Zoo's good or bad?

I was thinking exactly along those lines Viv.

Strictly speaking anyone who owns a dog or cat or hamster (I could go on and normally do) etc. is guilty of slavery.
Sheepdogs, slaves? They love to work as it's in their genetic make up.

The world is full of fine lines between this and that and this is far too big a subject for this forum (and the wrong place to discuss it at all if I'm honest).

Let's just be friends, agree to disagree and tuck into a figurative rare steak / Quorn lattice together and quaff some ale / wine
 
You're going to keep these animals (and I'm assuming you're talking ALL farmed species here) in an environment which limits their ability to roam, segregate male from female so that they cannot breed, feed them, take care of their health and wellbeing until such time as they die?
That's not a "rescue centre". That, right there is a zoo you're running.
The only difference is that instead of ANY form of conservation, or concern for animal welfare, your only aim is to eradicate the species.
It's clear you have no thought for animal welfare at all, and I certainly wouldn't use the term "ethical" to describe anything you suggested so far.
You also brushed very blythely over @Gremlin question regarding assistance animals (and they're far from being all dogs). Would you suggest that ALL assistance animals are living miserable lives in abject slavery? (there's that laughable word again).
You don't condone animal "slavery" at all, (so I hope you don't keep pets of any kind), but you're more than happy to sanction the genocide (since you seem to enjoy the use of such emotive language) of dozens of animal species simply because they do not fit your menu.
Armchair activism....If nothing else it's rather ironically amusing.

As this isn't something that is going to happen any time soon, I obviously haven't created a full scale plan on how to house these ex farm animals. I would assume they'd be neutered so they can't reproduce. You may say that this is unethical and effectively keeping them in a zoo but I made no mention of segregating the sexes. The individuals would live good lives until they died and the species would die out. This also may sound unethical to you but the alternative is what we have now, factory farming on a mass scale. Which is the more ethical choice? Why would we want to conserve a species that is man made and has no place in any ecosystem on the planet?

As for my concern for animal welfare, you do not know me at all and have jumped to a conclusion based on false evidence. What have I said that makes me seem to have no thought for animal wefare? Closing zoos or taking animals out of the supply chain of farming?

Please, did I mention assistance animals being kept in abject slavery? I said nothing of the sort. I said as long as they live happy lives I can accept it. The definition of slavery is "1. The condition in which one person is owned as property by another and is under the owner's control, especially in involuntary servitude.". What about that statement is laughable and doesn't fit with keeping animals? It's not an emotive word and I don't use it for emoitve purposes. It's a fact pure and simple, I can't help that.

No I have never kept any pets.

The word genoside means the systematic killing of a large group of people or ethnic group. What I propose is not the definition of genoside. Allowing animals to live out their natural lives in order to stop factory farming is not the definition of genoside. These dozens of species are created by man, they are not on any natural 'menu'. It's not about what I, you or anybody else wants. It's about what is best for each individual animal. I don't see a cow/pig etc. living out a happy life in order to stop future individuals living a life in a factory farm as an unethical thing.
 
I was thinking exactly along those lines Viv.

Strictly speaking anyone who owns a dog or cat or hamster (I could go on and normally do) etc. is guilty of slavery.
Sheepdogs, slaves? They love to work as it's in their genetic make up.

The world is full of fine lines between this and that and this is far too big a subject for this forum (and the wrong place to discuss it at all if I'm honest).

Let's just be friends, agree to disagree and tuck into a figurative rare steak / Quorn lattice together and quaff some ale / wine

You are of course right, this is much too big an issue to discuss on here and something I've discussed many times before anyway. It never gets anywhere except to cause arguements so I don't really see a point in continuing. I know it's not cut and dry so let's just forget it and I'll tuck into a figurative vegan product and some vegan ale/wine (quorn isn't vegan, except for 2 new products and many types of ale/wine aren't vegan either) :P I'm not taking any of this to heart as I know it's an emotive subject so let's get on with photography! :)
 
You ask a simple, but essentially unanswerable question about zoos and then bale out from the ensuing discussion..?

You have (I assume) chosen a vegan lifestyle and expect others to align with your views on zoos in general and in addition widen the gamut to include farm animals and pets.

Let's face it the elephant in the room (pun intended) is that there are simply too many humans in the world that as a minimum require food and water every day. Without industrialised agriculture, many more millions of humans would die of starvation than are already doing so each day. Perhaps we need to start neutering humans to prevent them from breeding and so they can then peacefully die out after living out their natural lives? Hmm... perhaps we should put that one aside for the moment.

Domesticated livestock has existed for a few thousand years and even though you don't agree with humans consuming meat or using other animal products as part of our lives, that doesn't alter the the fact that we are omnivores and have been doing just that since (and perhaps before) we came down from the trees. Just take a look at a set of human teeth, that tells a pretty good story of the the things we have evolved to consume as food.

I do fully agree that wherever humans 'harvest' animals as part of our food chain, the treatment of the animals should be carried out in a fit and proper manner. On a personal level, we purchase locally sourced meat for our family. We are quite satisfied that the animals are treated in an appropriate manner when they are alive and do not undergo long uncomfortable journeys on the way to their death. Sadly I know that is not the case everywhere.

Some, perhaps many aspects of human behaviour towards animals are abhorrent. Nevertheless, animal products (flesh for food, skin for leather, etc..) have been a part of mankind's livelihood for millennia. Personally, I don't see that changing anytime soon.

To come back to your question about zoos. Ideally, humans would not have trashed the rainforests and messed up other important habitats. They would not have hunted some species of animals to extinction. We are now living in a more enlightened age, where at least these issues are being discussed. I see the principle role of modern zoos to a "Noah's Ark", where we can perhaps preserve some of the animal diversity while it's still there to preserve; in the hope that one day sufficient and appropriate natural habitat exists where the animals can be reintroduced/released into the wild.

100-years ago, zoos were constructed to house an array of curiosities from the wild, for the public to amuse themselves. By the way according to material in visitor centre, the concentration camp at Bergen-Belsen was seen in the same way by the local populace, who while out for a stroll on a Sunday afternoon would peer through the barbed wire fences at the 'inhuman' inmates. So this seems to be a voyeuristic behaviour that is part of our being. Today, there is no doubt that the public curiosity aspect (footfall and therefore entry money) is an important factor for any zoo, but hopefully the animal husbandry and welfare is of a higher standard, and there is a more concerted effort to hold collections that may one day provide an opportunity to contribute to the natural world. In other words, I believe that at least for some zoos, their principle objectives address a higher calling.

Patently I am not vegan, that's your choice, it's not an easy one and I do respect the commitment that goes with that decision. No leather shoes, woolly jumpers, limited choice of beer (actually the biggest issue :) ), etc.. However, please don't assume that by choosing to be a vegan, you by default own the moral high ground on these issues.
 
I do feel, as i said before that many zoos over play the amount of money of their profit which is spend on conservation and trade off the assumption that people have that that happens. I think this varies from zoo to zoo and that all zoos have their good and bad. I went to a lot of zoos as a kid and was a member of the Dodo Club at Jersey Zoo as we went so often. Even Seaworld which some of people in the anti captivity movement would like to paint as all bad, arent, it's not as simple as that - Seaworld whilst keeping orcas and apparently not always treating them very well either, do run a very valuable and successful Manatee rescue and rehabilitation program in Florida, of course I know there is some business aspect to this and promotion of themselves, but the bottom line is this IS good work they are good for these vulnerable animals and if Seaworld just went bust like many seem to wish - it would be terrible to see this work go by the way side.

i try not to go to zoos any more, but i do feel they play a part in getting kids passionate about animals and therefore conserving them. I loved whales before I went to Seaworld (and i went many times as a kid) but i cannot deny that it fueled my interest in them - and the passion that i have now directed into trying to raise awareness of the conditions they are in now, be that through guilt primarily or other wise. I think good zoos may have a role in conservation of endangered species, but small steps to improve what zoos are considering as animals that 'should' be kept needs to happen. Orcas and bottlenose dolphins are not endangered for example. It would be nice to follow Born Free's line of thinking in using money to protect natural habitats and rescue and release programs rather than 'heres my shiny collection of animals'.

on the vegan/animal debate - i'm not a vegan so not my area, but i know quite a few vegans who have many cats, who are obligate carnivores to HAVE to eat meat to be healthy and survive - so where is the line drawn? Im not accusing anyone, - just wondering if there is a line of thinking in the vegan community about this area of veganism.
 
Domesticated livestock has existed for a few thousand years and even though you don't agree with humans consuming meat or using other animal products as part of our lives, that doesn't alter the the fact that we are omnivores.

Actually, no. We are frugivores. We would get ill on a raw meat diet so cannot be considered to br natural meat eaters.

Back to the subject of zoos, ideally they shouldn't exist, but I think some do good conservation work. Sandown zoo on the Isle of Wight is a good case of this, specialising in tigers. It also has the support of Chris Packham - but he might be biased as he's going out with its owner, Charlotte Corney!


Steve.
 
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Actuyally, no. We are frugivores. We would get ill on a raw meat diet so cannot be considered to br natural meat eaters.


Steve.
So man didn't eat meat until he discovered fire and learned how to cook a steak?
Chimps hunt down and eat monkeys as part of their diet. All part of nature's rich tapestry in my view.
 
Never been ill as a result of eating steak tartare or sashimi myself.

Been a while since I heard such a poorly thought out idea as that proposed concerning neutering all farm animals thus reducing most creatures' sole reason for existence!

As for the original question, yes. Some are good, some are bad. Hopefully the bad ones will end up getting closed down while the good ones thrive but some of the good will go down while some bad will keep raking it in.
 
As this isn't something that is going to happen any time soon, I obviously haven't created a full scale plan on how to house these ex farm animals..

Well, clearly, as is oft' the case with so called "animal activists".

You state this:

I care about the individual not the species. They each have feelings and emotions and it should not be for us to decide which members will be imprisoned for the survival of the species as a whole.

And this:

Every individual on the planet from an ant to a human has the same right to a free, uninterrupted (by humans) life. We are not as special as people seem to think.

But yet later you say this:

…..they'd be neutered so they can't reproduce.

And:

Why would we want to conserve a species that is man made and has no place in any ecosystem on the planet?

Now which is it to be? Because it looks a lot like you think it is for you and others of your ilk to decide which species (and therefore which individuals) survive and which are targeted for extinction…..and those later statements seem to be not quite so free (let’s keep ‘em in a rescue centre till we kill ‘em), and extremely interrupted by humans (Hey, I know…let’s neuter ‘em!!)

How the species have evolved with man’s interference is utterly irrelevant. They exist now, they are here.

You cannot pick and choose which species warrant your compassion, because they are ALL individuals, and, under quote #2, have the same rights as you or I, making this statement:

.I want animals to survive or die out based on the rules of natural selection and without human interference. .

....An absolute nonsense. Neutering isn’t interference? Absurd.

Under your increasingly chaotic criteria, we would also have to eradicate almost all breeds of cats, dogs, in fact sod it….let’s just put ALL domesticated animals on your kill list, since they’ve all had the human hand of interference.

Your oxymoronic statements make it impossible to take you seriously.
 
Well, clearly, as is oft' the case with so called "animal activists".

You state this:



And this:



But yet later you say this:



And:



Now which is it to be? Because it looks a lot like you think it is for you and others of your ilk to decide which species (and therefore which individuals) survive and which are targeted for extinction…..and those later statements seem to be not quite so free (let’s keep ‘em in a rescue centre till we kill ‘em), and extremely interrupted by humans (Hey, I know…let’s neuter ‘em!!)

How the species have evolved with man’s interference is utterly irrelevant. They exist now, they are here.

You cannot pick and choose which species warrant your compassion, because they are ALL individuals, and, under quote #2, have the same rights as you or I, making this statement:



....An absolute nonsense. Neutering isn’t interference? Absurd.

Under your increasingly chaotic criteria, we would also have to eradicate almost all breeds of cats, dogs, in fact sod it….let’s just put ALL domesticated animals on your kill list, since they’ve all had the human hand of interference.

Your oxymoronic statements make it impossible to take you seriously.

Whatever, I've said I'm out. Everything I've said is logical and although not perfect is the best alternative to the current situation. Goodbye
 
Whatever, I've said I'm out. Everything I've said is logical and although not perfect is the best alternative to the current situation. Goodbye

Shocker.
 
I'd just like to point out that I missed quite a few posts as I hadn't realised this had gone onto a second page and I missed some of the first page posts.
The following is mainly aimed at @GeeJay57.
I didn't start this debate, all I said on another thread was that someone was right to feel in two minds about keeping orcas in captivity and gave a link to some films about that. I was never intending for this to get into a zoo or vegan debate as I really can't be bothered to argue this again and again as I have done for years. I chose this way of life and I'm not forcing it upon anybody else so I'm not going to have a big long discussion justifying my reasons.

I could reply to every comment on here directed at me with a structured argument but I haven't got the time to write essays worth of text on here (using my small phone screen too). Life is too short and we'll likely never agree so what is the use? I'm sure we all have better things to do with our spare time.
 
I'd just like to point out that I missed quite a few posts as I hadn't realised this had gone onto a second page and I missed some of the first page posts.
The following is mainly aimed at @GeeJay57.
I didn't start this debate, all I said on another thread was that someone was right to feel in two minds about keeping orcas in captivity and gave a link to some films about that. I was never intending for this to get into a zoo or vegan debate as I really can't be bothered to argue this again and again as I have done for years. I chose this way of life and I'm not forcing it upon anybody else so I'm not going to have a big long discussion justifying my reasons.

I could reply to every comment on here directed at me with a structured argument but I haven't got the time to write essays worth of text on here (using my small phone screen too). Life is too short and we'll likely never agree so what is the use? I'm sure we all have better things to do with our spare time.
I wouldn't bother worrying about it. You've said your piece, others wont agree with everything you say, but have plenty of time to make it known. Zoos are good and bad. End of.
 
I'd just like to point out that I missed quite a few posts as I hadn't realised this had gone onto a second page and I missed some of the first page posts.
The following is mainly aimed at @GeeJay57.
I didn't start this debate, all I said on another thread was that someone was right to feel in two minds about keeping orcas in captivity and gave a link to some films about that. I was never intending for this to get into a zoo or vegan debate as I really can't be bothered to argue this again and again as I have done for years. I chose this way of life and I'm not forcing it upon anybody else so I'm not going to have a big long discussion justifying my reasons.

I could reply to every comment on here directed at me with a structured argument but I haven't got the time to write essays worth of text on here (using my small phone screen too). Life is too short and we'll likely never agree so what is the use? I'm sure we all have better things to do with our spare time.

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you about Orcas (and other non-threatened species), hard to justify keeping them in captivity beyond the obvious crowd appeal. There are no doubt many cases where keeping particular animals in captivity is not justifiable from a conservation viewpoint. In addition there are many cases where pretty much everyone will agree that the animals in question are being held captive in conditions that are unacceptable.

I'm not in any way challenging or questioning your decision to live a vegan lifestyle. That's your choice and it's by no means any easy one. It's not important whether we agree with each other or not. I do however find your proposal for eradicating domesticated animals to be a somewhat disturbing scenario. I've not come across that before and have no idea how widespread that view is among vegans. Is it a commonly held view?
 
Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you about Orcas (and other non-threatened species), hard to justify keeping them in captivity beyond the obvious crowd appeal. There are no doubt many cases where keeping particular animals in captivity is not justifiable from a conservation viewpoint. In addition there are many cases where pretty much everyone will agree that the animals in question are being held captive in conditions that are unacceptable.

I'm not in any way challenging or questioning your decision to live a vegan lifestyle. That's your choice and it's by no means any easy one. It's not important whether we agree with each other or not. I do however find your proposal for eradicating domesticated animals to be a somewhat disturbing scenario. I've not come across that before and have no idea how widespread that view is among vegans. Is it a commonly held view?

Since you seem to be prepared to discuss this in a civilized way, I'm happy to reply to you. Just for further clarification, i didn't even start this thread, my comment from the other thread was used to start this thread by a mod without me asking for it to happen (not that I mind, just want to make sure it's clear that I didn't start this).

You're correct, it's tough but it's getting much easier these days, especially living in London as I do. I can't say whether this is a commonly held viewpoint as I have never discussed it with vegans. Let me ask you though, does it not seem like a very strange point of view that my viewpoint is disturbed? My ideal is for all farm animals to live out their lives in a comfortable and natural environment with them eventually going extinct. This would mean that many future generations of animals would never be born into the meat/dairy/egg industry. Of course I hope for a world where everybody is vegan and therefore these animals are not needed and their lack of existance would be of no consequence. The alternative and current situation (which you may or may not agree with) is that animals are kept in less than satisfactory conditions for many years less than their natural lives until they are killed under horrible circumstances (if you are under any illusions as to how nicely the animals are killed, the undercover CCTV footage I have seen would prove otherwise), dairy cows are routinely raped as I see it (artifically inseminated without their concent is rape imo) only for their babies to be taken away and killed whilst they are hooked up to a machine and pumped for milk until they are no longer profitable at which time they are killed and male baby chickens are ground up alive/electrocuted in the egg industry (sorry this was an incredibly long sentence!).

I cannot get my head around how my version is the disturbed viewpoint. I'm not trying to cause offence or insult you so I hope you don't take my comments in that way, I'm just trying to present the facts.
 
Evidence would be useful.
 
Since you seem to be prepared to discuss this in a civilized way, I'm happy to reply to you. Just for further clarification, i didn't even start this thread, my comment from the other thread was used to start this thread by a mod without me asking for it to happen (not that I mind, just want to make sure it's clear that I didn't start this).

You're correct, it's tough but it's getting much easier these days, especially living in London as I do. I can't say whether this is a commonly held viewpoint as I have never discussed it with vegans. Let me ask you though, does it not seem like a very strange point of view that my viewpoint is disturbed? My ideal is for all farm animals to live out their lives in a comfortable and natural environment with them eventually going extinct. This would mean that many future generations of animals would never be born into the meat/dairy/egg industry. Of course I hope for a world where everybody is vegan and therefore these animals are not needed and their lack of existance would be of no consequence. The alternative and current situation (which you may or may not agree with) is that animals are kept in less than satisfactory conditions for many years less than their natural lives until they are killed under horrible circumstances (if you are under any illusions as to how nicely the animals are killed, the undercover CCTV footage I have seen would prove otherwise), dairy cows are routinely raped as I see it (artifically inseminated without their concent is rape imo) only for their babies to be taken away and killed whilst they are hooked up to a machine and pumped for milk until they are no longer profitable at which time they are killed and male baby chickens are ground up alive/electrocuted in the egg industry (sorry this was an incredibly long sentence!).

I cannot get my head around how my version is the disturbed viewpoint. I'm not trying to cause offence or insult you so I hope you don't take my comments in that way, I'm just trying to present the facts.

Ethics to one side for a moment: First of all, I think that wholesale neutering of the many millions of domestic animals would in itself be a truly colossal undertaking just from a practical viewpoint. Secondly, nobody would pay for it. Thirdly, where do these animals get their food from while they proceed on their way to a natural demise, as they could basically be competing with a few billion vegan humans who might not be feeling especially charitable. Fourthly, in the meantime how likely is it that the wider human population would accept such a radical change in diet and lifestyle? In my view, pretty unlikely. Some pretty difficult hurdles to overcome I fear.

FWIW, I have lived in the countryside my whole life and am aware of some of the darker side of meat/dairy/egg production. In my experience things are not typically as bad as the examples you've given, though sadly there are cases that are truly horrid. As to your point about cows being raped! We will have to agree to differ on that one. I'm certainly not sure that forcibly neutering all the cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens etc. is in any way preferable. I should also add that I did not say your point of view was disturbed, I said that I found it disturbing.

In the end, it all comes down to the need to provide food for n billion humans, whether it involves animals or not. The processes utilised may or may not be ethical depending on our particular viewpoints, but demand is met by supply and to be honest I don't know how that basic linkage will ever be broken.

And as for civilised discussion, for me that's what forums are for.
 
Removed due to tagging the wrong person!
 
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@GeeJay57

I understand that this isn't likely to happen in my lifetime, I'm thinking more long term, maybe 100s years from now. The way I see it is that gradually over time, more and more rights are given to people (and hopefully in future animals too). Black people were treated as animals, women were seen as lesser citizens than men, homosexuals were seen as inferior. All now have equal rights in our society, so to me it seems a logical course that at some point animals will gain more rights.

The thing is, you mention these obstacles and it seems like you expect me to have an answer for it. As you say this would be a collosal undertaking and is not something I've put a great deal of time into planning. I'm sure you would like to see an end to drug use or religious extremism (two random examples plucked off the top of my head), but this doesn't mean you personally need to come up with a detailed plan on how to solve these issues immediately on an internet forum so it shouldn't be expected that I'd have any answers.

I misunderstood your use of the word 'disturbed' so I apologise for that.

Your point about feeding the human population comes up often when having this debate, but what yourself and others seem to overlook is the fact that all these farm animals are already being fed. I don't understand your point about the food the animals need until they die a natural death. If we can feed them in their billions now, how would we not be able to feed them in ever diminishing numbers? If we can feed these animals, why can't we just not feed them and eat the food produced for them instead? Introducing a step between us and the food (in this case the animal) is less economical than us just eating the food in the first place. Obviously you'll think this is biased so feel free to look into it further, but take a look at this link which highlights how animal agriculture affects different things: http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/facts-on-animal-farming-and-the-environment/

With regards to the animals themselves, regardless of what your experiance has shown you, it's standard practice in the egg industry to kill the male chicks as they are not needed. No matter how good a life an animal has, it still goes into a slaughter house distressed and has it's throat slit along side other cows that watch on. OK you may not call it rape but artificially inseminating a cow without its permission (I know they obviously can't give permission) is the same sort of thing and is routine, as is having their babies taken away and being hooked up to machines and getting diseases until they are killed. These are just facts and happen all the time, they aren't isolated incidents in 'bad' slaughterhouses.

If you think that neutering is not preferable, would you prefer to have a vasectomy, or be treated like a cow and have your children taken away from you until which time you were no longer productive at which point you were killed? Surely that's an easy choice. It all comes down to "Would I want this to happen to me?" and the answer is no, so I can't see how I should be involved in inflicting it on something else.

I hope none of my comments come across as angry or provocative, I can see that my language may come across as emotive as Viv said, but I'm not intending that, I'm just saying it how it is in my view.
 
@htid

I don't normally get into this kind of discussion. As you say, it's utterly pointless.

I did want to say though that you may have one or two good points. Unfortunately, Your use of emotive anthropomorphism totally undermines your case.

You might want to consider that, maybe.
 
@simon ess Well I guess it depends how you view the world. I see all animals on an equal level as humans so it's not anthropomorphism as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure you have a different opinion of homosexuals to somebody from Saudi Arabia but if you were discussing the subject with that person, you wouldn't refer to homosexuals using the same language the Saudi would, you'd use something you feel comfortable using. I assume you'd feel disgusted at using their language and so is the case with me and referring to animals 'just' as animals if you see what I mean. Does that make sense?
 
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what homosexuality has to with anything.

I'll leave it there, I think.
 
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what homosexuality has to with anything.

I'll leave it there, I think.

Just trying to explain why to me, animals and humans are the same, in the same way that to you (and me), homosexuals or any other people deemed to be lesser in other cultures are the same as anybody else. That's why I use language which you see as anthropomorphic. Sorry if my example wasn't clear enough and I respect your desire to leave it there.
 
Chris, just to be clear I didn't use the word 'disturbed' at all, though I accept your apology.

On the feeding domestic animals point; we do that now because there is a quid pro quo. We get to ride, stroke, display, milk or eat etc.. the animals being fed. If we were merely feeding the animals 'for free', I cannot imagine that is likely to happen. I just don't see the motivation, no one will make the effort. Mankind would simply concentrate on feeding itself and the animals would be left to their own devices. Where the two crossed, animals would get dispatched or excluded. Even if agree with the scenario you suggest (which I don't), I cannot envisage a world where mankind as a whole embraces anything just because it's good for us. We will in the main, continue to rape and plunder the planet and everything in it and on it until Mother Earth has had enough of us and sends us to meet the dinosaurs.

The notion of equality is fine principle, but never exists. There is always a hierarchy driven by the process of natural selection that you have highlighted as your preferred model.

Discrimination, again will always exist. It occurs in nature and even though mankind is supposed to be more cerebral in its approach to social behaviour, we are all guilty of putting labels on different social groups and individuals. I agree that in some societies, there is much less tolerance to difference than others. I'm so glad that we have become more accepting and tolerant of the gay/lesbian/bi community. I'm especially pleased that being gay is no longer illegal in our country.

I've enjoyed our discussion, but will now bow out of this one simply because it is covering too many areas for a photography forum. In closing perhaps this video might be of interest... Cheers!

View: http://youtu.be/7W33HRc1A6c
 
Just for further clarification, i didn't even start this thread, my comment from the other thread was used to start this thread by a mod without me asking for it to happen (not that I mind, just want to make sure it's clear that I didn't start this).
Just to clarify I split the thread so as not to ruin the photo sharing thread, that spawned the discussion.
Hence the mod edit at the top of the first post.
As you are a true Vegan, ( it appears) I admire the courage of your convictions, however I also find it slightly strange that you seem to be saying
( in a nut shell) that as animals are of no use to you whatsoever, they should be allowed to all die out.
And yet they were here first, its their planet, we came along much later.


Unfortunately, Your use of emotive anthropomorphism totally undermines your case.
Agreed, plus I'm not sure that the word rape applies to animals, either.

The offence as I understand it is bestiality, and as Ai is perfectly legal and a cost effective way of procreating a species, I see no offence being committed.
 
Just to clarify I split the thread so as not to ruin the photo sharing thread, that spawned the discussion.
Hence the mod edit at the top of the first post.
As you are a true Vegan, ( it appears) I admire the courage of your convictions, however I also find it slightly strange that you seem to be saying
( in a nut shell) that as animals are of no use to you whatsoever, they should be allowed to all die out.
And yet they were here first, its their planet, we came along much later.



Agreed, plus I'm not sure that the word rape applies to animals, either.

The offence as I understand it is bestiality, and as Ai is perfectly legal and a cost effective way of procreating a species, I see no offence being committed.

Farm animals were definitely not here before us, we bred them. I don't want all animals to die out and I've not said that, just farm animals. The only reason for this is that the alternative as I keep saying is many more generations of cruelty and death. As has been said, freeing them all into the wild isn't viable so the alternative is what I've suggested. My method is a more ethical and vegan way of looking at things than the current model.

The definition of rape:
rape1
[reyp]

noun
1.
unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexualpenetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of anotherperson, with or without force, by a sex organ, otherbody part, or foreign object, without the consent ofthe victim.

Of course you wouldn't see a problem with it as I assume you're a meat eater and milk drinker. Just because the current model is legal and cost effective doesn't mean it's ethical. I shall say it again, if you wouldn't want it to happen to you, why should you have the right to force it onto someone/something else?
 
of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person,

Agreed, plus I'm not sure that the word rape applies to animals, either.

I assume you're a meat eater and milk drinker.
Milk not so much, but yes my diet consists of all the things we evolved to, & and our denture lay out is designed to eat,

Farm animals were definitely not here before us, we bred them.
From wild stock...

I shall say it again, if you wouldn't want it to happen to you, why should you have the right to force it onto someone/something else?
And I'll say again as a biologist, I do not subscribe to "Anthropomorphism"
 
Milk not so much, but yes my diet consists of all the things we evolved to, & and our denture lay out is designed to eat,


From wild stock...


And I'll say again as a biologist, I do not subscribe to "Anthropomorphism"

As a biologist (which my girlfriend also is), ID expect that you'd be exactly the type of person who would realise that we are no different to animals really. Our brains may be, yes, but that's about it. We are made of the same cells and genes as (nearly) any animal so why you should think we're so special, I don't really understand.

On the definition, so what, it's rape as I see it, if you don't, that's your choice.

They may have come from wild stock, and the wild relatives of these animals would still remain if things were as I've suggested.

Just because we evolved to eat something doesn't mean we should. If we have the brain to show compassion and the ability to live healthy lives without meat, the only reason to have it is "i want what I want and I'm going to have it because I'm a human and I have the right to do whatever I want (within the law)". That's a very selfish viewpoint as I see it.
 
also could you please explain how your biology shows you've evolved to eat meat when you have no canines for ripping open bodies and in general you can't eat raw meat?
 
ID expect that you'd be exactly the type of person who would realise that we are no different to animals really
We are classified as animals, Higher Apes / Mammals in fact, I'm not disputing that.
Our brains may be, yes, but that's about it
Plus opposable thumbs and speech sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom.

On the definition, so what, it's rape as I see it, if you don't, that's your choice.
In law it isn't. Its a procedure to increase the population, cheaply and effectively.
Is IV or Ai in humans rape? no its a means to an end.
Should we also ban that?

They may have come from wild stock, and the wild relatives of these animals would still remain if things were as I've suggested.
The wild descendants of cattle still exist, in the buffalo etc, sheep were domesticated around 13,000 years ago, and they evolved from there, possibly from Mouflon. a goat like creature.

also could you please explain how your biology shows you've evolved to eat meat when you have no canines for ripping open bodies and in general you can't eat raw meat?
The canines are there all be it now somewhat, retracted, we learned to use hunting tools long before we "invented" fire.
Fire was "discovered some 125,000 years ago
Hunting tips for spears and arrows have been dated at around 500,000 years ago,
That's conclusive proof that we were eating animals long before we discovered fire.

As we have got "soft" by cooking meat, ( and veg) our digestive tract has also evolved to digest cooked meat, rather than raw meat.

Designed? By who/what?
God? or maybe lets just call it evolution shall we?

Are you a schooled/professional Biologist, or have just the view of a 'biologist?'
I have a degree in animal sciences, specialising in behaviour.
 
A very interesting discussion and, I for one, am happy that it hasn't resulted in a personal slanging match that so often happens on forums. You've all put across some very valid points.

One thing that I wonder, as it has been mentioned a couple of times, is that documentary Blackfish, about Seaworld's practises. Yes, it is very sad, but since watching it I've wondered what would have happened if somebody had first put out a film about how wonderful Seaworld is and the great conservation work they do?

In this day and age, it'd likely be called propaganda anyway.

Just a thought that I don't necessarily believe everything I watch/read.
 
Seaworld have accused them of propaganda mostly - the thing is the woman, Gabriela thingy who directed Blackfish, didnt set out to make an animal rights piece, but just tell a story but its what it turned into. The film was also going to focus on Morgan the orca as well (the one at the tenerife zoo) but as things progressed, even though they'd filmed stuff for it they decided there was too much to tell to just kept it to Tilikum.

Seaworld put out information all the time about how wonderful they are and educational and conservation value - they've already at their 'side' (altho they are hardly the only ones at fault in the world of marine life, Lolita in Miami has it far worse than the ones in the main seaworld parks, shes been alone in a tiny tank for decades) for past however many decades, they've had their propaganda..... (not sure if you noticed above but i'm not in the SHUT SEAWORLD DOWN camp as they DO do great work for manatee rescue and rehabilitation and i'm sure other good things which seems to get forgotten. which doesnt excuse the orca stuff, but is still of value)

If you have some spare time & are interested (and it's 2 hours so, def some spare time) you could watch this debate (link below) between orca experts (Naomi Rose has attended the Whalefest event i mentioned) and representatives from Seaworld - it's interesting, i think Seaworld make themselves look bad and pretty deluded. They could be handling these things so much better, or even just differently.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkVj_lZkp0c


I don't know if you read recently but Seaworld have had undercover people in animal rights groups and at the last Whalefest they even flew people over and paid for them to attend the event so they could protest during a big talk and disrupt things.

There has been no captive whales or dolphins in the UK since 1993 - they are not banned - just after studies were done on the subject, thats just what people decided to do - an interesting comparison (although a couple of Uk based companies do have some financial connections to parks abroad with captive cetaceans).
 
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On the definition, so what, it's rape as I see it, if you don't, that's your choice.
.

How you choose to see it is irrelevant.
In the eyes of the law (which you have to abide by the same as everyone else whether you like it or not), bestiality (repulsive as it may be) is not classified as the rape of an animal. In fact, far from it.
 
The missus wants to go to Chester Zoo with the grand kids, but I just do not like Zoos. I am just wondering how I can get out of going with them. I just do not like the experience..
 
The missus wants to go to Chester Zoo with the grand kids,
Chester is supposed to be one of the better ones, ( although I've not been) go, you may like it, if not I'm sure there is a Cafe on site that you can wile away the hours in,
Take a lap to and "play" on TP :D
 
Drop them off in the car park and then go do something else while they wander around the zoo. Done that myself, it's not hard. If you're looking for somewhere to go in the area while they are occupied, there's the RSPB reserve at Burton Mere or you could pop up to Parkgate and see what's about. The latter especially good if there's a high tide, decent chance of Short-Eared Owls, Egrets, Peregrine Falcon.... Alternatively, park up in Chester and have a walk around the wall with your camera.
 
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