surprise there - that's what politicians do)
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how else do you get money from the oil other than taxation? The UK goverment doesn't drill for it.

Sorry but England isn't the only country we export to so not sure why all the nonsense about water in the lake district. We exportt Aerospace & Naval Systems, Barley, Buses, Business & Financial Services, Chemical Products, Computers, Computer Software, Electricity, Electronics, Fish, Irn–Bru, Oil & Gas, Pharmaceuticals, Potatoes, Renewable Energy, Scotch Whisky, Ships, Shortbread, Textiles, Timber, Water to the USA, Europe and the rest of the world. 3.5 billion to the USA alone in 2011

The scottish Economy is better than the rUK overall plus Scotland provided 9.4% of total UK revenues and got 'only' 9.2% of UK public spending in return. if you don't take into account certain tax then yes we do appear to take more than we make but it should be pointed out that is not the only part of the UK that is currently spending more than it raises in revenues.

If scotland had been independant at the last referendum we would not have had to share the massive debt built up by 30 years of successive crap UK governments, would not have had to pay for nukes or the stupid gulf wars so we would be around 50 billion in the black.

inorder to succed you need to be legally allowed to do it, shetland and orkney are not likely to get permission from the scottish goverment to do so.
 
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Bobsyeruncle said:
What's stupid about wanting our country to be governed and controlled by an government that we elected??? We didn't elect Tony Blair either.
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"Our" country is actually a part of Britain. The British electorate, which you are a part of, didn't vote the way you and some of the electorate didn't like?

Maybe South Yorkshire should break away from Britain because the Torys got in and not labour.
 
ST4 said:
"Our" country is actually a part of Britain. The British electorate, which you are a part of, didn't vote the way you and some of the electorate didn't like?

Maybe South Yorkshire should break away from Britain because the Torys got in and not labour.
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Yes, your correct, our country is part of Britain, but it doesn't have to be.
Your comment about Yorkshire is just daft.
 
It's typical of the level of argument from some nay sayers in this thread, can't win with facts so throw in some ridiculous extreme consequence and then blame the Scots for causing it.
 
ST4 said:
Why it (Yorkshire) is part of Britain but doesn't "have to be". Why do the Scots feel they are above those from other parts of the UK.
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for starters yorkshire is a county not a country, so yes it is different.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
What's stupid about wanting our country to be governed and controlled by an government that we elected??? We didn't elect Tony Blair either.
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In 1997 45.6% of the Scottish electorate returned 56 Labour MPs. I'm not sure how you equate that with not electing Blair. However, you certainly got the government you voted for. The joke is the UK eventually got landed with one of your MPs (Gordon Brown) as PM, that none of us voted for.
 
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POAH said:
how else do you get money from the oil other than taxation? The UK goverment doesn't drill for it.

If scotland had been independant at the last referendum we would not have had to share the massive debt built up by 30 years of successive crap UK governments, would not have had to pay for nukes or the stupid gulf wars so we would be around 50 billion in the black.

inorder to succed you need to be legally allowed to do it, shetland and orkney are not likely to get permission from the scottish goverment to do so.
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Interesting point you make there. So let me see if I have this correct. The deficit built up by the successive Labour governments of 1997 to 2010, which were elected with the help of the majority of the Scottish people, and which arose under a Scottish MP as chancellor (Gordon Brown), had nothing to do with the Scots? It seems to me that even when you get the "government Scotland voted for" you still don't like it. Oh, wait. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the government "you" voted for was SNP? Well you don't seriously expect them to form a Westminster government do you? I forget the exact number of SNP MPs Scotland returned in 2010; something like 6 wasn't it?

And so the argument you advance for Scotland's "freedom" (self determination) does not apply to Orkney and Shetland? Well of course not…think about all their oil. Best be careful, I understand they regard themselves more as Norse, not Scottish.
 
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ST4 said:
"Our" country is actually a part of Britain. The British electorate, which you are a part of, didn't vote the way you and some of the electorate didn't like?

Maybe South Yorkshire should break away from Britain because the Torys got in and not labour.
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Steve, maybe they should. That is the entire point of the discussion.

A bunch of people collectively named "Yorkshire" have pitched their lot in with the UK, presumably because it is believed to be best for them. If they decide it has become net negative for them, or they want to go in another direction then they absolutely should consider it as an option. People should not be so blinkered as to not consider what their options are. The ultimate test of a free society is whether you can leave - if you cannot, it is not a free society. So if Yorkshire (or Orkney, or Shetland) believed they would be better served with another approach I would absolutely support that thinking.

Whether it can be successful or not is an entirely different concept - it takes a lot to run a region, even more to make it's way in the world. But if the status quo continues to serve up consequences that no longer fit, then it would be strange not to consider alternatives.
 
POAH said:
how else do you get money from the oil other than taxation? The UK goverment doesn't drill for it.

Sorry but England isn't the only country we export to so not sure why all the nonsense about water in the lake district. We exportt Aerospace & Naval Systems, Barley, Buses, Business & Financial Services, Chemical Products, Computers, Computer Software, Electricity, Electronics, Fish, Irn–Bru, Oil & Gas, Pharmaceuticals, Potatoes, Renewable Energy, Scotch Whisky, Ships, Shortbread, Textiles, Timber, Water to the USA, Europe and the rest of the world. 3.5 billion to the USA alone in 2011

The scottish Economy is better than the rUK overall plus Scotland provided 9.4% of total UK revenues and got 'only' 9.2% of UK public spending in return. if you don't take into account certain tax then yes we do appear to take more than we make but it should be pointed out that is not the only part of the UK that is currently spending more than it raises in revenues.

If scotland had been independant at the last referendum we would not have had to share the massive debt built up by 30 years of successive crap UK governments, would not have had to pay for nukes or the stupid gulf wars so we would be around 50 billion in the black.

inorder to succed you need to be legally allowed to do it, shetland and orkney are not likely to get permission from the scottish goverment to do so.
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How would the oil have got extracted had it not been for the investment of British companies in the area?

It is British oil, not Scottish or Shetlands/Orkneys. I'd laugh if a yes vote happened then Shetland campaigned from freedom from Scotland and got its independence. What could the scots do about it, not give permission for it the way rUK has given permission for this farce in September.
 
chadders said:
Interesting point you make there. So let me see if I have this correct. The deficit built up by the successive Labour governments of 1997 to 2010, which were elected with the help of the majority of the Scottish people, and which arose under a Scottish MP as chancellor (Gordon Brown), had nothing to do with the Scots? It seems to me that even when you get the "government Scotland voted for" you still don't like it. Oh, wait. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the government "you" voted for was SNP? Well you don't seriously expect them to form a Westminster government do you? I forget the exact number of SNP MPs Scotland returned in 2010; something like 6 wasn't it?

And so the argument you advance for Scotland's "freedom" (self determination) does not apply to Orkney and Shetland? Well of course not…think about all their oil. Best be careful, I understand they regard themselves more as Norse, not Scottish.
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not really sure what point you are trying to make other than you can't count.
 
chadders said:
Interesting point you make there. So let me see if I have this correct. The deficit built up by the successive Labour governments of 1997 to 2010, which were elected with the help of the majority of the Scottish people, and which arose under a Scottish MP as chancellor (Gordon Brown), had nothing to do with the Scots? It seems to me that even when you get the "government Scotland voted for" you still don't like it. Oh, wait. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the government "you" voted for was SNP? Well you don't seriously expect them to form a Westminster government do you? I forget the exact number of SNP MPs Scotland returned in 2010; something like 6 wasn't it?

And so the argument you advance for Scotland's "freedom" (self determination) does not apply to Orkney and Shetland? Well of course not…think about all their oil. Best be careful, I understand they regard themselves more as Norse, not Scottish.
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One - in 1997-2001-2005 Labour would have won the elections even without any Scots votes so you can't blame us for that. In fact it's the Blair Brown governments that made many Scots Labour members and voters realise that 'New Labour' was nothing more than toryism in disguise. This was part of the reason for a massive defection from Labour to SNP in 2011 Scottish elections.

Two - You understand wrong, the Northern Isles are very pro independence, scare stories about them breaking away were not true during the last referendum and are not true now.
 
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ST4 said:
How would the oil have got extracted had it not been for the investment of British companies in the area?

It is British oil, not Scottish or Shetlands/Orkneys. I'd laugh if a yes vote happened then Shetland campaigned from freedom from Scotland and got its independence. What could the scots do about it, not give permission for it the way rUK has given permission for this farce in September.
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yes British companies not the British government extracted the oil. the only way the government gets money from oil
is tax. tax from the oil currently goes to Westminster, with Scottish independence that tax goes to the Scottish government. tbh I really can't believe I'm actually having to explain this to an adult
 
POAH said:
yes British companies not the British government extracted the oil. the only way the government gets money from oil
is tax. tax from the oil currently goes to Westminster, with Scottish independence that tax goes to the Scottish government. tbh I really can't believe I'm actually having to explain this to an adult
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It's tax collected in Britain going to the British government. Where the oil is found is irrelevant to me. It's in Britain that is all that matters. I don't see why you have a bee in your bonnet about this?
 
Thee's none so blind as those who will not see.
 
Steep said:
Two - You understand wrong, the Northern Isles are very pro independence.
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Where on earth did you get that from?


It is in fact the total opposite, they are in favour of the status quo , not the other way round
 
POAH said:
not really sure what point you are trying to make other than you can't count.
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You obviously have nothing of any real importance to contribute to the debate, other than the usual "it's everybody else's fault, nothing to with us guv". Quite pathetic really.

Steep said:
One - in 1997-2001-2005 Labour would have won the elections even without any Scots votes so you can't blame us for that. In fact it's the Blair Brown governments that made many Scots Labour members and voters realise that 'New Labour' was nothing more than toryism in disguise. This was part of the reason for a massive defection from Labour to SNP in 2011 Scottish elections.

Two - You understand wrong, the Northern Isles are very pro independence, scare stories about them breaking away were not true during the last referendum and are not true now.
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You've proved my point. The argument about not getting the government you want is specious. You vote Labour at three consecutive elections and get Labour. It turns out we get a rubbish administration but because voters in England and Wales voted the same way as you it's all our fault. It's never you, is it? If you were so dissatisfied with Blair after his first term, why keep voting for him?

As I said earlier, please vote YES and do us all a favour. At least it'll stop the eternal whinging.
 
chadders said:
As I said earlier, please vote YES and do us all a favour. At least it'll stop the eternal whinging.
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The more specious rubbish like this you post the more Scots are likely to vote yes just to be away from you.
 
Steep said:
The more specious rubbish like this you post the more Scots are likely to vote yes just to be away from you.
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I'm counting on it Hughie.

BTW I note your bile is spilling over into another thread as well now.
 
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chadders said:
I'm counting on it Hughie.

BTW I note your bile is spilling over into another thread as well now.
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Lets leave other threads to themselves, if you want to pick me up on something in another thread, do it there.
 
ST4 said:
It's tax collected in Britain going to the British government. Where the oil is found is irrelevant to me. It's in Britain that is all that matters. I don't see why you have a bee in your bonnet about this?
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eh? what are you on about?
 
chadders said:
You obviously have nothing of any real importance to contribute to the debate, other than the usual "it's everybody else's fault, nothing to with us guv". Quite pathetic really.
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I'm really lost as to what you are talking about.
 
POAH said:
I'm really lost as to what you are talking about.
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Obviously this thread is beyond you. Currently Hugh and I are indulging in a little bit of friendly, cross border banter. Feel free to join in as soon as you have something intelligent and relevant to add.
 
POAH said:
for starters yorkshire is a county not a country, so yes it is different.
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So then can the North East of England go for independence? As the Kingdom of Northumbria was independent of England for hundreds of years...

If we do, can we have our occupied territory around (and including) Edinburgh back? ;)
 
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The North East, North West, Yorkshire, Lancashire, basically anywhere north of Watford will be welcome to come along with us :)
 
Steep said:
I know people on both Island groups, friends and work colleagues.
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Funny that so do I

The work collogues, friends and family I speak to on a daily basis say different, all of them born and bred, business and land owners - so yeah I know who I would rather believe

Steep said:
Not grown up any in the last couple of days I see.
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Really Hugh you are such a hypocrite do you know that?

The reason I have not taken part in this thread much is because it is obvious you haven't got a clue really and just want to twist things to suit you and your cause and when you cant do that you just ignore the questions being asked.
 
Ok Keith, I'll just stop responding to anything you post from now on and you can do me the same favour.
 
chadders said:
Obviously this thread is beyond you. Currently Hugh and I are indulging in a little bit of friendly, cross border banter. Feel free to join in as soon as you have something intelligent and relevant to add.
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well as soon as you actually make relevant comments based on people's replys then sure I'll respond but untill you do then I wouldn't be able to add anything intelligent. Suppose thats what you are used to listening to the no ccampaign :(
 
Dave1 said:
So then can the North East of England go for independence? As the Kingdom of Northumbria was independent of England for hundreds of years...

If we do, can we have our occupied territory around (and including) Edinburgh back? ;)
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as a glaswegian I don't mind if you reclaim Edinburgh lol
 
POAH said:
well as soon as you actually make relevant comments based on people's replys then sure I'll respond but untill you do then I wouldn't be able to add anything intelligent. Suppose thats what you are used to listening to the no ccampaign :(
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As I said feel free to join in when you have something relevant to add… Hugh, where were we?
 
chadders said:
As I said feel free to join in when you have something relevant to add… Hugh, where were we?
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and like I said I will when you post somthing other than pointless tat aimed at me rather than the actual discussion.
 
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