Zero hours, NMW, living wage, apprenticeship pay

A

andya700

Suspended / Banned
Messages
6,071
Name
Andy
Edit My Images
No
These are all the things which are currently winding me up.
If I pass my course, and I am able to get a job working in a gym/fitness club, then it seems the only jobs available at the moment are zero hours and apprenticeships paying around £3.50 per hour.
The government keeps banging on about a "living wage" of around £7.20 per hour, but we never hear about the millions of people earning less than £100 per week being employed as "apprentices" (this could be any job not just trades) or those who work zero hours (the ones who are obviously so contented with the flexibility of zero hours).
I do a lengthy jobsearch every day, and it is amazing how many jobs fall into these categories.
The race to the bottom has well and truly started.
 
Doc said:
Personally I don't know how people can budget for tomorrows breakfast on zero hours, let alone mortgage/car etc!!!
Click to expand...

I think it is totally impossible.
The worst thing about zero hours is that you can turn up for work (having paid the transport costs), and then simply be told that you are not required that day, so you go home out of pocket having paid travel costs, but earned nothing.
Of course, the employer is allowed to be flexible, but what would happen if the employee said they had found two days work (with another employer) on Wedensday and Friday, and would be able to come in on Tuesday and Thursday only?
We all know what would happen to the employee in that case.
There are so many employers jumping on the apprenticeship bandwagon, using it as an excuse to pay half the NMW to employees. Thirty hours a week on apprenticeship pay costs the employer just over £100, but the same employee on NMW would cost the employer around £195.
 
andy700 said:
These are all the things which are currently winding me up.
If I pass my course, and I am able to get a job working in a gym/fitness club, then it seems the only jobs available at the moment are zero hours and apprenticeships paying around £3.50 per hour.
The government keeps banging on about a "living wage" of around £7.20 per hour, but we never hear about the millions of people earning less than £100 per week being employed as "apprentices" (this could be any job not just trades) or those who work zero hours (the ones who are obviously so contented with the flexibility of zero hours).
I do a lengthy jobsearch every day, and it is amazing how many jobs fall into these categories.
The race to the bottom has well and truly started.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately the career area you are looking to move into isn't really that well paid anyway.
Have you thought of holding your own fitness classes, hiring a community hall or school hall a few times a week
 
There are rules on apprenticeships and how long you can pay those low rates for. ASOS was done for doing that as it was decided the person was doing an actual proper job so they had to pay them NMW not the apprentice rate.
 
I think zero hours contracts are a disgrace. It's shocking and an abuse of the employee. I am fortunate enough to have a so called steady job and my wife also has a good job too. I am about to take voluntary redundancy as this isn't what i want to do but these types of contracts worry me. I am hopeful i'll be able to bypass them as i have been offered work when i have the correct license for my new career but i feel for those who have to suffer them.
 
Last edited:
I recently joined a company with unusual hours, which took me away from home for weeks at a time (which was an attraction to me). However, in week 2 I recieved a call to say I might not be needed the next week and it was then that the company informed me I was on zero hours. I left after week 4 because the contract I recieved was not clear about "pro rata" pay and other issues. Companies are taking more advantage of these blurred guidelines than is being reported.
 
nilagin said:
Unfortunately the career area you are looking to move into isn't really that well paid anyway.
Have you thought of holding your own fitness classes, hiring a community hall or school hall a few times a week
Click to expand...

There is a World of difference between "isn't really that well paid", and being paid at half the NMW - which is an absolute disgrace.
I am not sure what the legality of running your own fitness classes is before you qualify, with regard to insurance. If I pass this course and then take on level 3, that is a direct route to becoming a personal trainer.
 
nickEnackEnoo said:
I recently joined a company with unusual hours, which took me away from home for weeks at a time (which was an attraction to me). However, in week 2 I recieved a call to say I might not be needed the next week and it was then that the company informed me I was on zero hours. I left after week 4 because the contract I recieved was not clear about "pro rata" pay and other issues. Companies are taking more advantage of these blurred guidelines than is being reported.
Click to expand...


Bad luck Nick.
As soon as I heard about zero hours (which have just recently been made illegal in New Zealand) and the apprenticeship pay, I knew they were just loopholes to enable employers to cut costs - and to hell with the workers.
 
I think the thing with a lot of these type of roles is they cover career paths that are not realy renowned for good pay.
I would look at this career as a stepping stone to something better.
 
Andy don't take this the wrong way,but before you went on your course what research did you do on what sort of jobs you could get when you qualified?

I think zero hours contracts can be a good thing if set up correctly( eg the company contacts you at least on the day before to see if you are available to work.) and for the right people. AFAIK apprenticeships are legally defined.
 
The idea is to get as many people as possible on welfare, and then they got you by the neck. Just say something wrong and they cut off the payments. I really hate to say the worst case scenario appears to be unfolding in plain view.
 
  • Zero hours contracts may suit some but suspect some have to accept the contract as they have no other option, same with low hours contacts. What happens if Joe Bloggs is not available whenever the company want him at short notice, not available at short notice a few times and guess what happens- zero hours for Joe Bloggs. Another pet hate of mine is the number of new jobs qouoted when a super market opens - how many of those are zero or low hours contracts.
 
Zero hours contracts are ideal for students or those who only want a few hours per week.
There are loads of skilled jobs available with 40-45 hours per week, surely acquiring those skills would be more useful. For example, there is a shortage of truck drivers throughout the UK.
 
The kicker here is we all want our cake and eat it.

We want low food prices, low beer prices, buy stuff from the internet to get it cheaper. Want great deals on household goods, pay as little as possible for cars. Hate paying tax and NI. Import goods to avoid paying tax. Shop in places like primark for mega cheap clothes etc.

So how do all of these business' save money? As above ;) We can't expect to take take take as a society.
 
The Apprenticeship wage is supposed to take into account the off the job training that is required to gain the qualifications which will then ultimately pay you more than the NMW. The apprenticeship wage is also dictated whether it's your first year and your age.

Apprentices were always paid lower than an unqualified professional while training up before the Apprenticeship became officially recognised by formal qualifications.

However, I do admit that a lot of companies use apprenticeships as a way of gaining resource with minimal funding. Less likely with the more traditional Apprenticeship sectors like Construction and Engineering as the employer wants a qualified person as quickly as possible.
 
andy700 said:
There is a World of difference between "isn't really that well paid", and being paid at half the NMW - which is an absolute disgrace.
I am not sure what the legality of running your own fitness classes is before you qualify, with regard to insurance. If I pass this course and then take on level 3, that is a direct route to becoming a personal trainer.
Click to expand...
Do any gyms even offer full time jobs to personal trainers? The gym I use has two managers, they both work on rotation of early and late shift and are the only ones who have a regular shift. The personal trainers are only there for when someone has booked a PT session or stand in should one of the managers be off sick or on holiday.
There are also personal trainers that don't work at the gym, but use the gym for PT sessions with their own clients, I guess they have an arrangement with the owner, pay a set amount for use of the equipment etc, and keep the rest of the money for themselves.
 
BBR said:
Zero hours contracts are ideal for students or those who only want a few hours per week.
There are loads of skilled jobs available with 40-45 hours per week, surely acquiring those skills would be more useful. For example, there is a shortage of truck drivers throughout the UK.
Click to expand...


Yeah right - 58 years old and sleep apneoa - who is going to give me a job as a truck driver smart arse?
 
nilagin said:
Do any gyms even offer full time jobs to personal trainers? The gym I use has two managers, they both work on rotation of early and late shift and are the only ones who have a regular shift. The personal trainers are only there for when someone has booked a PT session or stand in should one of the managers be off sick or on holiday.
There are also personal trainers that don't work at the gym, but use the gym for PT sessions with their own clients, I guess they have an arrangement with the owner, pay a set amount for use of the equipment etc, and keep the rest of the money for themselves.
Click to expand...


Thanks for nothing MATE all I am trying to do is get back into work.

You have no f****g idea!
 
scottduffy said:
I think zero hours contracts are a disgrace. It's shocking and an abuse of the employee. I am fortunate enough to have a so called steady job and my wife also has a good job too. I am about to take voluntary redundancy as this isn't what i want to do but these types of contracts worry me. I am hopeful i'll be able to bypass them as i have been offered work when i have the correct license for my new career but i feel for those who have to suffer them.
Click to expand...

We've been repeatedly told that the majority of people on them actually like them. I can't remember the figures and I'm not going to guess but as far as I remember the numbers are a large majority in favour... so maybe it's sector or age dependent as many people seem to hate them.
 
andy700 said:
Thanks for nothing MATE all I am trying to do is get back into work.

You have no f****g idea!
Click to expand...

I feel for you and to a degree, I've been there. Maybe it's time to take (another) long hard look at the paths you could take?

We may have had very different lives and challenges so what I'm about to say may not be applicable... I've had three careers, each time picking something I thought my own strengths and abilities were applicable to and which I thought had a future. I know that you're a way down a road and are committed but as you know it's a hard world and perhaps it's worth just thinking if there's an easier path you could take?
 
I think both zero hours and apprenticeships have their place but unfortunately like most things people will take advantage. And to make it worst I'm sure the Govt don't care, as neither of those groups will appear in unemployment figures I presume.

The fact is however, the way of the world means that some people earn more than others. Whether by skills, education or a thousand other reasons. To me, the most important thing is to enjoy your job - I gave up a better paid job to do what I do now and while sometimes I think of 'what I could have had', I know not dreading work every day is something you can't put a price on.
 
andy700 said:
Thanks for nothing MATE all I am trying to do is get back into work.

You have no f****g idea!
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to stop you from getting back to work, but it is an industry for predominantly part time workers and school leavers hence the low paid apprenticeships and zero hour contracts.
A lot of people who take the PT courses as you are have to fund it themselves and as far as I know, always have done. I've been using gyms for over 30yrs and always found it to be the case. Being older you may well be able to claim a certain niche in the market of clientele wanting a PT session, but at gyms I use, older generation people tend to just train in the mornings, fewer venturing into the gyms in the afternoons and evenings.
 
andy700 said:
Yeah right - 58 years old and sleep apneoa - who is going to give me a job as a truck driver smart arse?
Click to expand...
He was just giving a generic answer not specifically.

Sleep apnoea? Are you overweight?
Unfortunately being male and over 40 are also high risk :)
 
andyscott said:
He was just giving a generic answer not specifically.

Sleep apnoea? Are you overweight?
Unfortunately being male and over 40 are also high risk :)
Click to expand...

He's going through the steps to be a personal trainer.
I suspect he's not in the high risk overweight category. o_O
 
woof woof said:
We've been repeatedly told that the majority of people on them actually like them. I can't remember the figures and I'm not going to guess but as far as I remember the numbers are a large majority in favour... so maybe it's sector or age dependent as many people seem to hate them.
Click to expand...

I`ll be honest and nearly spilt my coffeee when I read that but a quick google amd initial check seems you are right, but I woder who was asked during the survey. I can see it suits some people but I am well aware of how companies can use the contract to their own advantage- not affecting me but I know of a number of people - mostly "youngsters" who feel trapped and obliged to be at companie`s beck and call. Easy answer - get another job/career but not so easy for some.
 
For the record I think apprenticeships are worth their weight in gold and I truly believe they separate the good from the bad as only people who want something badly enough will do it for almost nothing.

Zero hours contracts on the other hand I believe are there to suit companies who want to save on labour costs.

I paid my way through uni working in a bookmakers and it suited me to the ground. Shifts when it suited me and not having to commit. It suited William Hill too as they had another hundred like me waiting incase I never showed for work. People with commitments though cannot live like that. It's unfair.
 
andyscott said:
He was just giving a generic answer not specifically.

Sleep apnoea? Are you overweight?
Unfortunately being male and over 40 are also high risk :)
Click to expand...

From the age of 17 to the age of 40 I weighed 70 - 73 kilos and was extremely fit, competing at a high level in several sports. Then I started to put on weight quickly and was tired all the time. I had never heard of sleep apnoea and for five years it went undiagnosed during which time my weight climbed to 110 kilos and I was semi comatose most of the time day and night. When my GP finally referred me to a sleep clinic, I had gone from being a super fit person with a steady job to a complete wreck, surviving on temporary and contract jobs.
Over the last year I have shed a load of weight, but despite applying for over three hundred jobs (all kinds in varying sectors) I have had four interviews.
As Ruth correctly pointed out, I hope that I can progress to being a personal trainer.
 
scottduffy said:
For the record I think apprenticeships are worth their weight in gold and I truly believe they separate the good from the bad as only people who want something badly enough will do it for almost nothing.

Zero hours contracts on the other hand I believe are there to suit companies who want to save on labour costs.

I paid my way through uni working in a bookmakers and it suited me to the ground. Shifts when it suited me and not having to commit. It suited William Hill too as they had another hundred like me waiting incase I never showed for work. People with commitments though cannot live like that. It's unfair.
Click to expand...


The big problem is that unless you are living at home relying on the bank of mum and dad to bail you out, you cannot live on nothing.
How many people contributing to this thread could honestly survive on £100 per week?
 
woof woof said:
I feel for you and to a degree, I've been there. Maybe it's time to take (another) long hard look at the paths you could take?

We may have had very different lives and challenges so what I'm about to say may not be applicable... I've had three careers, each time picking something I thought my own strengths and abilities were applicable to and which I thought had a future. I know that you're a way down a road and are committed but as you know it's a hard world and perhaps it's worth just thinking if there's an easier path you could take?
Click to expand...

I have tried applying for jobs in different sectors, but never even hear back, let alone get to the interview stage.
I have applied for work in all the supermarkets and department stores (I have never done shop work in my life, and have no experience of sales) and had no replies.
I have absolutely no doubt that I could find work if I was in my twenties or thirties, but the reality is that ageism is well and truly alive in the UK.
 
All I can say is I hope you can try not to lose heart and stick at it. You may come across something and there are employers who actually want older people at least for some jobs so it may be a case of timing. I don't know what sort of CV and letter you have but I hope you're stressing your strengths, maturity, reliability, loyalty, people skills etc that could weigh in you favour and help to tip the balance away from ageism and sleep apnoea.

I have nothing earth shattering to tell you other than many of us have been through at least some of what you are currently going through so you are not alone and maybe the next guy reading your application will have some insight and empathy and give you a chance.

I hope you can stick at it and see a way forward soon.
 
Have a bash at self employment. Permanent zero hours contracts and redundant every Friday!
 
nickEnackEnoo said:
There is a huge difference between what some of the older folk completed as an apprenticeship and many that are being touted as one these days.
Click to expand...

That doesn't make them any less valid for those undertaking them.
 
viv1969 said:
That doesn't make them any less valid for those undertaking them.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I could fairly compare the apprenticeships being used in Supermarkets, offices or the care sector with the 5 years I did as a mechanic.
However the apprenticeship my daughters fiancée did as a joiner? That seems to have been alright.
 
Not that long ago that apprentices paid for their training rather than getting paid to undergo it! One of the ones we had actually cost us way more time and energy than he saved. Had to be supervised when washing out brushes, decanting paint from and back into tins etc..

Gyms and health/sports clubs take the proverbial in some ways. For example, the going rate down here for a Yoga teacher to teach a 1 hour class is £25 and that can be a class of 40+ people. A cheap class at a studio will cost at least a fiver per head for the hour class. On top of that, I understand that gyms (especially) are horrible places to teach at, with noisy and noisome teaching areas, often watched by loud oglers.
 
Phil V said:
I'm not sure I could fairly compare the apprenticeships being used in Supermarkets, offices or the care sector with the 5 years I did as a mechanic.
However the apprenticeship my daughters fiancée did as a joiner? That seems to have been alright.
Click to expand...

Comparing any apprenticeships which are not in similar sectors is daft Phil, and in doing so, you devalue all of them, and those doing them.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top