Amateur Photography Costs

big soft moose said:
May be you should go back and read post 1

where you said



In order to "offer on location shoots" you need to know what you are doing - and be able to light, pose and retouch a sight better than the shots you've shared here show
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Do you have an example of your work where you can show me what you mean?
 
Mate, I don't even take photos of people, I don't have a business, I'm just an amateur wildlife photographer that takes photos for pleasure, but after reading this thread it seems to me that you don't want advice from people who actually make a living from doing this. Why are you arguing with them? They're offering you invaluable advice FOR FREE in order to help you achieve your goal, and you're aguing with them! Just listen, take their advice and improve.
 
End of the day by using phrases like

"offering on location shots" and "my clients" you have positioned yourself as though you are and/or want to be a business ... if all you meant was that sometimes you go to your mates houses and take pictures of them in return for a a few notes then you should have said so.

To be honest we see this all the time - whats happened is that you've come in with an inflated idea of your own abilities and where you are in the field, then posted some pictures which just don't evidence the degree of skill you think you have , then when this is pointed out you've got all defensive and started making a bit of a penis of yourself.

End of the day you can go two ways from here - either you can simmer down, think about whats been said, and actually seek to improve on the areas where you are lacking (in which case people will go out of their way to help you, because that's what we do here) , or you can salve your wounded pride by continuing down your current role of arguing with and insulting people who know a s*** load more about this than you do and carry on taking mediocre shots

I'm not wasting any more of my time on you at this stage, but feel free to let me know if you chose option one
 
Suarez85 said:
Do you have an example of your work where you can show me what you mean?
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Not to hand - I shoot weddings mostly so i don't do much complicated lighting or retouching - but you can see what I mean by looking at the examples Sir SR posted earlier...
 
big soft moose said:
End of the day by using phrases like

"offering on location shots" and "my clients" you have positioned yourself as though you are and/or want to be a business ... if all you meant was that sometimes you go to your mates houses and take pictures of them in return for a a few notes then you should have said so.

To be honest we see this all the time - whats happened is that you've come in with an inflated idea of your own abilities and where you are in the field, then posted some pictures which just don't evidence the degree of skill you think you have , then when this is pointed out you've got all defensive and started making a bit of a penis of yourself.

End of the day you can go two ways from here - either you can simmer down, think about whats been said, and actually seek to improve on the areas where you are lacking (in which case people will go out of their way to help you, because that's what we do here) , or you can salve your wounded pride by continuing down your current role of arguing with and insulting people who know a s*** load more about this than you do and carry on taking mediocre shots

I'm not wasting any more of my time on you at this stage, but feel free to let me know if you chose option one
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Best post of the thread goes to.......................
 
big soft moose said:
End of the day by using phrases like

"offering on location shots" and "my clients" you have positioned yourself as though you are and/or want to be a business ... if all you meant was that sometimes you go to your mates houses and take pictures of them in return for a a few notes then you should have said so.

To be honest we see this all the time - whats happened is that you've come in with an inflated idea of your own abilities and where you are in the field, then posted some pictures which just don't evidence the degree of skill you think you have , then when this is pointed out you've got all defensive and started making a bit of a penis of yourself.

End of the day you can go two ways from here - either you can simmer down, think about whats been said, and actually seek to improve on the areas where you are lacking (in which case people will go out of their way to help you, because that's what we do here) , or you can salve your wounded pride by continuing down your current role of arguing with and insulting people who know a s*** load more about this than you do and carry on taking mediocre shots

I'm not wasting any more of my time on you at this stage, but feel free to let me know if you chose option one
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Im glad, didnt really value your opinion anyway. Other's I do, and I take their opinions on board. You, your just a bit obnoxious
 
You think he's obnoxious ! Refer back to page 1 where 1 of the 1st people to give you good advise/ crit and what did you do? Laughed in their face with no explanation why. I wish you luck and bid you fairwell, your gonna need it LOL
 
Come on lads.

As one of my teachers used to do/say when he came into a noisy classroom ...

He used to create a fist and thump his desk very hard - we boys all knew that noise!

Then he looked up with a smile, shaking his hand, and said softly:

"Peace!"

"Love!"

Then louder:

"JOY!"

Let's give it a rest for the evening.
 
stumac said:
You think he's obnoxious ! Refer back to page 1 where 1 of the 1st people to give you good advise/ crit and what did you do? Laughed in their face with no explanation why. I wish you luck and bid you fairwell, your gonna need it LOL
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Oh, thats polite against what he has said
 
Hi there I've decided to go freelance, wanted to do it a while back after I finished my photography course but bad health got in my way, my prices are about £30 for a half hour shoot with 12 - 15 high res images on a disc, I've been told I'm aiming too low, I've done a charity gig and a small cheque presentation but these I didn't charge for, im still trying to find my niche at moment, but suppose variety of shoots help??

Also I have a wedding booking for October even though I've never done a wedding before they are happy for me to do this

Thoughts and advice would be helpful

Thankyou in advance :)
 
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pjm1 said:
Probably best to start your own thread - that way you'll get answers aimed at you rather than having those cross and also it means Suarez isn't having to read through "your" answers to get to his.
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I'd assumed it was a joke :confused:

There's no question, just a request for 'comments'
 
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@Suarez85 credit where credit is due... you certainly are thick skinned but you have had some fantastic advise above and then you have seemed to take it on board.

Yes your shots are not fantastic but you are speaking to photographers who are lets say have a keener eye. If these images shared have made you money and the client is happy all is good but use every shoot as learning exercise and improve lighting, camera control etc basically if you can make money whilst learning all the better.

Maybe as earlier if you have realise a major improvement at some stage maybe offer the first set of people back for a shoot and create some repeat business.

Post some shots from each shoot in the people and portraits and learn from the extremely helpful advice that is available here.
 
Suarez85 said:
Hi,

Iv done a little research online but wanting to get more of an idea from here.

How much do people charge for amateur photography shoots.

Im currently offering on location shoots that last about 30mins with 12-15 hi-res images for £20 as an introduction, any idea what I should be charging for this? I dont want to price myself too low that people wont consider me, nor too high, for the same reason.

Wondering what amateurs would charge for the following;

Portraits
On location shoots
Events (not weddings, im not ready to do that yet)

Thanks in advance
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C_B photography said:
Hi there I've decided to go freelance, wanted to do it a while back after I finished my photography course but bad health got in my way, my prices are about £30 for a half hour shoot with 12 - 15 high res images on a disc, I've been told I'm aiming too low, I've done a charity gig and a small cheque presentation but these I didn't charge for, im still trying to find my niche at moment, but suppose variety of shoots help??

Also I have a wedding booking for October even though I've never done a wedding before they are happy for me to do this

Thoughts and advice would be helpful

Thankyou in advance :)
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That is a co incidence, both doing 30 min and 12 - 15 hi res images ...
 
Wow. This turned a bit strange since I last posted.

My advice to anyone wanting to start a new business venture is to just do it. The market will decide if you actually have a viable business or not.

And try not to take too much advice from seasoned professionals who tell you that you're not good enough yet. They probably wern't when they started either.


Steve.
 
big soft moose said:
I strongly doubt that there are sufficient freinds of freinds who want pictures of their kids to even cover that cost - so at this stage he isnt really building a business merely covering some of the costs of his hobby
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Possibly that or maybe starting up yet not possible to run as a solo job currently? I know of a few photographers who mix part time jobs of which photography is one.
 
@Suarez85 How many paid jobs have you done so far and how many of them are people you have no connection to at all, total strangers? I'm just wondering, not trying to have a dig.
 
Suarez85 said:
Im glad, didnt really value your opinion anyway. Other's I do, and I take their opinions on board. You, your just a bit obnoxious
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You'll get used to moose. He can be rude, obnoxious, helpful and even sometimes offers good advice ;) but it's usually lost in his posting style.
He's fairly harmless if you chose to ignore him when in flow. :D
 
Suarez85 said:
Yeah I have a 5in1 reflector, it was just the 2 of us and didnt have anywhere/anyhow to bounce the flash off, but agreed it is hot in places..
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This is where an assistant works, voice operated remote control light stand and someone to help carry the kit, because as you progress the kit seems to get more and more.

Of camera flash works well and it needs to be softened, unless shooting a harsh lighting style.
There's a variety of ways of doing this, bounce off the reflector, softbox, homemade light modifiers. I have in the past made all sorts of devices to modify lighting using cardboard tubes, strips of baking paper etc. It's quite good fun to experiment if you haven't the money to buy.

I have a westcott apollo softbox umbrella, which is quick to setup, easy to carry.
 
htid said:
@Suarez85 How many paid jobs have you done so far and how many of them are people you have no connection to at all, total strangers? I'm just wondering, not trying to have a dig.
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OP - Have you mentioned your age group? Teenager, early twenties, later in life etc?
 
Byker28i said:
You'll get used to moose. He can be rude, obnoxious, helpful and even sometimes offers good advice ;) but it's usually lost in his posting style.
He's fairly harmless if you chose to ignore him when in flow. :D
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I love you too Byker
 
Byker28i said:
Possibly that or maybe starting up yet not possible to run as a solo job currently? I know of a few photographers who mix part time jobs of which photography is one.
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well yes, but the point Phil myself and others were making earlier before it all went daft was that it will never be possible to run it as a solo job or even a decent second job if the price the skills command is £30 per shoot , pics included

end of the day there are two schools of thought on starting up

one says - I'll start cheap and build my skills as I go, my clients won't mind if my pics aren't great because they are at a very low price point , and as my skills improve i'll put my prices up

the other says , I'll learn my trade and know what i'm doing before I start trading, build a portfolio with models or TFP(and similar), and only start charging money when i'm confident i can offer a good service , my prices will be targeted at the market i want to serve

Both are possible but the risks with the former are that:

a) its not true that clients will accept poor work because you are cheap (if you are talking about proper clients not friends) - yes people accept some compromise just as someone might choose to buy a Proton rather than a BMW , but the Proton buyer still expects it to start and run (in other words to be fit for purpose)

b) once you've started delivering mediocre work at a low price point its very difficult to alter your market, with the parallel above think how difficult it would be for Proton to reestablish themselves as a luxury marque in competition with BMW, Mercedes etc - also your ability might increase with practice but your customer referal business will all be people expecting the same low price their mates had.(not to mention the potential for unhappy customers spreading a negative reputation)

Hence the advice that our friend would be better off with the latter model ... clearly he doesn't have to take it , and it seems he probably won't (the trap with the first one is that you can jump straight in and get lots of business quickly initially which feels great and strokes the ego - "yah boo sucks to all those haters who said I couldn't do it", not realising that on an honest appraisal of time vs cost that you are working for less than NMW. )
 
I haven't read all of this thread, but look at it from the "client's" point of view. They may not appreciate the difference between Ok photography and Good. But look at what they get for their £20.

15 high-res images to do with what they wish, at anytime, for all time. No wonder they're happy! Have you thought about copyright? Do us all a favour and start charging something realistic.
 
Tintin124 said:
@Suarez85 credit where credit is due... you certainly are thick skinned but you have had some fantastic advise above and then you have seemed to take it on board.

Yes your shots are not fantastic but you are speaking to photographers who are lets say have a keener eye. If these images shared have made you money and the client is happy all is good but use every shoot as learning exercise and improve lighting, camera control etc basically if you can make money whilst learning all the better.

Maybe as earlier if you have realise a major improvement at some stage maybe offer the first set of people back for a shoot and create some repeat business.

Post some shots from each shoot in the people and portraits and learn from the extremely helpful advice that is available here.
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Certainly will be offering the people iv done shoots for a free session, maybe in 3 months time once iv built up more experience and training - I think that will go a long way :)
 
htid said:
@Suarez85 How many paid jobs have you done so far and how many of them are people you have no connection to at all, total strangers? I'm just wondering, not trying to have a dig.
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Basically I did one shoot for a friend, and then posted to FB, out of that I had 3 queries from people connected to her, of which I have done 2 and one more booked for later in the week. So essentially, 2.
 
The more photoshoots you do, the more experience you gather.
Hopefully that, and taking some of the free advice that you have been given will help to improve the quality.

Agreed, there is some ego boosting going on from your friends and their peers as they have asked you to take pictures for them.
These will be better than most that are taken from a smartphone, and they should be.
£30 for some of these is pin money and may well help to subsidise your DSLR, but soon the reality of time, equipment and effort will prove that £30 is insufficient.

Keep on trying and hopefully you (and others) will see an improvement. Me? I've had many likes for pics that I have posted on FB, and others telling me I should do it for a living. But with a family and commitments, I have taken stock of my ability and just walked away with a smile. You want to do more, so good luck and I hope you make a success of it. Just don't let your ego overtake your ability.
 
Meeten said:
The more photoshoots you do, the more experience you gather.
Hopefully that, and taking some of the free advice that you have been given will help to improve the quality.

Agreed, there is some ego boosting going on from your friends and their peers as they have asked you to take pictures for them.
These will be better than most that are taken from a smartphone, and they should be.
£30 for some of these is pin money and may well help to subsidise your DSLR, but soon the reality of time, equipment and effort will prove that £30 is insufficient.

Keep on trying and hopefully you (and others) will see an improvement. Me? I've had many likes for pics that I have posted on FB, and others telling me I should do it for a living. But with a family and commitments, I have taken stock of my ability and just walked away with a smile. You want to do more, so good luck and I hope you make a success of it. Just don't let your ego overtake your ability.
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This is why I thought of posting on here. Of course my friends are probably going to be too polite to give me criticism - but at the same time I dont think im doing everything completely wrong (as some of the replies have insinuated)

Im hoping that the time frame of charging £30 against the inevitable realization that it is indeed not financially viable will mirror what I have learnt in ability, therefore being able to ask for more and then start to think about it as a viable business option, if I wish to do so.

I hope it doesnt come across that it appears my ego has overtaken my ability, im forever attempting to better myself, research, practice and discuss with my peers. I know where I want to be and what to achieve, which i realise im far away from - but im definitely enjoying the learning process of getting there :)
 
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@Suarez85 but as has been pointed out, if you charge £30 for a while then go higher, people will say "but my friend got it for £30, why has it gone up?" Good luck justifying that to a member of public!
 
htid said:
@Suarez85 but as has been pointed out, if you charge £30 for a while then go higher, people will say "but my friend got it for £30, why has it gone up?" Good luck justifying that to a member of public!
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This is a very common misconception, there's a chance it'll put some people off, but referrals aren't everything. And the story is more complicated than just price.
 
Phil V said:
This is a very common misconception, there's a chance it'll put some people off, but referrals aren't everything. And the story is more complicated than just price.
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Eh? Wasn't it you that said this in the first place? I'm getting confused as to who said what now! I just heard somebody say it on here or maybe the misstigger thread and repeated it because it makes sense. If in reality that's not the case then never mind :)
 
htid said:
Eh? Wasn't it you that said this in the first place? I'm getting confused as to who said what now! I just heard somebody say it on here or maybe the misstigger thread and repeated it because it makes sense. If in reality that's not the case then never mind :)
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You'll often see it posted, not often by 'ordinary' photographers, many of whom have worked at various price points.

In January I shot a wedding for free 'as a favour', I've had 3 referrals from that wedding, none of them will book, because I'm well beyond the budget of the brides circle of friends.

I'm not bothered by that one iota.
 
Suarez85 said:
This is why I thought of posting on here. Of course my friends are probably going to be too polite to give me criticism - but at the same time I dont think im doing everything completely wrong (as some of the replies have insinuated)

Im hoping that the time frame of charging £30 against the inevitable realization that it is indeed not financially viable will mirror what I have learnt in ability, therefore being able to ask for more and then start to think about it as a viable business option, if I wish to do so.

I hope it doesnt come across that it appears my ego has overtaken my ability, im forever attempting to better myself, research, practice and discuss with my peers. I know where I want to be and what to achieve, which i realise im far away from - but im definitely enjoying the learning process of getting there :)
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Rather than rehash whether £30 shoots are a sustainable business model.. I'm going to be blunt but the other's comments don't seem to be sinking in. My apologies in advance, I'm genuinely trying to be helpful.

Your biggest problem is that you can't yet see the difference between what you're able to produce and what the pros can produce. You really, really need to develop your self-critique skills. I'd suggest spending some weeks going back over the critique threads on this forum and then watch lots of critique videos - e.g. fstoppers, Zack Arias, Dom Bower, Karl Taylor, Scott Kelby.

Your second problem is consistency. You need to be able to churn it out on a bad day in s***ty conditions with an uncooperative subject.

In Alexander Technique-speak you're at the unconscious incompetence stage. You're not very good and not aware of it. There's a long way to go to achieve competence, and further still to get to unconscious competence.

but at the same time I dont think im doing everything completely wrong
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One last attempt..

On the positives:
  • You're getting the exposure about right. Mainly. I don't know how much post-processing it has taken to get it there
  • You seem to have got the hang of the controls on your camera
  • You seem to be managing to communicate with your subjects and capturing a reasonable expression - but they are your friends
  • Your framing is ok
The negatives:
  • Your use of light is poor
  • Your focusing is off
  • Your composition & use of location isn't great
  • Your WB is all over the shop
  • Your post processing is poor
  • Your posing & directing is poor
  • Your story-telling is poor
  • You don't really capture any kind of emotion.
Now do you see why asking a bunch of pros - myself not included - whether you're ready to join them and then ignoring their feedback might irritate?
 
juggler said:
Rather than rehash whether £30 shoots are a sustainable business model.. I'm going to be blunt but the other's comments don't seem to be sinking in. My apologies in advance, I'm genuinely trying to be helpful.

Your biggest problem is that you can't yet see the difference between what you're able to produce and what the pros can produce. You really, really need to develop your self-critique skills. I'd suggest spending some weeks going back over the critique threads on this forum and then watch lots of critique videos - e.g. fstoppers, Zack Arias, Dom Bower, Karl Taylor, Scott Kelby.

Your second problem is consistency. You need to be able to churn it out on a bad day in s***ty conditions with an uncooperative subject.

In Alexander Technique-speak you're at the unconscious incompetence stage. You're not very good and not aware of it. There's a long way to go to achieve competence, and further still to get to unconscious competence.



One last attempt..

On the positives:
  • You're getting the exposure about right. Mainly. I don't know how much post-processing it has taken to get it there
  • You seem to have got the hang of the controls on your camera
  • You seem to be managing to communicate with your subjects and capturing a reasonable expression - but they are your friends
  • Your framing is ok
The negatives:
  • Your use of light is poor
  • Your focusing is off
  • Your composition & use of location isn't great
  • Your WB is all over the shop
  • Your post processing is poor
  • Your posing & directing is poor
  • Your story-telling is poor
  • You don't really capture any kind of emotion.
Now do you see why asking a bunch of pros - myself not included - whether you're ready to join them and then ignoring their feedback might irritate?
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Absolutely agree - I apologise if it appears I am not receiving the critique in the right manner - in some cases these appeared a bit too blunt, which isnt always the best approach, as people receive criticism im different ways and at the time, it probably got my back up a little - however looking back at the comments and having a chance to digest and reinterpret them, I agree with them most and will take them all onboard to develop myself.

I am attempting to get everything as right as I can in camera, purely because I hate post processing and prefer to shoot.

Your list of negatives is spot on and I am going to be working on all of these in the coming months, I may continue to post on this thread to hopefully showcase my improvements and also show that I am indeed listening to the advice given.

Currently researching and practicing posing and directing at the moment and will be putting my learnings into practice over the coming days. :)
 
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