An Independent Scotland?

dejongj said:
So it is our own fault? Really? I guess you also agree that according to the guardian it wasn't the boy killing all those dogs, it was the owners who disbanded them that caused it...

Do you really think you can stand by the side lines? Heck Switserland, Norway to pick two mentioned a few times in this thread also seen action out in Afghanistan and the likes....But good luck to it...
Click to expand...
We judge them by our standards, think they are wrong, and invade to bring them round to our way of thinking.

By definition by their standards they must think we are wrong - therefore we must accept they will consider themselves to have the right to invade our country and try and change us? Sorry, but if an action is right (or wrong) for someone else, then it is equally right (or wrong) for us. Your logic may be different.
 
It would take quite a lot of planning and building and money to move. You'd be unlikely to have nuclear weapons being unloaded and loaded that close to cities with large populations.
Click to expand...

Not really, the infrastructure is already there. Some enlargement may be needed to accomadate the QE carriers. Apart from that Portsmouth is good to go for ship building, as are a number of other yards outside of Scotland.

Nucs are already built in a very densely populated area, Aldermaston Complex.

Portsmouth has a huge munitions complex anyway, and doubtless WE177's were kept there in the past. Storage isn't that much of an issue, might meet some local opposition but its a Navy town, so not as much as some other places so it's not that much of an issue to load missiles into the Boats there.
 
Moadib said:
We judge them by our standards, think they are wrong, and invade to bring them round to our way of thinking.

By definition by their standards they must think we are wrong - therefore we must accept they will consider themselves to have the right to invade our country and try and change us? Sorry, but if an action is right (or wrong) for someone else, then it is equally right (or wrong) for us. Your logic may be different.
Click to expand...
Doesn't give them the right to carry out the barbaric acts that they're carrying out though.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Doesn't give them the right to carry out the barbaric acts that they're carrying out though.
Click to expand...
By their standards we are the ones who have invaded their country, and are carrying out barbaric acts. We react badly to their barbaric acts - how do we expect them to react to ours? I personally agree it's barbaric - but if I don't want bitten by an angry dog, I don't go into it's kennel and start poking it with a stick.

All this is easy to say - it's the old "all wars are about GOD - Gold, Oil, & Drugs). Power wants to control resources, and it's arguably naive to think that will ever change. But while we agree what they are doing is barbaric, let's also recognise we are playing a large part in that. If the answer is "don't meddle in their country", we have a much better chance to achieve that as independent, rather than having Westminster change policy.
 
Bernie174 said:
Not really, the infrastructure is already there. Some enlargement may be needed to accomadate the QE carriers. Apart from that Portsmouth is good to go for ship building, as are a number of other yards outside of Scotland.

Nucs are already built in a very densely populated area, Aldermaston Complex.

Portsmouth has a huge munitions complex anyway, and doubtless WE177's were kept there in the past. Storage isn't that much of an issue, might meet some local opposition but its a Navy town, so not as much as some other places so it's not that much of an issue to load missiles into the Boats there.
Click to expand...

You would still have the problem of 200,000 people sitting a few miles away like in Plymouth:

Devonport Dockyard in Plymouth - the biggest private-sector employer in Devon and Cornwall - is the main nuclear repair and refuelling facility for the Royal Navy.

It is also home to the Trafalgar-class submarines, which will be moved to Faslane by 2017.

The port's size - the largest naval base in Western Europe covers more than 650 acres and has 15 dry docks, 25 tidal berths and five basins - and familiarity with submarines has led some to believe Devonport might be the best option for an alternative location for Trident.

However, the Royal United Services Institute's Malcolm Chalmers says even though - time and expense allowing - Devonport might work as an alternative to Faslane, it couldn't recreate Coulport.

Coulport possesses a huge floating dock where warheads are placed inside the missiles, 3km from the small village of Garelochhead on one side and the small village of Ardentinny on the other, Westminster's Scottish Affairs Committee heard in 2012. Any new warhead storage facility would need similar distances from population centres for loading and offloading warheads from missiles.
Click to expand...
 
Moadib said:
By their standards we are the ones who have invaded their country, and are carrying out barbaric acts. We react badly to their barbaric acts - how do we expect them to react to ours? I personally agree it's barbaric - but if I don't want bitten by an angry dog, I don't go into it's kennel and start poking it with a stick.

All this is easy to say - it's the old "all wars are about GOD - Gold, Oil, & Drugs). Power wants to control resources, and it's arguably naive to think that will ever change. But while we agree what they are doing is barbaric, let's also recognise we are playing a large part in that. If the answer is "don't meddle in their country", we have a much better chance to achieve that as independent, rather than having Westminster change policy.
Click to expand...
I hear what you're saying, but do you really think these guys would care whether a victim was from Scotland or England etc, regardless of the outcome of the referendum?
 
StewartR said:
It honestly would. Why don't you read the report written by the Scottish Affairs committee at Westminster, and then explain to us why they are so terribly wrong about it?

Here's the report:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmscotaf/676/67602.htm
Click to expand...

Stewart, I know what's written, however I was talking logistically. Politically is different. I also know something about where certain facilities are at the moment. Do you think we magically move nuclear waste, weapons, fuel around the country or might it just be stored somewhere. ;)
Depleted uranium shells,

Mind you, want the really cheap choice, we just move trident to the us. After all we have 1 or 2 at sea usually.

Portsmouth is very attractive not only for its availability, security, but also for its location. Very close to aldemarston so another colport wouldn't be needed. You could assemble at source, good transport links either by road or air with the chinooks at odiham.
 
Last edited:
StewartR said:
Irrelevant. Being able to spend money, no matter how sensibly, says nothing about one's ability to earn or raise money.
Click to expand...
Bobsyeruncle said:
True, but we'll be able to do both.
Click to expand...
Come on Bob, you're just parroting slogans now.

Yes, of course an independent Scotland could in theory do these things. However, the generally left-wing Scottish politicians show little sign of understanding this. Last we heard, they were boasting about looking forward to the opportunity to lay into BP and the banks.

If I were an undecided voter, that would really concern me. And you just saying "yes we can" just makes it worse. It comes across as either you're not listening, or you're not paying attention, or you don't have any answers, or you just don't care.
 
StewartR said:
Come on Bob, you're just parroting slogans now.

Yes, of course an independent Scotland could in theory do these things. However, the generally left-wing Scottish politicians show little sign of understanding this. Last we heard, they were boasting about looking forward to the opportunity to lay into BP and the banks.

If I were an undecided voter, that would really concern me. And you just saying "yes we can" just makes it worse. It comes across as either you're not listening, or you're not paying attention, or you don't have any answers, or you just don't care.
Click to expand...

"They" happened to be 1 man, Jim Sillars, but I don't hear anyone reporting Alex Salmonds retort to the remarks from Jim Sillars.
I'm not just saying "yes we can" I do actually believe that we can. Just because I'm not paying attention to the no doomsayers, doesn't mean that I'm not listening or paying attention.
 
Byker28i said:
Stewart, I know what's written, however I was talking logistically. Politically is different. I also know something about where certain facilities are at the moment. Do you think we magically move nuclear waste, weapons, fuel around the country or might it just be stored somewhere.
Click to expand...
It's not about storage or transport. That's relatively easy. The bit that gives everyone the heebie-jeebies is mating the nuclear warheads onto the rockets, fuelling the rockets, and loading them onto the subs. The experts all say that you really really don't want to do that anywhere near a major population centre, and that means Portsmouth/Gosport is out. Falmouth is possible if you move the town. Milford Haven is possible if you move all the oil/gas facilities. Anywhere else is really difficult.

Maybe the "experts" are over-egging the danger of this aspect of it. However I think a sensible person would want to be very, very sure of their facts before calling the bluff.
 
Byker28i said:
But you haven't explained how you'll make up the deficit, just "it'll all be alright, you see..."
Click to expand...
Well, considering I'm not going to be running the country, I'll have to wait and see. I have mentioned in previous posts though, some suggestions as to how we can work towards reducing the deficit. The experts, I'm sure, will have other/better ideas.
 
StewartR said:
What did he say?
Click to expand...


FIRST Minister Alex Salmond has said it would be a "day of celebration" if Scotland votes Yes and not a "day of reckoning" for the big companies drawn into the debate as claimed by a former SNP deputy leader.

Jim Sillars, widower of nationalist Margo MacDonald, drew criticism after he said there would be "a day of reckoning with BP and the banks" if Scotland's people vote Yes.

But today Alex Salmond said: "The day after a Yes vote there will cease to be a No campaign and Yes campaign - only Team Scotland.

"We will approach the success of Yes with magnanimity to all.

"Jim Sillars is a great campaigner who has put aside his personal grief over the loss of his wife Margo MacDonald to put his heart and soul into galvanising the Yes vote.

"He is fighting a fine campaign all over Scotland - but the day after a Yes vote will be a day of celebration for the people, not reckoning for big companies drawn into the No campaign by Downing Street."

He played down Mr Sillars comments adding: "Jim was simply trying to express the anger felt by so many people about the revelations that some supermarket statements were orchestrated by the Prime Minister himself.
 
StewartR said:
It's not about storage or transport. That's relatively easy. The bit that gives everyone the heebie-jeebies is mating the nuclear warheads onto the rockets, fuelling the rockets, and loading them onto the subs. The experts all say that you really really don't want to do that anywhere near a major population centre, and that means Portsmouth/Gosport is out. Falmouth is possible if you move the town. Milford Haven is possible if you move all the oil/gas facilities. Anywhere else is really difficult.

Maybe the "experts" are over-egging the danger of this aspect of it. However I think a sensible person would want to be very, very sure of their facts before calling the bluff.
Click to expand...

US naval base for trident is Kings Bay, there's over 15000 personnel on the base alone, 35 miles from jacksonville population about 900,000
How far away do you think it needs to be? However this is a possible base for our 4 submarines in the short term.

The rockets use solid fuel, significantly safer than liquid, easy to transport and refuel. The only issue currently is the cost as since the end of space shuttle the price has gone up (not much demand). The main reason for it's current isolated site was political, no nukes in my back yard etc
 
I agree with Byker, the basing isn't that difficult, slightly more expensive, maybe. But remember the missiles themselves are pooled with the US anyway, so they have to go back to the states for servicing. Being solid fuel (and that is replaced in the US), I am not sure where the Select committee got the ideas they did from, but all of these committees do come out with some utter bow locks!
 
Byker28i said:
US naval base for trident is Kings Bay, there's over 15000 personnel on the base alone, 35 miles from jacksonville population about 900,000
How far away do you think it needs to be? However this is a possible base for our 4 submarines in the short term.

The rockets use solid fuel, significantly safer than liquid, easy to transport and refuel. The only issue currently is the cost as since the end of space shuttle the price has gone up (not much demand). The main reason for it's current isolated site was political, no nukes in my back yard etc
Click to expand...

The BBC article covers that reasoning though with one of the preferred options of Plymouth:

The dockyard is also in a densely populated area, which poses a safety risk. There are about 166,000 people living within 5km of the Devonport base, compared with about 5,200 within that distance of Faslane and fewer close to Coulport. The city of Plymouth has about 250,000 residents and is within 3.5km of the dockyard. Glasgow has a population of about 600,000, but it is 25km away from Faslane.
Click to expand...

The report said:

You could not put the Coulport facility in Devonport because there simply is not the room given the safety margins, which would be higher now than they were in the 1960s.
Click to expand...
 
Much good could come out of a yes vote.
1. Scotland becomes a foreign country, can't join EU because Spain would veto it. Therefore Scots no longer have right to work in UK and that means more jobs for UK residents.
2. Scotland s currency will be very weak, therefore exports like whisky and Angus beef will be cheaper for us south of the border.
3. Apparently 60% of Scottish population are on some kind of benefits, we in the UK won't have to worry about that.
4. With Putin trying to take over the world it will be useful to have a buffer to the north of the border, although as they will only have about 3500 soldiers it won't take too long to get through them.
5. English victories against the Scots in rugby and football are always enjoyable and will be even more so when they are 'foreigners'.
6. This one is a double benefit, the removal of the nuclear base to south of the border will cost billions. This will result for lots more jobs for UK and because of the cost could lead to cancellation of the white elephant that is hs2.
7. BBC could save money by not having to broadcast to a nation with such small population, we may get cheaper tv licences.
8. There is a fat smug idiot with a Scots accent who keeps appearing on my TV, hopefully a yes vote will mean he will go away and stfu!
9. Every year we have a week's holiday in Scotland, when they are independent I can tell my wife I'm taking her on a foreign holiday, complete with getting f2f.
10.It is an awful human trait,schaddenfreuder (sp), but who will be able to refrain from a wry smile when looking over the wall and seeing the absolute up f@@k that is going to result.

Alternatively if they vote no we will have to get on with being the UK, one of the greatest nations on Earth;)
 
BBR said:
Much good could come out of a yes vote.
1. Scotland becomes a foreign country, can't join EU because Spain would veto it. Therefore Scots no longer have right to work in UK and that means more jobs for UK residents.
2. Scotland s currency will be very weak, therefore exports like whisky and Angus beef will be cheaper for us south of the border.
3. Apparently 60% of Scottish population are on some kind of benefits, we in the UK won't have to worry about that.
4. With Putin trying to take over the world it will be useful to have a buffer to the north of the border, although as they will only have about 3500 soldiers it won't take too long to get through them.
5. English victories against the Scots in rugby and football are always enjoyable and will be even more so when they are 'foreigners'.
6. This one is a double benefit, the removal of the nuclear base to south of the border will cost billions. This will result for lots more jobs for UK and because of the cost could lead to cancellation of the white elephant that is hs2.
7. BBC could save money by not having to broadcast to a nation with such small population, we may get cheaper tv licences.
8. There is a fat smug idiot with a Scots accent who keeps appearing on my TV, hopefully a yes vote will mean he will go away and stfu!
9. Every year we have a week's holiday in Scotland, when they are independent I can tell my wife I'm taking her on a foreign holiday, complete with getting f2f.
10.It is an awful human trait,schaddenfreuder (sp), but who will be able to refrain from a wry smile when looking over the wall and seeing the absolute up f@@k that is going to result.

Alternatively if they vote no we will have to get on with being the UK, one of the greatest nations on Earth;)
Click to expand...

Just keep bringing us down. It works wonders.
 
BBR said:
Much good could come out of a yes vote.
1. Scotland becomes a foreign country, can't join EU because Spain would veto it. Therefore Scots no longer have right to work in UK and that means more jobs for UK residents.
2. Scotland s currency will be very weak, therefore exports like whisky and Angus beef will be cheaper for us south of the border.
3. Apparently 60% of Scottish population are on some kind of benefits, we in the UK won't have to worry about that.
4. With Putin trying to take over the world it will be useful to have a buffer to the north of the border, although as they will only have about 3500 soldiers it won't take too long to get through them.
5. English victories against the Scots in rugby and football are always enjoyable and will be even more so when they are 'foreigners'.
6. This one is a double benefit, the removal of the nuclear base to south of the border will cost billions. This will result for lots more jobs for UK and because of the cost could lead to cancellation of the white elephant that is hs2.
7. BBC could save money by not having to broadcast to a nation with such small population, we may get cheaper tv licences.
8. There is a fat smug idiot with a Scots accent who keeps appearing on my TV, hopefully a yes vote will mean he will go away and stfu!
9. Every year we have a week's holiday in Scotland, when they are independent I can tell my wife I'm taking her on a foreign holiday, complete with getting f2f.
10.It is an awful human trait,schaddenfreuder (sp), but who will be able to refrain from a wry smile when looking over the wall and seeing the absolute up f@@k that is going to result.

Alternatively if they vote no we will have to get on with being the UK, one of the greatest nations on Earth;)
Click to expand...

And you wonder why Scots want independence?
 
Moadib said:
By their standards we are the ones who have invaded their country, and are carrying out barbaric acts. We react badly to their barbaric acts - how do we expect them to react to ours? I personally agree it's barbaric - but if I don't want bitten by an angry dog, I don't go into it's kennel and start poking it with a stick.

All this is easy to say - it's the old "all wars are about GOD - Gold, Oil, & Drugs). Power wants to control resources, and it's arguably naive to think that will ever change. But while we agree what they are doing is barbaric, let's also recognise we are playing a large part in that. If the answer is "don't meddle in their country", we have a much better chance to achieve that as independent, rather than having Westminster change policy.
Click to expand...

I think you may want to give some thought to this sometimes you have to stand up and be counted .

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me

“First they came …” is a famous statement and provocative poem attributed to pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the cowardice of German intellectuals following the Nazis' rise to power and the subsequent purging of their chosen targets, group after group. There is some disagreement over the exact wording of the quotation and when it was created; the content of the quotation may have been presented differently by Niemöller on different occasions
 
canon_togger said:
I watched this live today for nearly three hours.
No one should underestimate the pride and passion of the Scots people. Getting a yes majority is a very real achievement.
We shall soon find out.
Click to expand...

Marie I don't think the vast majority of us doubt the pride and passion of the Scots people. I have many for Scots for friends but the People who want the yes vote don't want to think the rest of the UK lack that same passion because they will be kidding themselves.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Just keep bringing us down. It works wonders.
Click to expand...

canon_togger said:
And you wonder why Scots want independence?
Click to expand...

Oh cheer up he didn't even mention the ugly stick :P Seriously though, I'm sure you've got similar lists for the rest of the UK. Ok, lets be frank amongst friends, about the English....Post it up, I fancy a laugh :)
 
dejongj said:
Oh cheer up he didn't even mention the ugly stick :p Seriously though, I'm sure you've got similar lists for the rest of the UK. Ok, lets be frank amongst friends, about the English....Post it up, I fancy a laugh :)
Click to expand...
This is the only time I'm going to say it.....
No Thanks:p
 
canon_togger said:


I watched this live today for nearly three hours.
No one should underestimate the pride and passion of the Scots people. Getting a yes majority is a very real achievement.
We shall soon find out.
Click to expand...

Not all the scots want a yes vote. How does a yes vote show more pride and passion for ones country, which is the United Kingdom of Great Britain which Scotland is a part of?

It's the sort of you're a traitor if you don't vote yes, it makes you less Scottish to vote no. I have need for you, it doesn't. Scotland's been a part of the United Kingdom for longer than anyone's been alive. It's your patriotism to the United Kingdom that counts, in my view, not just to Scotland.

Together we stand, united we fall. We don't have to walk alone.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
I hear what you're saying, but do you really think these guys would care whether a victim was from Scotland or England etc, regardless of the outcome of the referendum?
Click to expand...
Oh no, not in the slightest. However not becoming entangled in such foreign manipulations is the way we can best protect Scots from such atrocities. It looks impossible via Westminster to achieve such an outcome (and I genuinely don't claim to know strategically which is the best way)
 
ST4 said:
Not all the scots want a yes vote. How does a yes vote show more pride and passion for ones country, which is the United Kingdom of Great Britain which Scotland is a part of?

It's the sort of you're a traitor if you don't vote yes, it makes you less Scottish to vote no. I have need for you, it doesn't. Scotland's been a part of the United Kingdom for longer than anyone's been alive. It's your patriotism to the United Kingdom that counts, in my view, not just to Scotland.

Together we stand, united we fall. We don't have to walk alone.
Click to expand...

:agree: Just remember what we all went through together in 1939-45 and I am not forgetting the rest of the commonwealth who laid there lives down as well but it's things like that what brings out the best in us
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ST4
lost said:
I think you may want to give some thought to this sometimes you have to stand up and be counted .
Click to expand...
I know the quote well (and I assure you I have given thought to it, thanks), but how is it relevant? That is not our country. It is up to us to control our actions, our country, our politicians - that is what the quote is saying.

When we start entering other people's houses and telling them what to do - they will fight us. That is absolutely to be expected. Of course we think we re right - but that confers nothing. They believe they are right - do we consider they are then justified to invade Scotland and educate us? Of course not - so why do,we claim such a right for ourselves? And why do we expect no retaliation?

In my opinion we should remain unentangled, but if we want the economic spoils, we can't expect it to be consequence free?
 
Last edited:
ST4 said:
Not all the scots want a yes vote. How does a yes vote show more pride and passion for ones country, which is the United Kingdom of Great Britain which Scotland is a part of?
Click to expand...
ST4 said:
It's the sort of you're a traitor if you don't vote yes, it makes you less Scottish to vote no. I have need for you, it doesn't. Scotland's been a part of the United Kingdom for longer than anyone's been alive. It's your patriotism to the United Kingdom that counts, in my view, not just to Scotland.

Together we stand, united we fall. We don't have to walk alone.
Click to expand...

I didn't say that all Scots want a yes vote. Nor did I say that it shows 'more' pride/passion.
All I said was do not underestimate the Scots on thursday. Much of the media is underestimating the yes numbers and giving the impression that no is almost a given. I'm saying that based on what I have seen this week, a win for yes is a possibility. There is a lot of passion amongst the yes voters. I haven't seen this from the no voters. Maybe they are just being silent. Time will tell.
 
canon_togger said:
And you wonder why Scots want independence?
Click to expand...
Bobsyeruncle said:
Just keep bringing us down. It works wonders.
Click to expand...

This kind of thing is a natural reaction to the independence movement, in much the same way that Irish jokes were all the thing until the peace process began to work. It's just unthinking tribalism reacting to more tribalism, and mocking is a way of reducing the perceived threat. You do realise that the way an independent Scotland is being presented looks like tribalism and threatening, don't you? As an Austrian that grew up in the UK, I have a certain amount of detachment that gives a slightly different perspective.
 
If it is a no vote more powers are on their way to Scotland which will be a good thing too. I can see Scotland becoming independent eventually so logic would dictate it may as well be sooner with the oil reserves rather than later when it is gone.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top