Zoo's good or bad?

htid

htid

Suspended / Banned
Messages
2,497
Name
Chris
Edit My Images
Yes
Mod edit,
this post and some of the following thread was split from HERE
To allow a fuller discusion

You should watch Blackfish and The Cove. I would never visit such a disgusting place and look forward to the day that all sealife centres and the like are closed down.

The parrot I also don't agree with as I don't condone zoos, but hey, that's my opinion. The parrot is nice and vibrant though so that's good.
 
htid said:
You should watch Blackfish and The Cove. I would never visit such a disgusting place and look forward to the day that all sealife centres and the like are closed down.

The parrot I also don't agree with as I don't condone zoos, but hey, that's my opinion. The parrot is nice and vibrant though so that's good.
Click to expand...

@htid Just remember whilst you're busy not condoning zoos wholesale, they have a large role in conservation, with some species now existing exclusively in zoos.
To dismiss them all out of hand is a very blinkered view.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
viv1969 said:
I think you've got 2 nice captures there, especially the bird, which sits well centrally.
@htid Just remember whilst you're busy not condoning zoos wholesale, they have a large role in conservation, with some species now existing exclusively in zoos.
To dismiss them all out of hand is a very blinkered view.
Click to expand...

@viv1969 As this isn't a forum to discuss this type of thing, I won't go into it, but rest assured I don't agree with conservation of this type at all. The animals are only endangered because of us. If they go extinct, so be in. Who are we to decide which animals should live in captivity and or die in the wild? Anyway as I said I feel very passionately about this and animal rights in general so I won't go any further as I could discuss this with you for a long long time and we'd probably never agree. I just wanted to point out to the OP that it is cruel and he should have mixed views about keeping orcas in captivity.
 
@htid why did you come into this thread if you didn't want discussion or did you just want to express your views and be done. In that respect I would suggest you stay away from this section Photos: ZOO
This is not to say that I agree or disagree with your sentiments at all.
 
@plamen_gb - it's worth reading up about the role Lora Parqe have in the Free Morgan story - As you'll see I am also against them being in captivity, but don't want to get shouty shouty, just directing you to read more about Morgans story. They have connections with SeaWorld.

It is a good capture of an orca, regardless.

@viv1969 - some zoos are better than others, but the part they play in conservation is very over stated. As i've just above, I don't want to get shouty shouty but it's worth doing some reading - Born Free as some info on it here http://www.bornfree.org.uk/campaigns/zoo-check/uk-zoos/zoo-conservation/ - Orca's aren't endangered and them being in captivity hasnt really achieved much in the way of conservation. Will Travers who heads up Born Free did a talk a few years ago that I attended where he mentioned that research done (I think by them, but i'm not sure, i'd have to have a dig to find it) asked people how much of zoos profits were thought to be used for conservation - most people suggested 25%, when the real figure is actually only about 5% and thats only for some of the very best zoos. He got very passionate about a new elephant enclosure that had been at built costing $3million - for elephants that were not of breeding age or of any conservation significance- the money was spent to bring people to the park and make a profit - and that $3million spent on the type of work Born Free do would be invaluable - that is misdirection of valuable money.

like I say, i dont want to get shouty shouty and like @htid said, this isnt the place for it - but many zoos are trading off what we'd like to think, rather than what actually happens.
 
@Tintin124 it was on the front page, I didn't know what section it was in. It grabbed my attention as it's something I feel strongly about and the OP said he had mixed feelings. I wanted to tell him about those two films so that he might (if he chooses) educate himself on the matter. I won't comment here further though.
 
For conservation to work people need to be informed. That starts at a young age, and I know of no better way than young people experiencing the animals for themselves.That happens at zoos, wildlife reserves and sanctuaries. Some of you may think it's cruel (and I agree, keeping Orca's captive is wrong) but many other species would be much closer to extinction without them.

Places like BWC are an inspiration to young children, being able to actually view the wildlife for real, and not via a TV.
 
As already said, Orca's aren't endangered, so no real issue's here, but it maybe the only place that people get to see one, in this "sterile world" of ours.

htid said:
If they go extinct, so be in.
Click to expand...
Wow! that's some statement! You would rather a species die out than live, and without the possibility of in future years of it being re-introduced, due to captive breeding programmes.
Such as the wolves and Lynx that *cough* may or may not have been reintroduced into some of the wilder area's of the UK.

Its saddens me that when Children have been asked where milk comes from the answer has been Sainsbury's ( other retailers are available) in the past.
The same thinking applies to the Concrete cows here in MK, as the city grew the developers wanted to make sure that the kids grew up knowing what a cow was or at least looked like.
Do you really want kids of the future to only see statues of lions tigers etc and not the real thing because all the live ones have died out ?
That's a cock eyed view of animal rights / conservation.
 
Last edited:
Cobra said:
That's a cock eyed view of animal rights / conservation.
Click to expand...

Armchair activism (of any kind) tends to be that way. :(
 
viv1969 said:
Armchair activism (of any kind) tends to be that way. :(
Click to expand...
Absolutely!

But to be fair to the poster. who knows, he may well be out in the wilds of Africa, running down ivory poachers,
saving the The Gir Forest in India to protect the demising lion population,
and actively campaigning against green belt development in the UK to protect the Dormouse, Great Crested newt, et al
 
If I had the resources to do that kind of thing, I would. I do go on protest marches amongst other things but sadly I can't do everything.

I don't want to offend anybody because that doesn't help anything, but since you've asked me questions, I'll reply. The trouble with your viewpoint is that it's very human centric. Contrary to what we may believe, we are not the centre of the universe and the only real reason it seems that we want to conserve things is for the future benefit of humans (our children). I couldn't care in the slightest if future generations never see these wild animals as long as the animals have died out due to natural means and not because of humans. I want animals to survive or die out based on the rules of natural selection and without human interference. It all comes back to "would I want this to happen to me?". Would I want to be imprisoned in a zoo for the rest of my life for the future of our species? No. Does a captive lynx care that it is helping towards the future survival of the species? I care about the individual not the species. They each have feelings and emotions and it should not be for us to decide which members will be imprisoned for the survival of the species as a whole.

FWIW I agree with the milk thing but then again I would rather cows die out (naturally, as in no more are bred) and nobody has milk as I'm vegan. Animals should not be our slaves.
 
@Cobra whilst in a 'discussion' about cativity (I was saying that 'shut down seaworld' was simplistic and did not consider what happens to all the animals besides marine mammals if that happened) on a news site someone actually said that the animals would rather themselves be euthanasised than continue to live there - which I thought was a bonkers statement!!

It's tough to know if children would be as engaged with animals without zoos. I don't choose to go to them anymore but have had the opportunity to do so (including sea world). I think people like Born Free want to be able to help animals in the wild so that captive breeding isn't the only solution. I admit I only know scant details of all they do, but do do rescue and rehabilitation.

And if anyone is interested in orca then I recommend 'swimming with orca' by Dr Ingrid vissir - if I had a brain, could swim and lived in NZ, I would basically be her (failing in many levels...). She is also very involved in Morgan's story, who is an orca at this zoo in Tenerifs. And also Whale fest which is an event held in Brighton, there isn't one this year but prob next year - been to 3 so far, loved them.

Oh and if anyone lived anywhere near Scotland - orca watch Is happening the last week of May in Wick - I'm too far away so it's cost prohibitive to get there but some more local folks might be involved.

Sorry to hijack this thread! But I hope I am sounding rational and not attacking. I have been a whale 'fan' since I was about 6 (started a 'save the whale' club at school) around the time the 3 gray whales were trapped in Alaska (the film Big Miriacle is about it) and it made news around the world.

I'll shut up now
 
Perhaps we should start a new thread in the Talk Nature section rather then hijack thus thread ?
I have shared my views in other threads regarding captive animals
 
Gremlin said:
Perhaps we should start a new thread in the Talk Nature section rather then hijack thus thread ?
I have shared my views in other threads regarding captive animals
Click to expand...

Think you're probably right as this could go on forever.
 
htid said:
it should not be for us to decide which members will be imprisoned for the survival of the species as a whole.
Click to expand...
Animals born in captivity know no different, "That" is their world
htid said:
if future generations never see these wild animals as long as the animals have died out due to natural means and not because of humans.
Click to expand...
But that is the problem, so called progress IS putting the animals in danger of extinction. it is US that is casing it, and its our duty to do something about it.
htid said:
They each have feelings and emotions
Click to expand...
As a biologist, I don't subscribe to Anthropomorphism.

dan_yell said:
on a news site someone actually said that the animals would rather themselves be euthanasised than continue to live there - which I thought was a bonkers statement!!
Click to expand...
Typical "anti" comment :rolleyes:

Gremlin said:
Perhaps we should start a new thread in the Talk Nature section rather then hijack thus thread ?
Click to expand...
Give me awhile and I'll shift some of this stuff about (y)
 
OK its done, crack on folks :thumbs:
 
Cobra said:
Animals born in captivity know no different, "That" is their world
Click to expand...

Not sure about that, instinct comes into play here and affects many animals in different way, e.g. the herd instinct ... how does that affect an animal kept in isolation, or the instinct to migrate or move in family groups ... how do the bars/fences affect that?
 
htid said:
FWIW I agree with the milk thing but then again I would rather cows die out (naturally, as in no more are bred) and nobody has milk as I'm vegan. Animals should not be our slaves.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes: Would you set them free?
I guarantee they wouldn't die out.
 
gramps said:
how does that affect an animal kept in isolation,
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that zoo's do keep herd animals in singles, I've never come across it TBH

gramps said:
or the instinct to migrate or move in family groups ...
Click to expand...
Land animals migrate to follow food, be that the vegetarians, looking for fresh grass / leaves or the predators that eat them.
They also migrate to escape environmental factors such as floods / fire etc.
As there are no adverse conditions in zoos ( although I know at one person will disagree ;) ) such as climate change or food shortages, they have no need to migrate.

If they wanted to, I'm sure that a few bars and fences wouldn't stop a dozen buffalo, or a herd of deer.
Take the predators, lions sleep about 22-23 hours a day, and eat maybe 3 - 4 times a week.
They really are at the top of the food chain, expending just enough energy to to catch dinner, fill their bellies, stash a little and sleep,
If food miraculously appears in front of them, what need do they have to go chasing around the country side?
All that does is waste energy.
 
viv1969 said:
@htid Just remember whilst you're busy not condoning zoos wholesale, they have a large role in conservation, with some species now existing exclusively in zoos.
To dismiss them all out of hand is a very blinkered view.
Click to expand...
I agree with Cobra, there are some species that will benefit the environment and help to balance eco systems which are only going to improve by breeding programmes which some zoos and reserves function to provide.
I think we have to be careful not to dismiss all zoos and such establishments wholesale as they do a very valuable job both in conservation & research.
I don't agree with keeping animals purely for audience gratification but I do think that there is a lot of truly fantastic work going on behind the scenes that we should all support.
This is my own personal opinion and I can't claim to be an expert on this, just what I believe to be true from what I've rad and seen for myself over the years.

If man insists on destroying habitats at the rate we are, it's a blessing that wildlife has some chance of survival due to the kind of conservation work that takes place, be it captive or free.
 
I'm conflicted over zoos; I can't deny I enjoy the experience but I don't want to contribute to animals leading less than happy lives. There's definitely species that make worse candidates. Orcas fall in to that category; their combinations of size and intelligence means we just can't give them the life they deserve in a pool. But at the other extreme, captive stick insects must surely be content.
 
Cobra said:
I'm not sure that zoo's do keep herd animals in singles, I've never come across it TBH
Click to expand...

Elephants are 'herd' animals and I have experienced many examples of singles or doubles.

Cobra said:
Land animals migrate to follow food, be that the vegetarians, looking for fresh grass / leaves or the predators that eat them.
They also migrate to escape environmental factors such as floods / fire etc.
As there are no adverse conditions in zoos ( although I know at one person will disagree ;) ) such as climate change or food shortages, they have no need to migrate.

If they wanted to, I'm sure that a few bars and fences wouldn't stop a dozen buffalo, or a herd of deer.
Take the predators, lions sleep about 22-23 hours a day, and eat maybe 3 - 4 times a week.
They really are at the top of the food chain, expending just enough energy to to catch dinner, fill their bellies, stash a little and sleep,
If food miraculously appears in front of them, what need do they have to go chasing around the country side?
All that does is waste energy.
Click to expand...

'Migrate' in it's widest term ... many, many animals 'migrate' to a greater or lesser degree ... from country to country, area to area, forest to forest etc.
Basically it is instinctive for them to do this and is not based on food needs alone, confinement is as unnatural to many/most animals as it would be to you or me :)
 
Some zoos are good, some zoos are bad. Some good zoos do bad things, some bad zoos probably do something good from time to time. Many well meaning people do bad things, but not in the view of everyone. The world aint perfect.
Some good points above, but bad views alongside them. In my humble uneducated opinion of course.
 
I live just over a mile away from the West Midlands Safari Park.

I've never been there.... yet.

As I get older, and now live with a vegetarian, I'm tending to think more about animals than I did when I was younger.

I may go one day, purely for the photographic opportunities if I'm honest.



I don't go along with the thought that animals should be left to die out, that makes a mockery of conservation as a whole.

I also don't believe animals are slaves, by that token no vegan should own a dog, and I know plenty who do.


And yes, I eat meat, and have no problem with where meat comes from (my father was a farmer)

Just my two pennyworth.


Terry.
 
gramps said:
Elephants are 'herd' animals and I have experienced many examples of singles or doubles.
Click to expand...
Well that's a real pity, and granted some zoo's wild life parks are better than others, my favourite, ZSL, has a herd of Elephants, and following natural behaviour the Matriarch is well and truly in charge,
of that herd, there is usually 1 calf born each year, if they weren't "happy", they wouldn't breed

gramps said:
Basically it is instinctive for them to do this and is not based on food needs alone,
Click to expand...
That's the only reason its not like you or I nipping down the pub or going for a Sunday afternoon stroll, they need to eat & drink or die.

Obviously some solitary species move around in the hope of finding a mate, but again, if that's provided why bother go look?
 
I've never been a big fan of zoos, but I am now a member at Chester Zoo and think that they do play a part in conservation, even if it's via educating the kids that go there. It would be nice to think that if we just stopped meddling, the animal kingdom would recover and things would be great. Unfortunately humans have been busy screwing up the global habitat for millennia, it will be screwed up for a long time to come yet even after we are long gone.
 
GeeJay57 said:
I've never been a big fan of zoos, but I am now a member at Chester Zoo and think that they do play a part in conservation, even if it's via educating the kids that go there. It would be nice to think that if we just stopped meddling, the animal kingdom would recover and things would be great. Unfortunately humans have been busy screwing up the global habitat for millennia, it will be screwed up for a long time to come yet even after we are long gone.
Click to expand...

Chester has an excellent record of captive bred animals being successfully released into wild populations; animals which have been accepted and gone on to breed naturally themselves...widening local gene pools.
 
Zoos have enabled me to get up close with many creatures I would never see in their natural habitat, so yes I do enjoy them.
I have been to a few that I can only call appalling in the way the animals are kept in cages far too small and with little enrichment,]just pacing their
prisons, looking unhappy, those I won't visit again.
I also deplore the churning out of young to keep the public happy because that's what brings people in, much as I love seeing cubs etc. I do appreciate
that there is no point in breeding if there is no where for them to go and I do admire Whipsnade and the British Wildlife centre for their stance on it.
A couple of years ago there was uproar when a young giraffe was killed in a zoo and fed to the lions, as they could not keep him, why ? It's nature
I also hate it when so called conservation places breed rare colours ie white lions or tigers, as money spinners, they are genetic mutations and inbred
and have problems.
Also the recent fad of taking the young away from the parents and hand rearing them, just so they are tamer, or if the mother rejects them, I saw the results of that
one with too tiger cubs both of which had genetic problems hence the parental rejection, but they had to be reared to go back into the breeding pool, one died
not heard what happened to the other.
I'm not sure we can use the Jurrassic Park films as an example of animals going feral, that is fiction, but if I can find it I will link some research done on domestic pigs
which showed that pigs would revert if humans weren't around not sure cattle would though due to the need to be milked, but many dogs and cats would.
So like in everything in life there are good and bad zoos, some just want to make money, others really do care about the future survival of the species
 
Gremlin said:
I also hate it when so called conservation places breed rare colours ie white lions or tigers, as money spinners,
Click to expand...
You and me both :(

Gremlin said:
but they had to be reared to go back into the breeding pool,
Click to expand...
And carrying the defective gene with it, I also disagree with keeping animals alive by human intervention, that would have naturally died in the wild,
especially when they are being used as breeders, all that is doing is weakening the gene pool.
 
Cobra said:
You and me both :(


And carrying the defective gene with it, I also disagree with keeping animals alive by human intervention, that would have naturally died in the wild,
especially when they are being used as breeders, all that is doing is weakening the gene pool.
Click to expand...

Will you please stop agreeing with me :mad:

I made myself very unpopular by pointing that out at a keeper talk for the cubs where she tried to convince me it was the hand rearing
that caused the problems :rolleyes:
 
It's an interesting discussion, I can understand all sides too. Keeping Ocras like they do in Seaworld isn't right. The way zoo are run needs to change, huge open areas that represent their environment are needed so they can live like they would in the wild and not as an attraction. There are animal parks out there that do great things but there are some that don't do good things. The only falconry centre I ever visit is animal hospital/rehibalitation first and foremost, the public display helps fund this work. Sadly humans have messed up environments, destroyed habitats, introduced non native species to the detriment of many species.
 
Too many points for me to reply to individually but I can see the other side too. I'm sure there are good people in some zoos that want to fund conservation but the fact is that a very very little % of the money goes towards that (I don't have figures to back that up to hand and I doubt that's a blanket rule).

The trouble is and always seems to be in these debates that the conservationists care about the future of the species and animal rights activists such as myself care about the individual lives of each animal. Ok an animal born in captivity doesn't know any different but would you want to live in captivity? If not, who are we to decide what animals should and should not.

The argument I can't stand is "but zoos allow us and our children to see animals we'd never otherwise see". Tough luck, nobody has any birthright to see these animals. If you can't afford to go and see them where they are wild, that's your problem. I know you'll say " but showing children is how they'll learn about the situation". How many people who have been to zoos are now interested in conservation/saving animals? I'm sure the figure is VERY low. Most do it because they see the world in a human centric way, whereas I don't. Every individual on the planet from an ant to a human has the same right to a free, uninterrupted (by humans) life. We are not as special as people seem to think.

@GreenNinja67 I'm sure any vegans you'll find with dogs have rescue dogs that would possibly have been killed otherwise. Thats not slavery.

@viv1969 sorry I don't get your point about the cows. I'd keep them in rescue centres to live the rest of their lives freely without the ability to breed until the species died out.
 
htid said:
@GreenNinja67 I'm sure any vegans you'll find with dogs have rescue dogs that would possibly have been killed otherwise. Thats not slavery.
Click to expand...

Not correct, there are vegans who breed and show dogs, what annoys me about those is when they impose thier dietary choice on the dogs who are natural carnivores.
How do you feel about assistance dogs ?
 
I live on both sides of the coin.... in other words on the fence :D

Here is the conflict I have:

See what Chris @htid is right in my opinion who are we to decide which species live or die. This is evolution lots and lots of species have died over millions of years its completely natural. Now over recent years (since humans arrived) animals have gone extinct due to human intervention but does that mean its wrong? Do they have a place on this planet anymore and is it right just to keep them in a zoo for curiosity sake?

On the other hand... where humans have decided to make safe havens for these creatures then I am all for the conversation and if necessary captive breeding in the vein hope they can be re-released and survive and breed on their own unfortunately this is starting to happen but it needs to be a global thing otherwise it just won't work.

@htid I shall give the video you have suggested a watch but as everything I'm highly skeptic to these things as the film makers almost always have an agenda and are commonly heavily on one side or the other.
 
@Gremlin as this thread is about zoos rather than veganism I'd rather not get into it too much as otherwise it'll end up being too off topic. But to reply to you briefly, any vegan that breeds dogs is not doing a very good job of being a vegan (although it depends if they are an ethical vegan like me or a health vegan who doesn't care about the animals as much). As for dogs being carnivores, in evolutionary terms maybe so, but how many people feed their dogs 100% meat diet with no starch (rice etc) or vegetables? Dogs can thrive on a vegan diet, I've seen them with my own eyes. As to whether it's ethical or not is down to each person but I don't agree with eating animals and I'd be skeptical about giving a dog a vegan diet hence I don't have a dog. Assistance dogs...well again, animals are not our slaves so from a purely ethical POV I don't agree, but it's not that black and white. Assuming they have a good life then I can accept them.

@Tintin124 you're correct, nobody will produce a film at great expense unless they have an agenda. The only thing I can say is that the agenda of the film is to highlight the plight of whales and hopefully get them free. The aim of SeaWorld etc. is to make profit so to me it's clear who has the better agenda.
 
viv1969 said:
Chester has an excellent record of captive bred animals being successfully released into wild populations; animals which have been accepted and gone on to breed naturally themselves...widening local gene pools.
Click to expand...

I was going to make this very same point about Yorkshire Wildlife Park, they too have a very good breeding/release program too, as well as rescuing animals from some very nasty captive conditions, would people have rather euthanased these animals, or should they be left to live out the rest of their lives in a purpose built enclosure, and in the process drawing in the crowds to help fund more good conservation/breeding/release programs
 
htid said:
@viv1969 sorry I don't get your point about the cows. I'd keep them in rescue centres to live the rest of their lives freely without the ability to breed until the species died out.
Click to expand...

You're going to keep these animals (and I'm assuming you're talking ALL farmed species here) in an environment which limits their ability to roam, segregate male from female so that they cannot breed, feed them, take care of their health and wellbeing until such time as they die?
That's not a "rescue centre". That, right there is a zoo you're running.
The only difference is that instead of ANY form of conservation, or concern for animal welfare, your only aim is to eradicate the species.
It's clear you have no thought for animal welfare at all, and I certainly wouldn't use the term "ethical" to describe anything you suggested so far.
You also brushed very blythely over @Gremlin question regarding assistance animals (and they're far from being all dogs). Would you suggest that ALL assistance animals are living miserable lives in abject slavery? (there's that laughable word again).
You don't condone animal "slavery" at all, (so I hope you don't keep pets of any kind), but you're more than happy to sanction the genocide (since you seem to enjoy the use of such emotive language) of dozens of animal species simply because they do not fit your menu.
Armchair activism....If nothing else it's rather ironically amusing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top