A bit cheesed off actually!........

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flavio

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Tony
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I attended another equestrian event today, took some photos for the owner of a horse who I was with and had asked me for the photos specifically.
(it was done by prior arrangement with someone I know well, I wasn`t there speculating, the client was an existing customer and friend)

Whilst I was there I had a walk around and took some more photos of some of the other competitors, out of the blue a car rapidly approached, a disgruntled woman hung out of the window and demanded to know who I was taking photos for, "are you selling them to competitors" she growled.
I assured her I wasn`t actually and I asked to know why she was interested.
Turns our she was the resident event photographer, obviously worried I was moving in on her patch.
This has happened to me twice recently and the attitudes of these so called professionals leaves a lot to be desired.

My main problem with this is the event organisers are effectively choosing which photographs are available to the riders.
In my opinion if the event photographers images were of sufficient quality to please their potential customers then they, the photographers, would have little to worry about.
I hate restrictive practice whatever form it takes and this is to my mind a prime example.
Any thoughts appreciated

Regards
 
I would have told her to GTF with an attitude like that. next time it happens say that you don't sell them but give people full rez images for nothing if they ask you lol
 
If the event photographer was worried about you doing for less costs her work i can sympathise with her feelings but not hr method of approach. You clearly looked as if you knew what you were doing and fear is a great creator of aggressive behaviour.

Selling these rights are a way for the organisers to create some more income for no expenditure on their part whilst adding another 'service' to their event. It is the same as the burger or ice cream van. Some of these are diabolical!

So just smile at these poor struggling folk, reassure them and like small children having a tantrum send them on their way! ;)
 
flavio said:
This has happened to me twice recently and the attitudes of these so called professionals leaves a lot to be desired.
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Obviously you're photographing at the wrong kinds of places. It's like walking into a Coca Cola sponsored event wearing a Pepsi shirt and moaning that you got kicked out by the organisers.
Oh, clearly the photographer IS a professional and not a "so called professional". How do I know that? She was being paid ;)
 
As a professional shouldn't she be confident enough that her pics would be that much better and sell despite the amateur competition.
 
What is annoying is when we can`t use flash, yet spectators and exhibitors seem to be able too.
 
POAH said:
I would have told her to GTF with an attitude like that. next time it happens say that you don't sell them but give people full rez images for nothing if they ask you lol
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LMFAO!!! :D:D:D


Light blue touch paper, and stand well back...
 
mustanir said:
Obviously you're photographing at the wrong kinds of places. It's like walking into a Coca Cola sponsored event wearing a Pepsi shirt and moaning that you got kicked out by the organisers.
Oh, clearly the photographer IS a professional and not a "so called professional". How do I know that? She was being paid ;)
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How can you photograph at the wrong sort of places?? He has every right to be there and regardless of whether this other TOG is pro or being paid there's no need to talk to people in that manner

Next time, politely and calmly tell her to duck right off :)
 
Blake said:
How can you photograph at the wrong sort of places?? He has every right to be there and regardless of whether this other TOG is pro or being paid there's no need to talk to people in that manner.
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No he does not have every right to photograph anywhere. If someone is being contracted to photograph an event and there is an exclusivity clause in that contract.. well, it should be a competition-free environment for that photographer. Ok, it really should be the event organiser's job to enforce it but the point still stands, one can not necessarily expect to have the right to shoot anywhere. You may be able to get away with it, clearly the OP didn't.

Also, it's nothing to do with how good the professional images are (or not). Even if the pro was the best photographer in the world, being undercut by a competitor is a problem. The customers don't always care about which image is better if something else good enough for them is available for less.
 
flavio said:
What bugs me the most is these event photographers can pay the organiser then get exclusive rights to photograph an event. My main problem with this is the quality of the images offered is not always particularly good and essentially the event organisers are effectively choosing which photographs are available to the riders.
In my opinion if the event photographers images were of sufficient quality to please their potential customers then they, the photographers, would have little to worry about.
I hate restrictive practice whatever form it takes and this is to my mind a prime example.
Any thoughts appreciated

Regards
Click to expand...

Strikes me there is a lot of this going on these days, professional??? togs that is . . . paranoid or what? Digital has opened the flood gates in their minds . . . ? Doubt that question was asked often in the 'good old days' . . . ?

Surly the professional way, be paid a retainer by the organisers, photo sales are a bonus and the organisers get 10% of all picture sales, that will sharpen their metal on policy? . . . :naughty:

I would never do an event with out the above, I did a Masonic a few years back, exclusive by its nature, no retainer, there was all and sundry whipping out their compacts . . . learned a lesson, never don a commission since with out an agreed fee . . . Funny that, not don any for a long while . . . Do I care :shrug:

I see no reason as a paying or invited visitor to the event 'with camera' why I should not be entitled to take pictures for my own pleasure . . . ? Unless of course, there is a great big notice at the entrance, "NO CAMERAS ALLLOWED, Event photo will be available to order from Fanny Biggs, Motor Mouth & Co., at the back of the portaloos at 4pm" . . . :shrug:

CJS . . . :thinking:
 
mustanir said:
No he does not have every right to photograph anywhere. If someone is being contracted to photograph an event and there is an exclusivity clause in that contract.. well, it should be a competition-free environment for that photographer. Ok, it really should be the event organiser's job to enforce it but the point still stands, one can not necessarily expect to have the right to shoot anywhere. You may be able to get away with it, clearly the OP didn't.

Also, it's nothing to do with how good the professional images are (or not). Even if the pro was the best photographer in the world, being undercut by a competitor is a problem. The customers don't always care about which image is better if something else good enough for them is available for less.
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I should have clarified I was there only to assist a client of mine, a horse owner, this is certainly not a breech of any rules or conditions in fact many top riders/ horse owners/ trainers/ have their own contracted photographers.
It was her attitude which bugged me, I`m not there to photograph the competitors in general and charge them £15.00 for a very average photograph printed at 7"x5", treat me with respect or face the consequences! ;);)
 
mustanir said:
No he does not have every right to photograph anywhere. If someone is being contracted to photograph an event and there is an exclusivity clause in that contract.. well, it should be a competition-free environment for that photographer. Ok, it really should be the event organiser's job to enforce it but the point still stands, one can not necessarily expect to have the right to shoot anywhere. You may be able to get away with it, clearly the OP didn't.

Also, it's nothing to do with how good the professional images are (or not). Even if the pro was the best photographer in the world, being undercut by a competitor is a problem. The customers don't always care about which image is better if something else good enough for them is available for less.
Click to expand...

But there will be loads of people snapping away with p&s cameras, just because someone has a dslr does not make them pro's
 
These days I really dont think any one, pro or not can claim to have total rights to photos at any event. It's down to the pro to get the best images that will sell, but maybe the reality is people just dont value photos as they used to...............
 
Flavio,
There is a small nucleus of regular togs at these events that hate anyone appearing on the turf,have had it myself,however I am not easily moved or swayed by such ignorant behaviour,and shall continue to fight this at every opportunity I get,as I am sure you will.

Your problem is you take too good a photos and know what you are doing unlike most of the so called event togs who from what I see and hear from competitors lack vision,skill and basic equipment.

P mode on a camera ? Does that mean Pro setting ,most them seem to use it,am I missing out ?:shake:

Pons
 
taking photos of your friend/family member/partner etc etc would be fine with me but if i suspected you were selling prints on to a wider audience id be having words too to be honest or getting the organiser to have words.

mind you its getting harder to spot these days, the last event i was shooting for there were a couple of spectators/friends of riders with L glass. so yes common sense is helpful.
 
I was at a track day doing some stuff for a magazine - editorial staff were on the track arsing about,like we do. Had one of the "official photographers" come up and start mouthing at me that he was the only photographer allowed to take pictures dida dida....he had a sudden accident with his camera. Couldn't take any more pictures that day as the bayonet broke when it hit the ground, still round his neck.

Event togs - leave me to do my work and I'll leave you to do yours. Think I'm harsh - wait till I get really wound up.

Se you at the Bulldog Bash.
 
Should have said - I don't give a warning. I just do it.
 
Pub shut now then................:lol:
 
neil_g said:
taking photos of your friend/family member/partner etc etc would be fine with me but if i suspected you were selling prints on to a wider audience id be having words too to be honest or getting the organiser to have words.

mind you its getting harder to spot these days, the last event i was shooting for there were a couple of spectators/friends of riders with L glass. so yes common sense is helpful.
Click to expand...

Let me explain, I have been a photographer for over twenty years, I own more pro kit than most event photographers and I have also worked over those twenty years as a pro at various times.

Scenario.....
One of my long standing customers/ clients/ friends asks me to attend an event and photograph their horse/rider, are you suggesting I decline?
Many top riders/ teams have their own contracted photographers are you really suggesting the resident event photographer can fulfil my clients specific needs, bear in mind the client may want my images and not those of another supposed photographer?
With respect I know of event photographers who employ staff for the minimum wage, who in many instances have virtually no knowledge of photography, they are then sat at a particular fence for ten hours after which they relinquish the copyright to all their images, the event photographer then tries to sell said images to a knowledgeable audience, wake up and get real,
event photography of which I know a lot about is in many instances killing the market, don`t dare blame people like me!!!!
How about treating the client with a certain level of discernment for a change.

Tony
 
Don't do pubs much. Lunchtime mostly.:D

I get really short tempered when I'm working and it doesn't take much to push me over the edge......corduroy trousers are a fuse.:cuckoo: The egit just came up and started on me. I just shut him up. He fell over.
 
fracster said:
Pub shut now then................:lol:
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OI, that nearly cost me a mouthful of beer. :lol:

I've been thinking of getting into this equine shooting lark. A bit off my beaten track but I have noticed that riding horses does nice things for bottoms. :)
 
Yeah, the corduroy trousers pizz me off as well, nearly as much as plus twos........:D
 
mustanir said:
No he does not have every right to photograph anywhere. If someone is being contracted to photograph an event and there is an exclusivity clause in that contract.. well, it should be a competition-free environment for that photographer. Ok, it really should be the event organiser's job to enforce it but the point still stands, one can not necessarily expect to have the right to shoot anywhere. You may be able to get away with it, clearly the OP didn't.

Also, it's nothing to do with how good the professional images are (or not). Even if the pro was the best photographer in the world, being undercut by a competitor is a problem. The customers don't always care about which image is better if something else good enough for them is available for less.
Click to expand...

well said mustanir. This is business, it's that simple... you have no 'right' to the photography at the private venue, and the venue owner has assigned all rights to commercial photography to that event photographer.

If you're shooting (non commercially) for just the one rider, just like everyone in the crowd, then fair enough I suppose, but it's every right of the venue owner / event photographer to proactively ensure that both sides of their deal are being kept to and that no other commercial photography is going on without prior agreement and compensation if appropriate...

fracster said:
What is annoying is when we can`t use flash, yet spectators and exhibitors seem to be able too.
Click to expand...

yup... once had alesha dixon take a camera from a random punter and get one of her backup dancers to take a photo of her with it... right after their PR agent had forbidden us from taking any photos whatsoever, and I was watching, without a camera, from the back... :bang:
 
flavio said:
Whilst I was there I had a walk around and took some more photos of some of the other competitors
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You did wrong. you got told off.. and considering your other posts it would seem you should have known better..
 
I popped into an equestrian event last sunday.. my first ever... I spoke to the organisors and got permision (did you get permission off organisors?) to photograph as I wanted a pic for ther local paper.. I was there less than half an hr so didnt see the official tog..

I emailed the official tog afterwards (easier to find online than in real life) and asked if he minded me putting some pics on my website.. he said OK so long as not for sale... so I did and very pic links to his website.. (proof is in the pudding www.kipax.com)

We both went to an equestrian event.. I asked permision from organisors and contacted the offical togs... it would seem you just went off shooting other competitors (as you say in your OP) ..One of us did things the right way.. one of us just presumed he had a right...
 
I do a lot of equestrian stuff, but only because my gf owns two horses and she's always asking me to take pictures of her and her friends showjumping! Of course its purely for her only and I do it because I enjoy it. I have to say I have never been approached by the official togs but then I dont take pics of any of the other competitors.

I think I would be cheesed off if I had an official tog in my face just because I had a DSLR around my neck though...
 
KIPAX said:
I popped into an equestrian event last sunday.. my first ever... I spoke to the organisors and got permision (did you get permission off organisors?) to photograph as I wanted a pic for ther local paper.. I was there less than half an hr so didnt see the official tog..

I emailed the official tog afterwards (easier to find online than in real life) and asked if he minded me putting some pics on my website.. he said OK so long as not for sale... so I did and very pic links to his website.. (proof is in the pudding www.kipax.com)

We both went to an equestrian event.. I asked permision from organisors and contacted the offical togs... it would seem you just went off shooting other competitors (as you say in your OP) ..One of us did things the right way.. one of us just presumed he had a right...
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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing :)

I am a paid up member of British Eventing as such have a general genuine interest in the sport.
The other photos I took were for my own pleasure and absolutely not for sale.
Are you saying because I have pro gear and take photos also for my own pleasure this was a crime.
I am more than aware of professional etiquette but I won`t bow to the supposed professionals in this instance, if they treat me with due respect as I treat others, then I would agree. Many times at these events I am pointing competitors towards the official event photographers many of whom I have a good relationship with, but today the official photog` acted like a complete arse, that`s not my fault. There is a place for all pro photographers but they need to treat their counterparts with the respect they expect.
regards
 
itsdavedotnet said:
well said mustanir. This is business, it's that simple... you have no 'right' to the photography at the private venue, and the venue owner has assigned all rights to commercial photography to that event photographer.

If you're shooting (non commercially) for just the one rider, just like everyone in the crowd, then fair enough I suppose, but it's every right of the venue owner / event photographer to proactively ensure that both sides of their deal are being kept to and that no other commercial photography is going on without prior agreement and compensation if appropriate...



yup... once had alesha dixon take a camera from a random punter and get one of her backup dancers to take a photo of her with it... right after their PR agent had forbidden us from taking any photos whatsoever, and I was watching, without a camera, from the back... :bang:
Click to expand...

Did you actually read the thread, if you did I think you missed many important points or chose to ignore them.:)
This is not a pro v amateur debate.
regards
 
flavio said:
I am a paid up member of British Eventing as such have a general genuine interest in the sport.
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your drip feeding information here then showing off when we dont know.. But you just highlighted how you really should ahve known better... I cant believe your a member and then suprised this has happened...

flavio said:
I am more than aware of professional etiquette
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then why are you wandering around taking pics of the other compettitors without having the good manners to ask or at least talk to the onsite tog

flavio said:
There is a place for all pro photographers but they need to treat their counterparts with the respect they expect.
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Exactly my point... you didnt afford the onsite tog that respect ...and you a "paid up member of British Eventing " as well ? :)
 
Ed Brown said:
Where was this event at please?
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Would rather not be specific at the moment, my client expects discretion, they are evaluating a horse!

Regards
Tony
 
KIPAX said:
your drip feeding information here then showing off when we dont know.. But you just highlighted how you really should ahve known better... I cant believe your a member and then suprised this has happened...



then why are you wandering around taking pics of the other compettitors without having the good manners to ask or at least talk to the onsite tog



Exactly my point... you didnt afford the onsite tog that respect ...and you a "paid up member of British Eventing " as well ? :)
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Sorry, I was certainly not showing off, not quite sure what you mean there!

I don`t need the official photographers permission to do what I was doing, there are no conditions of entry to the event that were applicable, besides their attitude confirmed to me that some people are ignorant, small-minded, and unnecessarily overtly aggressive (which never works with me).

Anyway, I don`t need permission for what I was doing, when I was photographing other competitors it was in a non professional capacity.
The quality of one`s equipment is no guarantee of the intention of the user especially in this day and age:)
 
Surely as a professional it would have been a common courtesy to make yourself known to the resident tog and that you were only there to cover your client - after all the resident may well have paid for exclusive rights to cover the event?

You are complaining that they did not treat you with common courtesy when it didn't have to arise in the first place if you had taken a simple and polite route of letting them know your intentions?
 
smoothedit said:
Surely as a professional it would have been a common courtesy to make yourself known to the resident tog and that you were only there to cover your client - after all the resident may well have paid for exclusive rights to cover the event?

You are complaining that they did not treat you with common courtesy when it didn't have to arise in the first place if you had taken a simple and polite route of letting them know your intentions?
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For God`s sake, what more can I say.
Guys please stop being so precious!
I`m not running along to report to another professional photographer my presence, it could be misconstrued as arrogance on my part. They are there doing there thing just as I am.
Their audience/ clients are not mine and I`m in no way affecting them unless my sheer presence fills them with dread which I doubt very much.

As a comparison do the other pro eventers run along to each other and announce their presence and to let them know they are competing at the same event, of course they don`t, they all go about their thing in a professional manner, they all have respect for each other and they just get on with it. Photographers are nothing special so please stop trying to make a special case, I guessing the guys here who are making these suggestions are
relatively new to the scene, please stop this nonsense, it`s getting quite absurd.
My original post remains about one insecure individuals lack of professionalism and respect towards another photographer, we don`t need to run around sucking up and asking permission, at the end of the day the customer should decide based only on the end product, not who pays a small fee (bribe) to the event organiser.
As with all things commercial market forces should be the only deciding factor, well that is if you believe in a free non restrictive market place.
Tony
 
Ignorance is showing all round here. Firstly if it was me and a client asked me to attend an event to take shots of their horse firstly I'd contact the organiser to ask permission. Remember events of this nature are held on private land or hired for the event. I'd then introduce myself to the event photographer and explain why I was there. This should then avoid any confrontations that the Op encountered. As a pro its called professional courtesy which appears to be sadly lacking these day.

I think we should also recognise the event photographer was only trying to guard the rights that they HAVE to pay for. We dont want to have to pay to attend, in many cases we just have to. Prices for some events have rocketed through competition and some exceeding 50%!

Full time pro's cannot compete with these figures as we have to earn a living and not just pin money that a few weekend warriors dont mind earning.

So for all of you who believe its a "free non restrictive market" well its not. If we have to pay to attend we want and for most of us have a contract with the organisers for exclusive rights. Again this has been forced upon us by cowboy operators taking pot shots and handing out cards. It is possible that the official pro has mistaken the OP for one of these due to not introducing himself. This is not " running around reporting to another photographer" just simple professional curtesy.

flavio said:
My original post remains about one insecure individuals lack of professionalism and respect towards another photographer
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I have highlighted part of this sentance which should apply both ways.

Having read the rest of your posts I think personally you have not dispayed any professionalism or common curtesy which has ended with the confrontation you encountered. Commissioned by a rider/owner or not the official photographer could have enforced their contractual rights and had you stopped from photographing or even removed from the event if you objected. Respect earns respect and a single phone call and quick hello could have avoided this. They are there to earn a living too and if they had photographed the said horse and the owner bought theirs and cancelled your commission how would you feel?

flavio said:
As a comparison do the other pro eventers run along to each other and announce their presence and to let them know they are competing at the same event, Tony
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Actually yes we do and at a recent event I turned up to find two other photographers (not my booking just covered for someone else). I introduced myself to both of them and even had a nice chat at the end. No animosity or bad feeling and one even phoned me a couple of days later asking if I could cover a job for him :thumbs:
 
It's not about "announcing your presence" so much as checking that it's ok and affording the professional (not a "supposed professional" as you keep referring to her as) the same politeness and courtesy you are demanding. Yes, lots of people turn up and take photos. Not so many turn up with DSLRs. Even fewer turn up looking like pros. No one has a "pro photographer radar" so if you look like a likely competitor (whether you are or not) you are more likely to be checked. Simple really.

Flounting rules is fun but getting caught is part of the game and if you don't wanna accept that, best not to play ;)
 
flavio said:
Let me explain, I have been a photographer for over twenty years, I own more pro kit than most event photographers and I have also worked over those twenty years as a pro at various times.

Scenario.....
One of my long standing customers/ clients/ friends asks me to attend an event and photograph their horse/rider, are you suggesting I decline?
Many top riders/ teams have their own contracted photographers are you really suggesting the resident event photographer can fulfil my clients specific needs, bear in mind the client may want my images and not those of another supposed photographer?
With respect I know of event photographers who employ staff for the minimum wage, who in many instances have virtually no knowledge of photography, they are then sat at a particular fence for ten hours after which they relinquish the copyright to all their images, the event photographer then tries to sell said images to a knowledgeable audience, wake up and get real,
event photography of which I know a lot about is in many instances killing the market, don`t dare blame people like me!!!!
How about treating the client with a certain level of discernment for a change.

Tony
Click to expand...

read my post again and tell me where i said that. i said if you were shooting for 1 person/client i wouldnt have a problem.

but as said it would be common decency to have a word with the official tog before hand, if nothing else just to check you werent going to get in their way.
 
I cannot defend anyone's attitude if they're being rude to you. However...

I own more pro kit than most event photographers
Click to expand...

What a presumptuous thing to say and smacks of 'the more kit I have, the better photographer I am' which is the hallmark of amateur wannabees.

Most event photographers that are set up to cover major equestrian events are full time Pro's, not just "worked over those twenty years as a pro at various times.".

Having the kit doesn't however make you a Professional.

You should also know that, being on private land you have no given right to photograph. The photographer who has a contract to be there does, and - the point that you seem to be missing - is that she has paid for that privilege.

What if the situation was reversed? You had to pay a substantial fee to attend the event and only earn your keep by selling to the public.

Hopefully the weather was good, otherwise you'd have gone home having to pay the staff and the organisers, but not having taken any money.

Aside from the organiser’s fee, there were probably 2 or more additional photographers and sales staff employed for the day to adequately cover the event. That's quite an initial outlay for no guaranteed income, but at least you have the security of knowing that your contract with the organisers gives you exclusive commercial shooting rights to the day.

If then another photographer who has paid nothing but was still shooting other competitors, certainly without paying for the privilege - possibly without the adequate insurances etc comes along - then how would you feel about that ?

Whether you agree or not with ‘restrictive practices’ or ‘business’ as it’s otherwise known, you don’t have free reign (topical pun) to shoot at a private event where someone else has the exclusive rights to do so. I don’t shoot equestrian, but if it had been my event I would have had you evicted from the venue.

I'm afraid that in my view your entire posting - with the exception of the comments about the rudeness of the incumbent photographer - has to be viewed as unprofessional and naive.
 
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