A sad rant

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excalibur2

excalibur2

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Well after getting banned from my grandson's school for using a camera at the nativity play, I was wary of using a camera at my grandaughter xmas sing song etc well what the heck so what if I get banned again at her school..anyway chose a camera which had a quiet shutter (A1) and didn't take a flashgun....WTF no one told me it was in a church and you can take photographs, but what's worse the church was dimly lit and all I had was 200 ISO film. h'mm using a 135mm lens @ f2.8 and it was 1/2 sec for my grandaughter reading a xmas message... if only I took my T90 with flash gun (y) (or maybe the new anti shake A7-II :eek: )
And I would be astonished if I get any decent results..... I hate failures esp if it's my fault.
 
Had similar fun shooting my granddaughters christening. Took my F5 with an SB-28 & some Portra 160 only to be told by the Vicar that take whatever photos you want, but that flash guns were banned because they are off-putting. Was glad that I had my DSLR with me. Got the photos but the high ISO noise is visible on the larger prints. Probably telling me that I need a better one :(

"Your church, your rules" fair enough but you kind of think they would be a bit more tolerant about people wanting to take photos of christenings for memories in the years to come wouldn't you? Pause the service or whatever for a minute so people can get their pics & then carry on. I don't think it is too much to ask.
 
DNH said:
Had similar fun shooting my granddaughters christening. Took my F5 with an SB-28 & some Portra 160 only to be told by the Vicar that take whatever photos you want, but that flash guns were banned because they are off-putting. Was glad that I had my DSLR with me. Got the photos but the high ISO noise is visible on the larger prints. Probably telling me that I need a better one :(

"Your church, your rules" fair enough but you kind of think they would be a bit more tolerant about people wanting to take photos of christenings for memories in the years to come wouldn't you? Pause the service or whatever for a minute so people can get their pics & then carry on. I don't think it is too much to ask.
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Totally agree with you on this one David, once in a lifetime memories and the local vic cannot be a bit more flexible. It seems us togs get penalised wherever we go.:eek:
 
Daryl said:
Why did you not set ASA/ISO higher then you could push the film dev time?
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Well Asda does my development. ;) and the vicar wasn't in charge but the headmaster and he didn't care if anyone used flash...that's why I'm so annoyed with myself for being too timid about upsetting anyone and not bringing the flashgun.
 
excalibur2 said:
Well Asda does my development. ;) and the vicar wasn't in charge but the headmaster and he didn't care if anyone used flash...that's why I'm so annoyed with myself for being too timid about upsetting anyone and not bringing the flashgun.
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I think a flashgun might be distracting for the participants, even if it is allowed. I'd advise getting/borrowing a digital camera with decent high ISO capability (and a fairly quiet shutter). The smaller the better - they seem to home in on bigger cameras.
 
Lindsay D said:
I think a flashgun might be distracting for the participants, even if it is allowed. I'd advise getting/borrowing a digital camera with decent high ISO capability (and a fairly quiet shutter). The smaller the better - they seem to home in on bigger cameras.
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Many parents had digi gear, notebooks, mobiles or whatever and flashes were continually going off, mind you my powerful separate flash gun would have lit up the kids and church..well for only about 1/1000 sec ;)
 
Lindsay D said:
I think a flashgun might be distracting for the participants, even if it is allowed.
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This! There's a reason why many live performances specify flash photography isn't allowed, not only is it hugely distracting for the audience, it's also horrifically distracting when you're on stage trying to perform. If I were on stage playing a gig and you kept blasting a flash gun from the audience I wouldn't be too pleased about it! It also destroys any lighting effects that might be going on - in short it's just plain disrespectful to everyone else in the room.
 
PMN said:
This! There's a reason why many live performances specify flash photography isn't allowed, not only is it hugely distracting for the audience, it's also horrifically distracting when you're on stage trying to perform. If I were on stage playing a gig and you kept blasting a flash gun from the audience I wouldn't be too pleased about it! It also destroys any lighting effects that might be going on - in short it's just plain disrespectful to everyone else in the room.
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...but if your dad wanted a few shots of just you, taken from the side (not frontal)...then would you mind ;) for me it was my 8 year old grandaughter reading a xmas message to the audience for about 2 mins and that moment is gone for ever cos I didn't have my flashgun.
 
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excalibur2 said:
...but if your dad wanted a few shots of just you, taken from the side (not frontal)...then would you mind ;)
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Whenever it is and wherever they're taken from it's still plain disrespectful to everyone else. It's a constant cause of frustration for me in my job when I'm in dark auditoriums and I see horrible flashes going off, some people don't seem to realise just how disrespectful and annoying it is and sadly these people seem to think grabbing a photo or two is more important than everyone else's enjoyment. Pure selfishness.
 
Well maybe disrespectful but my grandaughter is more important to me than any other parents...and once in a lifetime xmas shot at 8 years old, so s*d other people......you can't get too PC about photography and that's the way it is for 150 years.
 
PMN said:
Whenever it is and wherever they're taken from it's still plain disrespectful to everyone else. It's a constant cause of frustration for me in my job when I'm in dark auditoriums and I see horrible flashes going off, some people don't seem to realise just how disrespectful and annoying it is and sadly these people seem to think grabbing a photo or two is more important than everyone else's enjoyment. Pure selfishness.
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It really annoys me when muppets spend the entirety of a concert looking at the back of their iPhones rather than watching the band - and the fact that they think that a mobile-phone flash will do ANYTHING other than irritate the performer. At least most people who get a pass for photographing bands generally do get the "first three songs then you're out"

I do think there is a bit of a distinction though between a kids carol service and going to see Robert Plant or such like...
 
...and when I come to think of it:- I was at the front at the side of the church by a pillar (not in the audience) and my flash would have lit up my grandaughter only and the rest of the flash would have gone on to the other side of the church and not to the audience of other girls in the xmas carol. So it was a winning situation if I only had my flashgun.
 
I do tend to agree with Brian on this one. At a concert on the other hand it is the height of bad manners and selfishness and it drives me effin' bananas, to such an extent now that I have decided to stop going to gigs unless they are seated ones (to be fair I'm also totally peed off with people standing in clumps and talking whilst the acts are on as well).
 
excalibur2 said:
... that moment is gone for ever cos I didn't have my flashgun.
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Shouldn't that be, "'cos I didn't have an appropriate film or camera for the conditions"? Agree with Mark's point re: distinction but with a previous ban for using a camera and only taking ISO200 film for an indoor shoot, I believe you are protesting too much, especially if your throwaway comment about a Sony A7-II was a reference to a camera you actually own.
 
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TheBigYin said:
I do think there is a bit of a distinction though between a kids carol service and going to see Robert Plant or such like...
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I tend to treat all performances with equal respect whatever they are. Then again, that's what people pay me for.

Strappy said:
Shouldn't that be, "'cos I didn't have an appropriate film or camera for the conditions"?
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Exactly my thoughts...
 
excalibur2 said:
Well maybe disrespectful but my grandaughter is more important to me than any other parents...and once in a lifetime xmas shot at 8 years old, so s*d other people......you can't get too PC about photography and that's the way it is for 150 years.
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If that image is so important to you then make the effort to use appropriate gear and capture it properly. You've just gone from being selfish to selfish and lazy.

I know I'm being harsh here but I can't stand 'I'll do what I want and screw everyone else' attitudes like this.

And what do you mean by the 150 year comment? I don't understand that at all.
 
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PMN said:
If that image is so important to you then make the effort to use appropriate gear and capture it properly. You've just gone from being selfish to selfish and lazy.

I know I'm being harsh here but I can't stand 'I'll do what I want and screw everyone else' attitudes like this.

And what do you mean by the 150 year comment? I don't understand that at all.
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There are times when a shot overrides anything esp if it is a small inconvenience to others. Well I ain't going to buy a digi camera with high ISO that might have a chance of capturing an image in very poor light and I don't do B/W..as for 150 years, what about all those insensitive shots of dead or dying soldiers\civilians\politicians etc in peace and war, pictures of people that somebody knows even if they are just beaten up or facially disfigured and it goes on and on and it is called news or info to the general public.
Also if you are being paid for your gigs and the audience is paying a lot of money they should be allowed to use flash..and anyway you should get used to it as I'm sure top models on the catwalk, film stars etc do.
 
excalibur2 said:
There are times when a shot overrides anything esp if it is a small inconvenience to others.
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In this case, I would say that the needs and desires of the performers should override the needs and desires of those taking photographs in the audience. In many cases, flash can be incredibly distracting to both performers and spectators alike. The flash might be even more distracting in this case given that the performers are adolescent children.

Personally, I think it's usually inconsiderate to use flash at most types of performances—whether holiday plays, sporting events, or concerts. Plan ahead and use the cameras, lenses, and films/sensors that are most appropriate for that event (and also have a backup plan). If you insist on using colour film, then I think you'll need to push Portra 400 two or three stops and use a faster lens.

Just how you thought that ISO 200 film would be ideally suited for an indoor performance, I'm not sure we'll ever know.

excalibur2 said:
Well maybe disrespectful but my grandaughter is more important to me than any other parents...and once in a lifetime xmas shot at 8 years old, so s*d other people......you can't get too PC about photography and that's the way it is for 150 years.
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The use of flash has nothing to do with political correctness. It is more an issue of respect, if anything, I suppose.
 
excalibur2 said:
what about all those insensitive shots of dead or dying soldiers\civilians\politicians etc in peace and war, pictures of people that somebody knows even if they are just beaten up or facially disfigured and it goes on and on and it is called news or info to the general public.
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Are you seriously bringing genuine photojournalism into this? What on Earth does that have to do with using flash in an event?

excalibur2 said:
Also if you are being paid for your gigs and the audience is paying a lot of money they should be allowed to use flash..and anyway you should get used to it as I'm sure top models on the catwalk, film stars etc do.
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I'll add blind ignorance to the list already containing selfish and lazy. The audience should be able to use flash because they paid for a ticket? If I buy a train ticket does that give me the right shout at the top of my voice and annoy everyone else on the train or do something else equally annoying?

As for the "I should get used to it" comment, until you've stood on a stage and performed yourself you're not in any way qualified to make such a judgement. People on stage aren't your little playthings that you can treat with total disregard, they're up there trying to give everyone in the room the best performance they can. Your attitude that the performers and other audience members are less important than your photo is nothing short of appalling.
 
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excalibur2 said:
There are times when a shot overrides anything esp if it is a small inconvenience to others. Well I ain't going to buy a digi camera with high ISO that might have a chance of capturing an image in very poor light and I don't do B/W..as for 150 years, what about all those insensitive shots of dead or dying soldiers\civilians\politicians etc in peace and war, pictures of people that somebody knows even if they are just beaten up or facially disfigured and it goes on and on and it is called news or info to the general public.
Also if you are being paid for your gigs and the audience is paying a lot of money they should be allowed to use flash..and anyway you should get used to it as I'm sure top models on the catwalk, film stars etc do.
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I've shot many top catwalk shows, and we've never been allowed to use flash, for what I hope are obvious reasons. Film stars are subject to the paparazzi and press calls - and flash is an expectation for anyone walking the red carpet.

I can understand you wanting pictures of your grand-daughter, but an affordable camera with good ISO capability is the way to go. Flashes going off during a performance - any performance - are annoying to put it mildly and would possibly have made your grand-daughter self concious whilst on stage.

You compare this with hard news reporting which performs a vital service in informing us about the world's atrocities - seriously?

I think you're running low on arguments Brian ....
 
Andysnap said:
to be fair I'm also totally peed off with people standing in clumps and talking whilst the acts are on as well.
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That's one of the things which annoy me most at live music events (that and and DJs between bands!).

excalibur2 said:
anyway you should get used to it as I'm sure top models on the catwalk, film stars etc do.
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You should do an experiment. Go to a big name concert with your powerful flash and see how long it takes for you to be thrown out.


Steve.
 
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PMN said:
Me too, I've both politely and at times not so politely asked/told people to stand out of the way if they want to talk.
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One of my friends runs a monthly music event - mostly acoustic instruments and usually in a cafe. The events are called 'Shhh! - Quiet Music for Quiet Audiences'.

He started this after being appalled at one of his own (louder) gigs where even on stage with decent monitors, he was distracted by a large group at the bar talking to each other quite loudly and not taking any interest in the show. Despite having paid about £10 each for a ticket. They were told to be quiet in his quite forceful voice!

Sadly this trend seems to be increasingly common.


Steve.
 
H'mm I think ya'all trying to be PC and in real life if your shot of your children was important and never to be repeated you would use any means to get the shot. As mentioned I was banned from my grandson's school using a camera without flash (h'mm because they had a video camera and would lose sales if all parents did it :shifty: :sneaky: ?) and I was too timid to make the same mistake again to my loss, also the headmaster said you can take photographs in the church so I wasn't breaking any rules, and don't forget my point #16, so did try to be in the background and not to annoy anyone even using a quiet shutter camera..the Canon A1.
And I was using a 135mm f2.8 lens so what difference would a 135mm f2 lens make in poor light even pushing film to 3200 ISO which is difficult with colour. As we all know it's horse for courses and in my case a digi camera would have been handy for colour if you can't use flash.
 
I'm the last person to attempt to be PC, Brian, so get that nonsense idea out of your head. This is to do purely with respecting those around you.

Also, just for the record, I've missed stacks of shots of various things because if I'd have barged in and taken them someone else would have lost out or I'd have been in the way somehow. Not everyone thinks their own photo is more important than being a decent and considerate human being.
 
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****Are you seriously bringing genuine photojournalism into this?***

H'mm so the media do not use any shots from joe public who are in the right place at the right time even with a mobile :rolleyes: With a camera you can shoot anything from something gruesome to funny candid camera shots shown on tv and you don't have to be a photojournalist.
 
excalibur2 said:
****Are you seriously bringing genuine photojournalism into this?***

H'mm so the media do not use any shots from joe public who are in the right place at the right time even with a mobile :rolleyes: With a camera you can shoot anything from something gruesome to funny candid camera shots shown on tv and you don't have to be a photojournalist.
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I'm more than aware what you can do with a camera, Brian, I just fail to see what photos of war zones have to do with you annoying the rest of an audience.
 
PMN said:
I'm more than aware what you can do with a camera, Brian, I just fail to see what photos of war zones have to do with you annoying the rest of an audience.
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Well I did add "etc" and joe public do take shots in war zones like Iraq, Syria etc as ATM it's too dangerous for photojournalists. but the principle is the same in that even if it's a shot at a cricket match your shot might be bought by a newspaper.
 
Where is this thread going?
 
excalibur2 said:
Well I did add "etc" and joe public do take shots in war zones like Iraq, Syria etc as ATM it's too dangerous for photojournalists. but the principle is the same in that even if it's a shot at a cricket match your shot might be bought by a newspaper.
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I give up, you're the single most impossible person to have a discussion with I've ever come across anywhere.
 
robhooley167 said:
Where is this thread going?
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rapidly towards :lock:methinks


Look folks - there's a really handy function that you non-staff people get to use. It's called the Ignore function. If you really don't want to be bothered with someones inane twaddle, hit the ignore button. Don't rant or argue with them - if they cross the line RTM them and leave any dealing of justice to the staff, and just walk away and hit the ignore button for relief of future stress...
 
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Which would be a rarity (and a shame) for this section of the site. What happened to this being the relaxed, chilled out, friendly part of TP? That thread on street photography hasn't exactly been amicable either...
 
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TheGreatSoprendo said:
Which would be a rarity (and a shame) for this section of the site. What happened to this being the relaxed, chilled out, friendly part of TP?
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Someone mentioned Digital earlier in the thread... even in passing, it can affect the equilibrium in here :lol:
 
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excalibur2 said:
And I was using a 135mm f2.8 lens so what difference would a 135mm f2 lens make in poor light even pushing film to 3200 ISO which is difficult with colour. As we all know it's horse for courses and in my case a digi camera would have been handy for colour if you can't use flash.
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What difference would it make? Four stops.
 
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