An Independent Scotland?

[Steep]

Snip Spain could Veto it and now France aswell) and then we would dictate to another democracy (the rest of the UK) about a currency union that he would never allow or want them to have a vote on.

Andy, it will not happen! No existing EU member will veto a membership request from Scotland if one should even be needed. Spain particularly will never veto one because they would lose their fishing rights in Scottish waters, a major deal for them.

Don't forget that Scotland as part of the UK has been an EU member for over forty years and more than meets the requirements for membership.

 

[AndyB1976]

I don't disagree with you on the EU Andy, as I've already said on this thread there are other options. I don't have to agree with every SNP policy to vote yes in the referendum. You're not seeing the long term picture, 'if' we join Europe and 'if' we stay with the pound it doesn't have to be permanent, we can always choose to leave either one if we find them too constraining. My thought is vote yes, get the job done and fix what needs fixing later as and when it needs fixing. What I don't understand is why anyone would think that staying under the thumb of Westminster is a viable option when that institution has repeatedly shown it's disregard for anyone outside of the South East of England, the further North the less they care.

Fair point. The problem with democracy is the minority will always feel under the thump. I never voted ConDem and I never voted SNP and now I am being governed, taxed and essentially divided by something I never voted for. What should I do?

It would be great to chop and change currency and governance if it wasn't in our interest, but presumably our trading interests are in the UK and the EU. I think playing hardball here is no way for a future Scotland to prosper.

 

[AndyB1976]

Andy, it will not happen! No existing EU member will veto a membership request from Scotland if one should even be needed. Spain particularly will never veto one because they would lose their fishing rights in Scottish waters, a major deal for them.

Don't forget that Scotland as part of the UK has been an EU member for over forty years and more than meets the requirements for membership.

Can you see why as a proud Scot I want to know why we have Spanish trawlers in our water and why Salmond wants to take us further into the EU. Its our water, the British Isles, get them out.

EDIT

If fishing is a natural resource like oil, who is to stop the EU dictating on whom can extract that?

 

[jakeblu]

also on a related subject scotland has a parliment that looks after their interests , so does wales, so does NI - but england doesnt, we have only the westminster party which has to consider the wishes of all of the uk - maybe we should have an english parliment composed only of english consituency MPs , then all four countries can be independent

Regional assemblies were proposed by Labour, but a referendum in NE England (this area was deemed to be the region most in favour) was soundly rejected.

Steve

 

[Steep]

As an EU member Spain has some rights to fish in our waters, if we were no longer part of the EU they would lose those rights. Spain in particular has over supported its fishing industry, where the UK governments have progressively given away our fishermens living the Spanish have gone to great lengths to protect theirs and will not jeopardise that.

 

[AndyB1976]

As an EU member Spain has some rights to fish in our waters, if we were no longer part of the EU they would lose those rights. Spain in particular has over supported its fishing industry, where the UK governments have progressively given away our fishermens living the Spanish have gone to great lengths to protect theirs and will not jeopardise that.

So the Scots fisherman are happy with that? Being dictated to by Brussels, that Spain have the right?

Do you honestly think Spain with the coastline it has is that bothered? It would facilitate and empower Basque and Catalan separatists movements to tear its country apart for a few baskets of langoustines?

 

[FourRingCircus]

Utterly uninformed bigoted tripe which displays exactly why many Scots want away from this mindset

Cameron swinging people to vote yes whilst Salmond continues to do wonders for the no campaign.

I can't understand why anything Salmond says would swing people to the No side. There is nothing POSITIVE for Scotland there. The question in September is a fundamental one which transcends party politics or individuals.

An analogy.......mixing politics and religion......

Do you believe that there is a God and want to enter his kingdom?

If you are religious, you will say Yes.

If the person asking the question is a Jehovah-Witness, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu, Catholic [*pick whatever religion or sub-division does not suit your beliefs], do you answer No, or renounce your religion?

What I'm getting at is that whilst Alex Salmond is the First Minister just now, an independent Scotland 'may' see him out of the game altogether. You are not voting for or against Salmond.

ALL the traditional parties are against independence because it suits them for different reasons:

Conservative: These guys are pragmatic and business-minded. They will not let-go of a cash-cow revenue stream. They can even use their superior intellect to suggest that they are caring for the weak, the poor and the disadvantaged, becasue after all, Scotland is to wee and too poor to look after itself and if we say that often enough, everybody will believe us.

Labour: All but one of the Scottish MP's are from the left of centre. In the old days, Labour virtually saw the whole of Scotland as a safe 59 seats. Last time round they lost out to the Lib Dems and SNP's in a number of areas, but still a massive majority of the Scottish MP's are Labour. Needless to say, this greatly increases the chances of a Labour win at Westminster.

LibDem: Whatever the two parties above say we will agree with as there is no middle ground between them. Besides, we have a good few MP's in Scotland which strengthen our chances of getting the nose in the Westminster cabinet trough.

If anyone cares to read my assertions (which I'll put here if requested), I can prove how Scotland will be circa £9,000,000,000.00 better off at the stroke of a pen (pencil) in September. Given our current (UK based) income of £45-50Bn, that represents a 19% increase in a Scottish account for Yes v No.

Furthermore, I can show that all the current bluster about the £ or the EU is exactly that - political posturing. EVERYTHING will be negotiated in the event of a YES and everything you are seeing up to now from the 'establishment' is designed to frighten you into a No.

 

[Steep]

Tom Hunter said it best I think, "Scotlands future is too important to leave it to politicians".

 

[FourRingCircus]

Tom Hunter said it best I think, "Scotlands future is too important to leave it to politicians".

This is one thing I actually like about Alex Salmond. He is a far more skilled and competent man than the press portray him. He is more than a match for any of the incumbents at Westminster. (BTW, Why do folks in the south appear to have faith in Westminster politicians?)

An economics graduate of St.Andrews, Alex Salmond started in his working life as Assistant Economist in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland. Two years later he joined the 'private sector' when he was employed as staff by RBS and worked there for seven years becoming the banks economist and oil economist.

Contrast this with George Osborne who after a stint as an NHS data entry clerk, only lasted in the 'private sector' for one week where his job was re-folding towels at Selfridges.

I may not be Alex Salmonds best supporter, but I very much respect him in this regard. He could tear a spare ar$ehole for Cameron in the space of ten minutes and THIS is why 'Call me Dave' won't face him.

 

[BRASH]

This is one thing I actually like about Alex Salmond. He is a far more skilled and competent man than the press portray him. He is more than a match for any of the incumbents at Westminster. (BTW, Why do folks in the south appear to have faith in Westminster politicians?)

An economics graduate of St.Andrews, Alex Salmond started in his working life as Assistant Economist in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland. Two years later he joined the 'private sector' when he was employed as staff by RBS and worked there for seven years becoming the banks economist and oil economist.

Contrast this with George Osborne who after a stint as an NHS data entry clerk, only lasted in the 'private sector' for one week where his job was re-folding towels at Selfridges.

I may not be Alex Salmonds best supporter, but I very much respect him in this regard. He could tear a spare ar$ehole for Cameron in the space of ten minutes and THIS is why 'Call me Dave' won't face him.

.............or is it because he's a more articulate liar??

 

[FourRingCircus]

You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment. However, I suspect Brian that you are one of those 'glass half empty' chaps who has been around long enough and seen enough to have every reason to be cynical. I reckon that in a previous life, you'd be all for giving two fingers up to Westminster (just like the avatar). That said, you are probably resigned to the potential for more of the same emanating from Edinburgh. On the other hand, I still have hope........

 

[BRASH]

You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment. However, I suspect Brian that you are one of those 'glass half empty' chaps who has been around long enough and seen enough to have every reason to be cynical. I reckon that in a previous life, you'd be all for giving two fingers up to Westminster (just like the avatar). That said, you are probably resigned to the potential for more of the same emanating from Edinburgh. On the other hand, I still have hope........

I can be described as many things but half empty ain't one of them. If we get independence all hope will be gone. The End (literally)

 

[Uneducated_Rick]

Does anyone have any information/forecasting/guesswork on what Scotland will lose out on financially if they go independent.

I know under the current system Scottish taxpayers put in more than they get out, but once they are independent will this still be the case?

Potential issues around being EU members or not?
Issues around currency and higher interest rates on loans at the national level?
Extra costs for border controls? I doubt this would be an issue really
Defence - infrastructure and bodies
A lot more bureaucracy and the cost of setting up (or expanding where partial powers are granted) new departments and organisations

Would be interesting if anyone has this information and what net effect it would have on Scotland's finances

 

[LCPete]

I can be described as many things but half empty ain't one of them. If we get independence all hope will be gone. The End (literally)

Yes agree it would be a bad thing for the rest of the UK as well
We would all be worse off
I wonder if some of the Scottish people who are thinking of voting yes are doing it to get rid of the current UK government
Most of us in wales don't like them either but don't want to split up the UK

 

[AndyB1976]

John, are you sure there is nothing positive about being in the United Kingdom? Why is Salmond wanting to keep so much of the ties to the UK especially the pound? Why is he so concerned about England suddenly and how will England be so much worse off without the currency union, is he fighting our corner or theirs? Could it be that a market of 50M on their side of the border is of greater economic importance to us than 5M on our side of the border is to England?

Why would we negotiate with London and Brussels on independence. Salmond has already said we are getting the Pound and membership of the EU. Yes and it will happen - thats not negotiation, thats called a fact in Alex's wee world.

Let me sum up negotiation Salmond style;

AS: We are having this and this!
rUK&EU: No
AS: Yes we are.
Here endeth Salmond's idea of how negotiation works.

An economics graduate of St.Andrews, Alex Salmond started in his working life as Assistant Economist in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland. Two years later he joined the 'private sector' when he was employed as staff by RBS and worked there for seven years becoming the banks economist and oil economist.

Contrast this with George Osborne who after a stint as an NHS data entry clerk, only lasted in the 'private sector' for one week where his job was re-folding towels at Selfridges.

Is that the same Alex Salmond the was the banking sectors biggest supporter, the same RBS and BOS that would have destroyed Scotland?

Same man that wanted us in the Euro when the going was good and now wants in Sterling because the going is good (well except if you think there is nothing positive in the UK).
Same man thats happy in the EU, giving Spain fishing rights to our water and an ex Fisheries Minister too.
Same man that wanted us to be a part of the North Atlantic's Arc of Prosperity, with Ireland and Iceland being the economic beacons of what Scotland could be. Yes of what Scotland could be eh.
Same man that claims it as Scotland's oil yet the UK defended it from Nazis Germany and Soviet Socialist Russian with superb armed forces, intelligence service and Trident deterrent else we wouldn't be here to discuss it, nevermind vote on it - all of that he wants to shred.

Salmond the master of hindsight, his economic forecasts have been proved farcical. The white paper should be sponsored by Andrex, its only good for sh*te paper.

Rab C. Nesbitt the perfect posterboy for the Yes campaign, I had to reread thinking it was for the No campaign lol. The future for Salmond's Nationalistic Socialistic Dream. Yote YES.

The No camp don't need to campaign anymore. Cameron doesn't need to debate, its pure democracy him letting us decide. Any semi-literate Scot could rip Salmond a hole so big that it would turn him inside out.

 

[FourRingCircus]

Does anyone have any information/forecasting/guesswork on what Scotland will lose out on financially if they go independent.
I know under the current system Scottish taxpayers put in more than they get out, but once they are independent will this still be the case?

(This post might appear patronising, but I assure you it's meant to be light hearted!)

Congratulations! You are already more enlightened than the vast bulk of the populous south of the border. I'd guess you are not uneducated at all (despite what you call yourself), though I'm presuming that arithmetic isn't the strongest point. Let me explain.

You are in the supermarket and you have five apples in your basket. The supermarket manager says even though you are paying for five, you can only keep them in a carrier bag and you can only take home four. Instead, you tell him to stick his carrier bag where the sun don't shine and you carry all five apples outside without the bag....... How many apples do you have outside to take home?

Would be interesting if anyone has this information and what net effect it would have on Scotland's finances

Perhaps you need to look into the McCrone report...... a UK government document suppressed by both Conservative and Labour administrations in the 1970s because of its explosive revelations about the potential wealth of an independent Scotland. In 1974 a leading Government economist, Professor Gavin McCrone, wrote a report which stated that Scotland would have had “embarrassingly” large tax surpluses as a result of the North Sea oil boom. Lord Healey’s Labour government decided to keep that document under wraps by marking it 'Top Secret' until it was eventually released in 2005 under the 30 year rule and the freedom of information act. Reflecting on this time, Lord Healey said:“I think we did underplay the value of the oil to the country because of the threat of nationalism but that was mainly down to Thatcher. We didn’t actually see the rewards from oil in my period in office because we were investing in the infrastructure rather than getting the returns and, really, Thatcher wouldn’t have been able to carry out any of her policies without that additional five per cent on GDP from oil. Incredible good luck she had from that.”

There was a Scottish referendum in 1979 which was won by the Yes vote, but the Thatcher government moved the goalpoats after the result and said that they required a greater turnout of voters to respect the result.

Yes agree it would be a bad thing for the rest of the UK as well We would all be worse off. I wonder if some of the Scottish people who are thinking of voting yes are doing it to get rid of the current UK government
Most of us in wales don't like them either but don't want to split up the UK

I think you will find that most of us are voting YES to get rid of Westminster government full stop. As happened before (see above) and is happening today with all the (opposing?) parties singing from the same hymn sheet about Scotland, we see that the Scottish interests cannot be served by a Westminster administration. The difference between Scotland and Wales, is perhaps a more passionate national identity and a greater cultural difference that exists between north and south Britain.

 

[Steep]

I'm voting yes because I'm fed up of being a second class citizen, those of us who grew up in the 60s and 70s will remember the attitude that prevailed then in government and in the media that the Scots just weren't capable. It sounds like whining but we got no credit when we did well and were constantly put down in every aspect of life. This was originally an intentional thing stemming from the years after the failed uprisings when there was a concerted effort to destroy anything 'Scottish', after many years it simply became the norm to do. Since the 70s things have improved enormously in the media but Westminster still regards us up here as a test bed for unpopular policies and less worthy than others.

 

[FourRingCircus]

The No camp don't need to campaign anymore. Cameron doesn't need to debate, its pure democracy him letting us decide. Any semi-literate Scot could rip Salmond a hole so big that it would turn him inside out.

Andy, lets agree to disagree. The latest ICM poll sees the Yes camp at 47% v No at 53%, with a recent 6-point swing to Yes. If you suggest that the No voices don't need to campaign at this juncture...... then I doubt any semi-literate Scot would agree with you! As for David 'Call me Dave, We love you don't go' Cameron, standing on a podium in an empty London stadium asking the people of England, Wales & N.I. to phone their friends in Scotland and tell them to vote NO whilst saying it's a democratic matter for Scots only because "I'm not getting involved" is blind hypocrisy that any illiterate Scot can see. Finally, whilst I'm not Alex Salmonds greatest supporter (I'm actually 'the' Tartan Tory), I think you underestimate the man at your peril. David Cameron knows better than you and that's why he can't face-up to him and rip any holes. Anyway, the debate and the vote is not about Alex Salmond. If we vote Yes, we can just as easily (and democratically) not vote him into government.

 

[BRASH]

Andy, lets agree to disagree. The latest ICM poll sees the Yes camp at 47% v No at 53%, with a recent 6-point swing to Yes. If you suggest that the No voices don't need to campaign at this juncture...... then I doubt any semi-literate Scot would agree with you! As for David 'Call me Dave, We love you don't go' Cameron, standing on a podium in an empty London stadium asking the people of England, Wales & N.I. to phone their friends in Scotland and tell them to vote NO whilst saying it's a democratic matter for Scots only because "I'm not getting involved" is blind hypocrisy that any illiterate Scot can see. Finally, whilst I'm not Alex Salmonds greatest supporter (I'm actually 'the' Tartan Tory), I think you underestimate the man at your peril. David Cameron knows better than you and that's why he can't face-up to him and rip any holes. Anyway, the debate and the vote is not about Alex Salmond. If we vote Yes, we can just as easily (and democratically) not vote him into government.

Bloody Tartan Tory. There is nothing worse and if you'd answer yer damn fone I'd tell you so direct to yer lugs

 

[Steep]

Cameron doesn't need to debate, its pure democracy him letting us decide. Any semi-literate Scot could rip Salmond a hole so big that it would turn him inside out.

Your point about Cameron would be valid if he actually was sitting back and letting democracy take it's course but he's not. He's sniping from the sidelines, him Osborne and others, all the while saying "no no it's not our business to interfere". They should put up or shut up, join the debate honestly or stand back and stop feeding their little soundbites to the media.

 

[FourRingCircus]

Bloody Tartan Tory. There is nothing worse and if you'd answer yer damn fone I'd tell you so direct to yer lugs

Yup,..... I'm right of right-wing! What I'd like to see after a yes vote is a Scottish MaggieT as First Minister!!!

I'm in the office and my mobile is in the house on the lounge table (assuming you've been calling that). Anyway, I'm spending far too much time on forums when I should be working.......

 

[BRASH]

Yup,..... I'm right of right-wing! What I'd like to see after a yes vote is a Scottish MaggieT as First Minister!!!

I'm in the office and my mobile is in the house on the lounge table (assuming you've been calling that). Anyway, I'm spending far too much time on forums when I should be working.......

How convenient, I dinna hae yer office number. PM it to me and I'll call and give you dogs abuse. Effin' Maggie Thatcher indeed. No true Scot has any respect for that ogre!!!!

 

[FourRingCircus]

In the context of the 1979 independence vote, there is some artistic license here but the message is exactly as was delivered at the time:

The Westminster government tricked us after voting YES. However, the Scottish assembly happened (now the Scottish government) and it has only been a positive thing with a higher GDP per capita, lower unemployment and higher inward investment. Everything else on that list was a lie too. Mines were closed, Ravenscraig closed, Linwood closed, Bathgate in tatters and Dounreay empty.

Lies then and lies now.

 

[Moadib]

Is that the same Alex Salmond the was the banking sectors biggest supporter, the same RBS and BOS that would have destroyed Scotland?

Wouldn't necessarily have destroyed Scotland - we don't HAVE to take the mistakes of a private company onto the public tab. Indeed I believe any reasonable facsimile of capitalism would say we must not. If irrational exuberance is rewarded by bailing it out, we will get more irrational exuberance (as indeed we see today, albeit inevitable with the financialised world we have).

But I take the point on negotiation, however Salmond may feel at present that his strongest hand IS in the unknown. There's nothing on offer from the No vote side, just nebulous ideas that "if you stay with us, we'll give you more powers". We won't tell you what they are, nor commit to them, but honest, we'll make it worth your while. Hardly a wonder Salmond offers nothing in return.

The point though shouldn't be horse-trading a country - jesus, people have fought and died in the past even to try to gain their independence, what would they have given to be able to vote for it?! There will be NO truth prior to the vote - look at the lies peddled in past such campaigns, such as the McCrone report, or Blair moving Scotland's maritime boundaries in 1999. People looking for absolute facts....I'm sorry, but I doubt there will be any. It's just whether the people of Scotland want to be dependent, or independent. Right now they're dependent - do they wish to remain so?

 

[Uneducated_Rick]

(This post might appear patronising, but I assure you it's meant to be light hearted!)

Congratulations! You are already more enlightened than the vast bulk of the populous south of the border. I'd guess you are not uneducated at all (despite what you call yourself), though I'm presuming that arithmetic isn't the strongest point. Let me explain.

You are in the supermarket and you have five apples in your basket. The supermarket manager says even though you are paying for five, you can only keep them in a carrier bag and you can only take home four. Instead, you tell him to stick his carrier bag where the sun don't shine and you carry all five apples outside without the bag....... How many apples do you have outside to take home?


Perhaps you need to look into the McCrone report...... a UK government document suppressed by both Conservative and Labour administrations in the 1970s because of its explosive revelations about the potential wealth of an independent Scotland. In 1974 a leading Government economist, Professor Gavin McCrone, wrote a report which stated that Scotland would have had “embarrassingly” large tax surpluses as a result of the North Sea oil boom. Lord Healey’s Labour government decided to keep that document under wraps by marking it 'Top Secret' until it was eventually released in 2005 under the 30 year rule and the freedom of information act. Reflecting on this time, Lord Healey said:“I think we did underplay the value of the oil to the country because of the threat of nationalism but that was mainly down to Thatcher. We didn’t actually see the rewards from oil in my period in office because we were investing in the infrastructure rather than getting the returns and, really, Thatcher wouldn’t have been able to carry out any of her policies without that additional five per cent on GDP from oil. Incredible good luck she had from that.”[/quote]

Arithmetic is fine, writing down my thought process is what is struggling.

Tax out > tax in will still be the case assuming everything else is constant. I was trying to ascertain what effects there will be from the other points I raised have.

Will they effect the amount of tax paid? Will businesses & individuals still be putting in the same? Things like Trident will be a huge cost that will have to be decided and potentially split between Scotland and the UK.

As for the McCrone report, I'll take quick gander but is a 40~50 year old report valid for the current economic climate?

 

[AndyB1976]

Wouldn't necessarily have destroyed Scotland - we don't HAVE to take the mistakes of a private company onto the public tab. Indeed I believe any reasonable facsimile of capitalism would say we must not. If irrational exuberance is rewarded by bailing it out, we will get more irrational exuberance (as indeed we see today, albeit inevitable with the financialised world we have).

But I take the point on negotiation, however Salmond may feel at present that his strongest hand IS in the unknown. There's nothing on offer from the No vote side, just nebulous ideas that "if you stay with us, we'll give you more powers". We won't tell you what they are, nor commit to them, but honest, we'll make it worth your while. Hardly a wonder Salmond offers nothing in return.

The point though shouldn't be horse-trading a country - jesus, people have fought and died in the past even to try to gain their independence, what would they have given to be able to vote for it?! There will be NO truth prior to the vote - look at the lies peddled in past such campaigns, such as the McCrone report, or Blair moving Scotland's maritime boundaries in 1999. People looking for absolute facts....I'm sorry, but I doubt there will be any. It's just whether the people of Scotland want to be dependent, or independent. Right now they're dependent - do they wish to remain so?

Its not just any private company, it underpins the economy, it underpins society. If the UK thought they could dump it why didn't they?

£2000 was the savings limit ceiling, then a percentage of what was left if the banks went bust if I recall correctly. Take liquidity out the system, how does society operate, what happens to interest rates, mortgages and investments, the capitalistic enterprises that fund the socialist values that we strive to keep, things like the NHS and state pensions.

The No campaign don't need to say what they are offering, its already on the table, already living it. If you don't fancy that then fair enough, if you automatically believe whatever Salmond offers is better then you'll never be converted. No one is defending his economic track record that I mentioned, yet everyone else is saying how much better Scotland will be with him at the reigns.

Just to clear up about facts and lies. It been said here that all/most politicians are liars (not necessarily disagreeing here), even one attributed to Salmond himself. Are we telling the undecided voters in the absence of facts that Scots lies are better for you than EU/UK lies?

I'll give you a fact and I'll give you a lie, which I've already said previously;

We are not voting for Independence, we are are voting to be governed to Germany and fiscally restrained by England. Thats not independence no matter how you cut it, we will be more dependent than ever in this scenario because we can't vote on or influence Westminister, something that we can do just now.

 

[AndyB1976]

Andy, lets agree to disagree. The latest ICM poll sees the Yes camp at 47% v No at 53%, with a recent 6-point swing to Yes. If you suggest that the No voices don't need to campaign at this juncture...... then I doubt any semi-literate Scot would agree with you! As for David 'Call me Dave, We love you don't go' Cameron, standing on a podium in an empty London stadium asking the people of England, Wales & N.I. to phone their friends in Scotland and tell them to vote NO whilst saying it's a democratic matter for Scots only because "I'm not getting involved" is blind hypocrisy that any illiterate Scot can see. Finally, whilst I'm not Alex Salmonds greatest supporter (I'm actually 'the' Tartan Tory), I think you underestimate the man at your peril. David Cameron knows better than you and that's why he can't face-up to him and rip any holes. Anyway, the debate and the vote is not about Alex Salmond. If we vote Yes, we can just as easily (and democratically) not vote him into government.

Your point about Cameron would be valid if he actually was sitting back and letting democracy take it's course but he's not. He's sniping from the sidelines, him Osborne and others, all the while saying "no no it's not our business to interfere". They should put up or shut up, join the debate honestly or stand back and stop feeding their little soundbites to the media.

No probs, I am not arguing with you guys personally I am only arguing the point.

So that's the issue, Cameron getting involved from the side lines lol.

You have totally ignored the absolutely essential arguments, the valid points about the union, about our history, about his shambolic economic forecasting, our powers surrendered to Europe, our powers surrendered to the English pound. This is what matters, not what some Englander is doing or saying in his own country, freedom of speech and all that. Unless you are saying we should repress the freedom of speech when you don't like what you hear? Lest we forget the UK sacrifices last century to give those freedoms.

Cameron knows that a United Kingdom has greater power in the EU, NATO and the UN where we have a VETO. He is putting is own party at risk the very next year of being booted out by the Scots vote in order to secure a better future for us all..

Talking about soundbites, Cameron wants to remain united, all he has asked is for people to recognise what we have and what is great about it. Thats it, end of.

Now lets look at Salmond's soundbites, the guy who claims the Scots are getting bullied, that England are spreading Project Fear. Now lets consider this, the whole world are watching and this man, the leader of Scotland is making us look childish, pathetic and feeble. Have you ever seen another leader claim such tosh, have you ever known any Scot to be bullied, scared or subjugated by an outsider? We always lead the front line, we don't do fear.

 

[jakeblu]

There's no good news for Scottish independence in the polls no matter how you might dress it up. You may have had a small boost from osbournes interference and shifted some of the don't knows into the yes camp but it's still not enough. I believe the average lead for better together campaign is 20% over the last few months. If the Tories had that lead in the polls here I would be on anti-depressants Oh and btw labour do not need Scotland to form a majority they would have managed without them in the 97/2001/2005 elections. I am not against Scottish independence if that's really what you want I'm just not convinced that the majority of scots do but time will tell.

Steve

Edit my source for the polling info
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/...endence-forecasts-insig-idUKBREA1G0XS20140217
It doesn't make pleasant reading for the nationalists but like I say time will tell

Andy, lets agree to disagree. The latest ICM poll sees the Yes camp at 47% v No at 53%, with a recent 6-point swing to Yes. If you suggest that the No voices don't need to campaign at this juncture...... then I doubt any semi-literate Scot would agree with you! As for David 'Call me Dave, We love you don't go' Cameron, standing on a podium in an empty London stadium asking the people of England, Wales & N.I. to phone their friends in Scotland and tell them to vote NO whilst saying it's a democratic matter for Scots only because "I'm not getting involved" is blind hypocrisy that any illiterate Scot can see. Finally, whilst I'm not Alex Salmonds greatest supporter (I'm actually 'the' Tartan Tory), I think you underestimate the man at your peril. David Cameron knows better than you and that's why he can't face-up to him and rip any holes. Anyway, the debate and the vote is not about Alex Salmond. If we vote Yes, we can just as easily (and democratically) not vote him into government.

 

[DaveS2]

If the majority of Scottish people wish to leave the Union, then let them go, as that's democracy.

However, I'm not so sure that the majority actually want to, and only the vote will tell.

I have quite a few Scottish friends, some living in Scotland, who say they will vote no, but of course they don't represent the majority.

Personally, I believe that fragmenting this island is wrong.

I have traced my English family history back to the 1500's, but further back in time, my ancestors could well be Norman, Scandinavian (Viking or Dane), Scottish, Welsh, or even Roman. However, I class myself as British, and proud to be so.

My ancestors fought and died alongside Scots and Welshmen in two world wars. They fought as one nation, Britain, not as a country divided.

If Scotland leaves the Union, then I think it will be a sad day for the country as a whole, but if that's what they want, then so be it.

Dave

 

[Steep]

I have quite a few Scottish friends, some living in Scotland, who say they will vote no,

Just a quick point there, only those acually resident in Scotland (or on active service) will be eligible to vote. A Scot with their home anywhere else does not get to take part.

 

[onomatopoeia]

(BTW, Why do folks in the south appear to have faith in Westminster politicians?)

Who have you spoken to in "the south" (is that Glasgow? or further south, e.g. Gretna?) to give you that idea?

You won't find much faith in politicians if you go as far south as England, for example. There are a few I have time for e.g. Frank Field and David Davis, but my faith in many of them is extremely limited.

I don't want dissolution of the union, but I would like to see the West Lothian question resolved (Tam Dalyell is another one I have time for, even though I disagree with him about almost everything). The Scotland Act 1998 singularly failed to do so, or even to address the issue at all.

 

[FourRingCircus]

There's no good news for Scottish independence in the polls no matter how you might dress it up.

Really? Your polling data is rather 'historical' I think.......

I believe the average lead for better together campaign is 20% over the last few months.

No point in looking at data from a few months ago, here's the most recent polling for you (from the same source, in the interests of objectivity:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/20/uk-scotland-independence-poll-idUKBREA1J00I20140220

"It showed the gap between those who would vote for or against independence in a referendum scheduled for September 18 had narrowed to 9 percentage points from 20 points."

It most certainly DOES make pleasant reading for the nationalists, the momentum is most certainly with the Yes side and there's seven months to go

 

[BRASH]

It most certainly DOES make pleasant reading for the nationalists, the momentum is most certainly with the Yes side

No it's not you poor deluded fool. It'll never happen. Give up, you're on a road to nowhere. I'll bet my bank balance against yours it won't happen. See how confident you are now then.

 

[welshwizard645]

Yes agree it would be a bad thing for the rest of the UK as well
We would all be worse off
I wonder if some of the Scottish people who are thinking of voting yes are doing it to get rid of the current UK government
Most of us in wales don't like them either but don't want to split up the UK

Another North Walian here - want the UK intact. Much as we despair at Westminster I think that many Scots would shudder at the though of more power being concentrated along the M8, just like a lot of North Walians think that the Welsh Assembly has done nothing beyond the Heads of the Valleys Road. Born in Wales, Welsh family for generations yet we have more in common with Liverpool and Manschester.

Most Scots I speak with talk of Salmond just like Italians do of Berlusconi.... :censored:

 

[FourRingCircus]

Who have you spoken to in "the south" (is that Glasgow? or further south, e.g. Gretna?) to give you that idea?

I'll forgive your assumed arrogance and tell you that I was born in England, Educated along with (primarily) Etonians & Royals, worked in London and (noting your location) I know where to find Temple Meads. I wonder if you can display the same personal knowledge of 'north Briton'? Don't make the typical mistake of 'assuming', for it makes you the ass! I am well aware that there is also a disdain for Westminster outside of the London bubble. However, 'in the south' was referring to that bubble and it's environs. The point is that we have a chance to do something about the situation and I would much rather see (supportive) cheering about this, than is so often the case, snide remarks and bigotry.

I would like to see the West Lothian question resolved

As would I, and it will be once and for all with a YES vote.

 

[FourRingCircus]

No it's not you poor deluded fool. It'll never happen. Give up, you're on a road to nowhere.

If everyone had that attitude it wouldn't happen. (I won't print what you said on the phone yesterday about your 1979 vote to save you being a fool then )

I'll bet my bank balance against yours it won't happen. See how confident you are now then.

After you buying that lens, I'll see your £3.75 and raise you to a tenner and a pint!

 

[onomatopoeia]

I am well aware that there is also a disdain for Westminster outside of the London bubble.

There is plenty of it in London as well. I was born on the outskirts within three miles of a tube station, spent the early part of my working life there, still have family and friends there and visit regularly. Admittedly I was educated in state schools and my interaction with Etonians and the like was and is very limited.

The picture you paint of the city and the people is very different from the one I know.

 

[Yves Geza]

Who have you spoken to in "the south" (is that Glasgow? or further south, e.g. Gretna?) to give you that idea?

You won't find much faith in politicians if you go as far south as England, for example. There are a few I have time for e.g. Frank Field and David Davis, but my faith in many of them is extremely limited.

I don't want dissolution of the union, but I would like to see the West Lothian question resolved (Tam Dalyell is another one I have time for, even though I disagree with him about almost everything). The Scotland Act 1998 singularly failed to do so, or even to address the issue at all.

Like you, I listen when Messrs Field or Davis speak. They're two of the MPs, Tony Benn would describe as signposts rather than weather vanes, who point out truths even if they're not popular with the electorate.

Signpost versus weathervane does seem to be a problem in the Scottish Independence debate!

 

[BRASH]

If everyone had that attitude it wouldn't happen. (I won't print what you said on the phone yesterday about your 1979 vote to save you being a fool then )


After you buying that lens, I'll see your £3.75 and raise you to a tenner and a pint!

I don't drink!!

 

[Bernie174]

I'm not convinced by the 'Scotland is a better off Independent' line of the SNP's.

OK, accepting, because I don't have the time or inclination to dig through economic stats, tht the numbers are correct for tax generation in Scotland. Is that the whole story though?
For example, currently, the UK's 2 biggest warships are being put together (not built as such), so, there is a hidden subsidy there. An independent Scotland means no more RN contracts. OK, they may get orders at some point in the future small for small warships for the 'RSN', but that's probably not going to happen for a very long time, if the SNP's document on an Independent Scotland is to be believed.

Clyde Naval base, a big employer, again, bringing in income that will stop shortly after independence, will it be replaced by a RSN? I doubt it, it will simply be too small. The SNP call for an army of Brigade strength, so 2 Battalions of the current Royal Regiment of Scotland bite the dust, 3, if the Scots Guards are retained in the Scottish Order of Battle. another 1000+ without jobs. They claim they will have 12 Typhoons, really, BAE are likely to sting them very large time for the maintenance costs, more so, as the center for that is in England. That's assuming the Scots can afford the training requirement and cost of operation. But either way, some line techies, and support staff and the RSAF will be no more than a couple of 1000 people. Around 2000 less than operate the 2 RAF Stations in Scotland.

How many employees of English based companies will retain their jobs? I recall reading somewhere that in areas of Scotland up to 80% of employees work for the UK Civil Service. Those jobs will reduce in line with the population ratios, simply because although there will be a need for a Scot's Civil Service, it doesn't need to be the size the UK one is. Those jobs would, of political necessity be repatriated back to the new UK.

There's a lot of questions, which, luckily don't matter much to me, as I am not involved in this vote, but it does seem to me that there's a lot of things the SNP are telling the Scot's, which I doubt are that realistic.

Lastly, Independent? No, not if they join the EU, in effect they are swapping one master for another in which they will have (if they are let in), less say that they would have the current UK.