105, 120 or none of the above??

Asha

Asha

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Asha
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Opinions please relating to 4x5 / 5x4 LF

Having moved on my 90mm F/8 lens, I'm now in a quandry as to wether to put the funds towards another lens or not.

I have the following remaining focal lengths in my kit bag:

75mm
150mm
210mm
300mm

UWA 75mm is rarely used for anything except interiors and works very well for them so that's a keeper.

The longer lengths work fine for everything from landscapes, close ups and portraits so likewise they're going nowhere.

The standard 150mm probably sees the most use although there are odd occasions that it's not quite wide enough but I like it and it's standard length so that's probably the go to lens.


The 90mm however never seemed to fit anywhere for me tbh ( not unlike 28mm on 35mm format which often saw little use), hence me selling it.

Nonetheless there remains a considerable gap between the 150 and 75mm which i still feel needs a suitable lens to bridge it…...The question is "DOES IT NEED TO BE BRIDGED"

120mm is an option which would offer the equivalent of 37mm.....very close to the 35mm focal length that i rather like on 35mm format.

However, I am also very drawn towards 105mm although at 31mm I wonder am I going to find that, not unlike the 90mm, too wide.

Having not got on with the 90mm, I've naturally fallen back on the 150mm in the field knowing that any composition requiring wider will simply be lost with 75mm ( and not much better with the 90!)
I've managed up to press but have found myself somewhat frustrated knowing that "just a little bit more" would be beneficial.

So what to do?
105mm, 120mm or neither?
 
Just my opinion but I would go for as wide as you feel you might want to - you can always print a smaller section should you want/need a slightly narrower angle of view but shooting even a couple of shots to create a wider panorama is rather less of an easy option on LF!
 
I can't really help you Asha, but here are some thoughts from Kerry Thalman, including his view of your departed Nikon. http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/future.htm

90mm f8 Nikkor SW (355g, 67mm, 235mm) - see Figure 2.
The lightest of all modern (Biogon derivative) multi-coated 90mm wide angle lenses. It is an excellent performer, with great coatings (NIC). It's relatively compact size and lightweight (lighter than the 90mm Super Angulon at 390g, the 90mm f8 Fujinon SW at 407g and 90mm f6.8 Grandagon-N at 460g) make it a favorite for 4x5 field photography. It also has substantially greater coverage (235mm) than the other compact (slow) modern 90mm wide angles (216mm for the Super Angulon and Fujinon SW - 221mm for the Grandagon-N).

110mm f5.6 Schneider Super Symmar XL (430g, 67mm - front, 52mm -rear, 288mm) - see Figure 2.
This is the lens that started this whole discussion. Well, I had to wait seven months for mine to arrive (of course, they are available off the shelf these days), but it was well worth the wait. This is one fantastic lens - absolutely amazing sharpness from corner to corner. The illumination on the ground glass is bright and even. I instantly found the 110mm focal length to be a very comfortable moderate wide angle for the way I like to work (I don't use my 90mm nearly as much these days). This lens is not tiny, but with105 degree coverage, it is a LOT smaller than the 100 degree 120mm f8 Super Angulon (700g, 82mm, 288mm) it is destined to replace - and a full stop faster as well. As a frame of reference, it's slightly smaller and lighter than the typical modern 210mm f5.6 plasmat. The rear element is quite tiny, and is threaded for 52mm filters (a nice touch - especially since I have standardized around this size filters for my backpacking lenses). The relatively small size and light weight, combined with huge coverage and mind boggling performance make this lens an instant classic, and quite simply the most amazing large format optic I have ever used. It can also serve double duty as a "very wide" for 5x7 use. Now, if only Schneider would give it a baby brother (it already has a mommy - the 150 SS XL and a BIG daddy - the 210mm SS XL). An 85mm SS XL would be the ultimate 4x5 wide angle for us backpackers, or anyone else who favors compact, lightweight lenses with generous coverage and outstanding sharpness.

120mm f5.6 Schneider Super Symmar HM (390g, 67mm, 211mm) - see Figure 2.
Another lens I feel is destined to be a classic for 4x5 field photographers. It is really the only modern lens in the desirable 120mm focal length that is best suited for this application (the 120mm APO Symmar (190g, 49mm, 179mm) is lacking in coverage, the 115mm Grandagon-N (740g, 82mm, 291mm), 120mm Nikkor SW (610g, 77mm, 312mm) and 120mm Super Angulon (700g, 82mm, 288mm - discontinued, see 110mm Super Symmar XL above) are really 5x7 wide angles and therefore much larger and heavier). It is not a tiny lens, but it weighs about 1/2 the 115mm Grandagon-N. This one could be shoved aside by the new 110mm Super Symmar XL (which again is more of a 5x7 wide angle, but small enough to be favored by 4x5 shooters as well). BTW, personally, I love this lens for 6x17cm and it is currently mounted on my home made 6x17 point and shoot. Note: At the time I originally wrote this, I was not aware that the 125mm f5.6 Fujinon CM-W (265g, 67mm, 204mm) was available. The Fujinon is slightly longer in focal length than the Super Symmar HM, nearly as sharp, with only slightly less coverage. It is a little more compact, and significantly lighter, and also quite a bit less expensive. Due to the ever-so-slightly better performance and the extra smidgen of coverage, I still prefer the 120mm Super Symmar XL as a general purpose lens, but the 125mm Fujinon warrants serious consideration as a backpacking lens, or for those on a more modest budget. Also, now that the 110mm Super Symmar XL is readily available, used prices on the 120mm Super Symmar HM seem to have dropped a little. This may make it an exceptional bargain for those who desire Super Symmar performance, but can get by without the huge coverage of the 110mm SS XL.
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Nod said:
Just my opinion but I would go for as wide as you feel you might want to - you can always print a smaller section should you want/need a slightly narrower angle of view but shooting even a couple of shots to create a wider panorama is rather less of an easy option on LF!
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Cheers Nod, that's all I ask for is folks opinion.
The end decision naturally lies with me!

Tbh I'm my own worst enemy.

The 90mm I found was not wide enough for many internal shots that i attempted so I went mega wide and bought a 65mm which I then simply found toooo wide for anything.!

The 75mm came along and hey presto, for the best part, fulfills that area of togging perfectly so the 65mm went on its merry way and I've had no regrets, the 75 having given me a number of very pleasing results..

I hung onto to the 90mm believing it would fill in between the widest lens and the 150mm but no, it simply frustrated me carrying it around, mounting it, disliking the FoV and lugging it back home unused.

I agree fully with what you say about cropping / printing a smaller section ( particularly from a LF neg) but for some ( peculiar) reason I have issues with that.

Firstly and probably most importantly, I find it extremely dificult to visualise the end result if what I compose on the GG is somewhat different to what I want on the final print.

If for example the composure includes part of a parked car say to the RHS of the scene then OK I can imagine that cropped out and "see" the rest of the image as a final result.
If however it requires a considerable crop from more than one edge of the frame then I struggle to block out those areas and as such they impose on my overall ability to compose the "wanted" scene correctly.

A prime example from only a fortnight ago on 10x8.
A new format size to me and indeed a new outfit recently acquired although i have shot a few frames of whole plate years ago.
The subject matter found was pleasing although ideally would have been more suited to one of my 4x5 outfits with longer bellows draw as i found out once set up for the shot.

Focal length and more importantly bellows extension posed considerable limitations on what I had hoped to achieve, nonetheless I perserveered and adapted the composure ( from a greater distance) .
The resulting image, imo, does not work unless i crop it considerably down to what would be about a 5x7 frame.
That would give me a reasonable photograph tbh and I'm confident that the IQ is there to print upto A3 size BUT ( this is where it gets strange lol) , I feel that somewhere I am cheating on myself ...How nuts is that!! LOL

I've had similar issues stemming from 4x5 negs that would offer the equivalent of a ( 6x6 or 6x4.5) MF neg if cropped down ....I know I'm seriously wierd!:geek::LOL:
 
Could make a couple of masks from thin card that you can hold over the ground glass, which show the crops that 105mm and 120mm would give compared to the 90mm. Try a few compositions (without necessarily taking photos), see which you prefer, and then go for whichever lens suits.
 
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Nomad Z said:
Could make a couple of masks from thin card that you can hold over the ground glass, which show the crops that 105mm and 120mm would give compared to the 90mm. Try a few compositions (without necessarily taking photos), see which you prefer, and then go for whichever lens suits.
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You know summat, that's such a simple idea yet potentially perfect! (y)

Nomad Z said:
see which you prefer, and then go for whichever lens suits.
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I was, ( very slowly) talking myself out of spending my new found funds but ( as usual) the frustie crusties of TP do their best to ensure i remain skint!:bat::LOL:
 
I've got a little 125mm fujinon that I quite like. It's not got too much coverage but it's good for landscape work but I think it would be a little tight if you were using a lot of movements.
 
steveo_mcg said:
I've got a little 125mm fujinon that I quite like. It's not got too much coverage but it's good for landscape work but I think it would be a little tight if you were using a lot of movements.
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Sounds like a nice little number although I think 125mm would be too close to 150mm to justify it as an additional lens in the bag tbh.

As for image circle, I typically need a moderate coverage as shooting predominantly architecture, the movements can sometimes be a little extreme, or at least more than what would typically be needed for the average landscape shot.
 
Asha said:
Sounds like a nice little number although I think 125mm would be too close to 150mm to justify it as an additional lens in the bag tbh.

As for image circle, I typically need a moderate coverage as shooting predominantly architecture, the movements can sometimes be a little extreme, or at least more than what would typically be needed for the average landscape shot.
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If 125 is too close to 150mm 120 isn't going to be noticeably wider in that case I'd say the 105mm is the way to go.
 
If remaining skint and shooting architectural/interiors is your thing, get a Schneider 110mm XL. It'll cost a fortune, but sits right where you appear to need it, and has 5x7 coverage.

To reiterate the warning. This is not a cheap lens...
 
Lol I’d already come across that lens and as @Woodsy says it would probably fit exactly where I want it, however I think that maybe a 105mm at a fraction of the cost would prove more appealing and without doubt mire realistic ;)
 
@Asha you could look at the Fujinon lenses, which are generally small and not too expensive. This list that @C&C told us about gives the secret for buying a lens with EBC coating. In 105mm there's a f/8 NSW (marked SW I think) which has quite a large coverage, or a much smaller and lighter NW f/5.6 with limited coverage, ignoring the much more expensive CM-W (I think @Woodsy has some of these).
 
Cheers Chris I’ll take a closer look at that list later.
For 105mm I was considering the Nikon W 105mm F/ 5.6 but I am open to other suggestions and of course a check in specs, particularly coverage needs to be compared before I choose any of them.
 
ChrisR said:
@Asha you could look at the Fujinon lenses, which are generally small and not too expensive. This list that @C&C told us about gives the secret for buying a lens with EBC coating. In 105mm there's a f/8 NSW (marked SW I think) which has quite a large coverage, or a much smaller and lighter NW f/5.6 with limited coverage, ignoring the much more expensive CM-W (I think @Woodsy has some of these).
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Sadly, I'm afraid I do not. The only Fujinon lens I have is the A 300mm. I was considering the 125mm CM-W around the time I was purchasing a lens in this region, but went for a schneider instead.

Asha said:
Cheers Chris I’ll take a closer look at that list later.
For 105mm I was considering the Nikon W 105mm F/ 5.6 but I am open to other suggestions and of course a check in specs, particularly coverage needs to be compared before I choose any of them.
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The Nikon 105mm W has such poor coverage, you'll have barely any movements on 5x4 as it has an image circle of 155mm. The fuji 105mm CM-W has a more reasonable 174mm, so I'd save for this one instead if I were you.
 
Woodsy said:
The Nikon 105mm W has such poor coverage, you'll have barely any movements on 5x4 as it has an image circle of 155mm. The fuji 105mm CM-W has a more reasonable 174mm, so I'd save for this one instead if I were you.
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Thanks for that info Woodsy, ….155mm is pretty carp, I wonder if the covergae was destined more for 9x12cm ( european version of 4x5 kind of!) or even 6x9 MF

Either way it's not for me.

as you say 174mm is more reasonable.

I wonder what else, besides the Schneider 110mm XL, is available in the 105 / 110 mm range with decent coverage. ….( goes off surfing ....lol)
 
I'd split the difference between 75mm and 150mm and go for a 110 - IF I THOUGHT IT WORTHWHILE. For me, no. The diffence between the focal lengths is easily bridged by cropping. If, as you say, the 90mm didn't see much use, I can't see something only slightly longer faring any better.

On the card mask front - the old dodge, often recommended and never tried (by me) is a card mask in the correct proportion with an attached piece of string with knots in, the knot position being arranged so that if held such that the knot touched your nose and the mask was held such that the string was taut, then looking through the mask gave tou the appropriate angle of view. All you have to do to place the knots in the correct position.
 
StephenM said:
I'd split the difference between 75mm and 150mm and go for a 110 - IF I THOUGHT IT WORTHWHILE. For me, no. The diffence between the focal lengths is easily bridged by cropping. If, as you say, the 90mm didn't see much use, I can't see something only slightly longer faring any better.

On the card mask front - the old dodge, often recommended and never tried (by me) is a card mask in the correct proportion with an attached piece of string with knots in, the knot position being arranged so that if held such that the knot touched your nose and the mask was held such that the string was taut, then looking through the mask gave tou the appropriate angle of view. All you have to do to place the knots in the correct position.
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I actually have one ( a mask of sorts) which would just need a cord attaching to it.

Tbh I am wondering wether it is going to be worthwhile, the one thing that drives me to try say a 105mm is if like the 90mm it barely sees daylight, then I'm confident that I would be able to move it on with very little or no financial loss.

We know that there is no direct comparison to FoV between 4x5 and 35mm but if for the sake of argument the differences between 150 and 105mm lenses correspond somewhere close to the differences between a 50mm & 35mm lens on the smaller format, then that really has got my wondering as with an SLR, taking a couple or three steps forward or backward from the subject pretty much addresses the difference in focal length so theoretically, similar with LF....or am I missing something?
 
Nomad has covered my next suggestion, although mine would have been what Dad used to do when using his old Rollei? (can't remember if it was a cord or flex!) with the 35mm insert - he drew the crop on the top of the GG in chinagraph pencil.

He also had a focal length chooser for 35mm - a slide mount on a graduated rod. Just slide the mount along the rod (with the end just touching his cheek) until the required framing was achieved in the mount then read off the FL. (My solution is far easier - I use zooms!!!)
 
Nomad Z said:
Could make a couple of masks from thin card that you can hold over the ground glass, which show the crops that 105mm and 120mm would give compared to the 90mm.
Click to expand...

If you have an iPhone and a spare $4.99 you can buy the Viewfinder Preview app which can be configured to show your choice of focal lengths, and indeed to take a digi photo of the scene using that focal length. You can also configure the film you intend to use so, for example, you can see how the scene will work in mono.
 
Kevin Allan said:
If you have an iPhone and a spare $4.99 you can buy the Viewfinder Preview app which can be configured to show your choice of focal lengths, and indeed to take a digi photo of the scene using that focal length. You can also configure the film you intend to use so, for example, you can see how the scene will work in mono.
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I think that I've found it.

Is it developed by ADAM FOWLER ?

( In french, sorry!)..... https://apps.apple.com/fr/app/viewfinder-preview/id1216484605

EDIT ;;;;In english;): …………. https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/viewfinder-preview/id1216484605
 
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Woodsy said:
.



The Nikon 105mm W has such poor coverage, you'll have barely any movements on 5x4 as it has an image circle of 155mm. The fuji 105mm CM-W has a more reasonable 174mm, so I'd save for this one instead if I were you.
Click to expand...

It seems that for coverage the Fujinon SW 105mm f/8.0 with a 250mm image circle designed to cover 5x7 would probably be a better option even for 4x5 format

Ok so it's a stop darker for composing but tbh that never posed me a problem with the 90mm F/8, in the same way that my 300mm F/9 offers a bright enough scene on the GG when wide open.
 
Kevin Allan said:
If you have an iPhone and a spare $4.99 you can buy the Viewfinder Preview app which can be configured to show your choice of focal lengths, and indeed to take a digi photo of the scene using that focal length. You can also configure the film you intend to use so, for example, you can see how the scene will work in mono.
Click to expand...

I have that and find it quite useful.
Asha said:
... if for the sake of argument the differences between 150 and 105mm lenses correspond somewhere close to the differences between a 50mm & 35mm lens on the smaller format, then that really has got my wondering as with an SLR, taking a couple or three steps forward or backward from the subject pretty much addresses the difference in focal length so theoretically, similar with LF....or am I missing something?
Click to expand...

Yes! The angles of view of different focal length lenses are different, and affect the image (or more correctly perhaps, the distance from the image affects the image, the angle of view then affects how much you can get in). To take it to the extreme, imagine you are a long way from a scene and use your telephoto, then move much closer and use your wide angle, you'll obviously get very different images: compressed perspective in the telephoto case, and relative enlargment of closer objects in the second. All IMHO!

That said, if you are many paces from a scene, then your "couple or three steps" probably don't make too much difference?
 
Asha said:
It seems that for coverage the Fujinon SW 105mm f/8.0 with a 250mm image circle designed to cover 5x7 would probably be a better option even for 4x5 format

Ok so it's a stop darker for composing but tbh that never posed me a problem with the 90mm F/8, in the same way that my 300mm F/9 offers a bright enough scene on the GG when wide open.
Click to expand...

If you can find the NSW (I think) you'll get the EBC coating as well. The clue is that the writing is on the lens barrel rather than the front of the lens. There's one on fleabay now for not too much money...
 
Kevin Allan said:
I had meant to include a link sorry - but yes you have found the same app
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No worries Kevin.... I’ve bought it and am just customising the focal lengths ;)
I think it’s going to prove very helpful.... thanks!
 
Asha said:
Oops! :sorry:
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To be fair I had been looking for some time, for a 300mm lens, preferably in the UK or EU, at a reasonable price, so this met an existing need, or at least an existing want. I had been looking for Nikkor M 300mm f9, wich is very compact but much more expensive.

I'll be going back to North Wales for a few days in early January so will probably try it out then.
 
Kevin Allan said:
To be fair I had been looking for some time, for a 300mm lens, preferably in the UK or EU, at a reasonable price, so this met an existing need, or at least an existing want. I had been looking for Nikkor M 300mm f9, wich is very compact but much more expensive.

I'll be going back to North Wales for a few days in early January so will probably try it out then.
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Tbh if you're using it on the intrepid 4x5 then the fact that it's a Tele lens may prove invaluble.

I have a 300mm F/9 APO ( iirc) lens which is compact and I have to say I rather like it.
It doesn't see use on the Intrepid though as I have the Mk3 which, to obtain infinity focus pushes the camera and it's bellows draw to the limit.
It's doable but I prefer o use one of my other outfits that allows more leeway.

I don't know if the Mk4 has slightly longer bellows?

Either way if you can get 300mm infinity focus at about 200mm draw then that's gotta be a good thing, especially to reduce possible "kite flying experiences" if it's blowing a gale! lol
 
I must admit, I too refreshed myself with availability and prices of some lenses... I didn't buy anything though at least!
 
Woodsy said:
I must admit, I too refreshed myself with availability and prices of some lenses... I didn't buy anything though at least!
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I need you discipline I think.

I have so many possible "wants" in my basket, I have to be careful not to accidently click on the confirm purchase button as the total last time I looked exceeded 5K :police:

Admittedly that includes a Canham MQC 5x7, which no I won't be buying…..Or at least I don't think I will :runaway::LOL::LOL:
 
Woodsy said:
I must admit, I too refreshed myself with availability and prices of some lenses... I didn't buy anything though at least!
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But did you write a letter to Nikki Santa? ;)
 
Ffordes have a 300mm M lens atm. £400 though. It's at least a light lens!

Asha said:
I need you discipline I think.

I have so many possible "wants" in my basket, I have to be careful not to accidently click on the confirm purchase button as the total last time I looked exceeded 5K :police:

Admittedly that includes a Canham MQC 5x7, which no I won't be buying…..Or at least I don't think I will :runaway::LOL::LOL:
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I'm in a very lucky position whereby I actually have pretty much all the LF kit I want. Granted it's cost me a lot over time, but I'm largely very happy.


...Apart from my 90mm Nikkor... which I really want to change to the F/8 version but there are literally none in the UK! Grumble.
 
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Woodsy said:
...Apart from my 90mm Nikkor... which I really want to change to the F/8 version but there are literally none in the UK! Grumble.
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They come up every now and then! Was even considering buying one in the US a few years ago but luckily found one here on eBay at the same time a discount code offer was active.
 
Peter B said:
But did you write a letter to Nikki Santa? ;)
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I did…...To Santa, not Nikki! :p

He told me that I deserve nothing having being a naught biy and already "opened" my xmas box for this year ...the Intrepid 10x8


I have however received my maco delivery today which includes a box of suitably large sheet film for above mentioned outfit!

With red, festive colour bellows, what better time to get out and show it off use it ;)
 
If you ever see one in the UK, can you let me know? I've got ebay alerts for this lens, but never seem to catch one. At present it would appear they are all in Japan :(
 
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