Yongnuo v Phottix triggers

[RKC]

I am thinking about experimenting with off shoe flash.
Considering these 2, Yongnuo YN-622C or Phottix Strato 2
Phottix being double the money, is there any reason why I would spend double the money?
I am never going to be a pro at this I would be taking shots of my granddaughter and trying some still life, have considered just a cord but don't fancy the idea of that would like the freedom of wireless.
Of course if I ever upgrade then built in wireless would probably be there so would then flog these on.
One thing that does concern me is about voltage of 3rd party units which I do not understand at all, bit too technical for me, do I need to be concerned?

Kit Canon 40D and 430EX

 

[Pheo]

I recently purchased the triggers from Cotswold Photography on ebay - I couldn't tell the difference between these and the Phottix Strato 2, based on the pictures. Another one to consider.

You don't generally need to be concerned with trigger voltages unless you are using much older flashes than the one you list. Although the triggers I purchased can handle 300v.

 

[cotty332000]

Yonguno triggers are great!

My friends and I all use them on different makes and models of camera with no issues at all!

Why spend more?

 

[nigelbb]

I have both. I bought the Phottix Strato 2 before the Yongnuo YN-622C were available but now only ever use the Yongnuo YN-622C as they have far more functionality. Each unit is an interchangeable transmitter/receiver while the Strato units are dedicated as either transmitter or receiver. The biggest difference is that the Strato 2 is just a remote flash trigger while the Yongnuo YN-622C does full E-TTL.

 

[Phil V]

I'd say there might be a question mark over those triggers and the 430ex.
Because they use the camera to set the ratio's I think they need EX II series flashguns (or Yongnuo) for ETTL control to work.
I know I have some issues with PW's and my older flashguns - having to use a controller on the transmitter hotshoe, because the camera sees an incompatible flashgun for ETTL II.

Of course, if the flashgun is actually a 430ex II no problem.

 

[HoppyUK]

YN 622 and Stratos are not the same thing at all.

Strato is a basic manual trigger, albeit a very good one, though it has E-TTL pass-through on the transmitter so you can retain E-TTL on-camera (or a cord) but the remotes are strictly manual.

YN 622 is a full E-TTL trigger, very good too, and amazing value. Biggest drawback is it saves cost by using the camera's on-board flash control and screen and that only works with EXII type guns.

 

[ecoleman]

Does anyone know if you can by a single Yongnuo YN-622C

These look like something I'd like to play with , but would need 3 of them.

 

[Phil V]

Does anyone know if you can by a single Yongnuo YN-622C

These look like something I'd like to play with , but would need 3 of them.

Good question - I've only seen them sold in pairs. But as a pair is so cheap compared to all the competition, I suppose I wouldn't mind having to buy 4 to use 3 - a spare is always useful and at less than £40 each, worth keeping.

 

[PistolPeteUK]

I have seen single 622C for sale, but usually for 80% of the price of a pair.

I only needed 3, but bought 2 pairs as it's would be a pain if one died - it'll take some time to get a replacement.

 

[Steve Smith]

One thing that does concern me is about voltage of 3rd party units which I do not understand at all, bit too technical for me, do I need to be concerned?

Even the really cheap Cactus triggers have a thyristor rated at 400 volts so I wouldn't worry about it. It's very difficult to find a thyristor rated below 250 volts anyway.


Steve.

 

[ecoleman]

Actually, I've just had a thought. I've recently purchased a 600EX-RT.
Do you think the 622C would communicate directly with that or am I living in dreamland?

 

[RKC]

Thank you everyone for your replies much appreciated

I just knew this was never going to easy, never is for me

First thing first mine is not the markII :thumbsdown: so I would not have full E-TTL.

So I was thinking beforehand if I got on with it would probably need a second flash at some point, so if I did want to do that would a mkII work with my 430ex, so if the mkII was first in line and then triggered the second flash, or am I just barking up the wrong tree

 

[Phil V]

You can't daisy chain in and out of it like that.

Your best (cheapest) options are to either get manual triggers, or sell the 480 and get a Yongnuo flash and the YN triggers.

If you want triggers that'll ettl with your flash, they'll be expensive.

 

[RKC]

You can't daisy chain in and out of it like that.

Your best (cheapest) options are to either get manual triggers, or sell the 480 and get a Yongnuo flash and the YN triggers.

If you want triggers that'll ettl with your flash, they'll be expensive.

Cheers Phil, suppose I could use these manually and then if I get on with off shoe flash, change flash in the future to get full E-TTL

 

[Gruffalogill]

Just to throw something else into the mix - have you considered Pixel King triggers? Similar price to the Phottix but full ETTL and also let me control the settings for my 430EXIIs from the camera.

 

[SeedyBee]

I am thinking about experimenting with off shoe flash. I am never going to be a pro at this I would be taking shots of my granddaughter and trying some still life, have considered just a cord but don't fancy the idea of that would like the freedom of wireless.
Of course if I ever upgrade then built in wireless would probably be there so would then flog these on.
One thing that does concern me is about voltage of 3rd party units which I do not understand at all, bit too technical for me, do I need to be concerned?
Kit Canon 40D and 430EX

Hi, RKC. I think that there is some misleading info in the responses!

The YN-622C would serve you well, even with added equipment. The 40D has flash control menus, so can do most of the YN-622 tricks. The 430EX is a YN Class 2 flash - it does E-TTL with FEC, and can be in a ratio with another flash (and 622). It cannot accept Manual power level instructions from the camera.

The 622s will handle modern hot-shoe flashes without risk, and the cable output for strobes can handle 300 volts. Don't worry.

The Pixel Kings have been well superceded (as they needed to be - much promise but inadequate performance) by the 622s, and a cable is just no comparison.

You can find much more info in my "The Other YN-622C User Guide", although it may be overload at this stage.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B77OmmGIg0gMVFpqNkpBYXBHajA

 

[SeedyBee]

I'd say there might be a question mark over those triggers and the 430ex. Because they use the camera to set the ratio's I think they need EX II series flashguns (or Yongnuo) for ETTL control to work.

E-TTL, FEC and ratios is no problem with the YN-622 and the 430EX. The camera has the necessary control to handle it. Even earlier cameras that have no flash control menus can do E-TTL and FEC, but not ratios. (Ratios is just an extension of E-TTL).

 

[SeedyBee]

Does anyone know if you can by a single Yongnuo YN-622C. These look like something I'd like to play with , but would need 3 of them.

yes, but as pointed out, that is expensive.

Just ask the merchant for an odd number - most will sell a set at a reasonable price.

Of course, having an extra one in the pocket for remote testing, and for emergencies is very useful.

 

[SeedyBee]

Even the really cheap Cactus triggers have a thyristor rated at 400 volts so I wouldn't worry about it. It's very difficult to find a thyristor rated below 250 volts anyway. Steve.

Like most triggers today, an IGBT is used for controlling outputs.

The 622 has an IGBT rated at 300V for the PC-sync port, but the hot-shoe contacts are rated at 6 to 12 volts.

 

[SeedyBee]

Actually, I've just had a thought. I've recently purchased a 600EX-RT.
Do you think the 622C would communicate directly with that or am I living in dreamland?

They do not talk the same language at all, at all.

However, the 600EX RT can be used on a YN-622C remote and be fully controlled from the Flash Control Menus.

 

[SeedyBee]

So I was thinking beforehand if I got on with it would probably need a second flash at some point, so if I did want to do that would a mkII work with my 430ex, so if the mkII was first in line and then triggered the second flash, or am I just barking up the wrong tree

That is a very limited configuration - usually a drop in shutter speed, and only Manual mode on the 430EX slave.

Much better to buy 3 or 4 YN-622C at the start!

 

[SeedyBee]

You can't daisy chain in and out of it like that.

You can, in Master/Manual hybrid mode, but it is unsatisfactory.

Your best (cheapest) options are to either get manual triggers, or sell the 480 and get a Yongnuo flash and the YN triggers.
If you want triggers that'll ettl with your flash, they'll be expensive.

Sorry, but I disagree. The YN-622Cs are cheap, and can do E-TTL/FEC with the gear RKC has, and ratios with a second E-TTL-capable flash.

 

[SeedyBee]

I'm sorry to post so many responses at once, but so many comments seemed to need elucidation.

I am a retired old geezer, who wanted good triggers at a reasonable price, that did what I wanted. So I tested and reported on the Pixel Knights (TR-332), then the Pixel Kings. I was disappointed and frustrated. Then the YN-622Cs came along, and tests proved that they did all that was claimed, plus some photog-friendly extensions, and I decided I could die happy!

Instead of a review, I produced "The Other YN-622C User Guide", now at v.3.10. There is also a German translation available. (See link in post 16.)

 

[ecoleman]

Thanks to the replies to my questions. I've ordered a set of two and see how I can on and how they work with my old Sigma flash. If all goes well, I'll order another set.

 

[SeedyBee]

Thanks to the replies to my questions. I've ordered a set of two and see how I can on and how they work with my old Sigma flash. If all goes well, I'll order another set.

Old Sigma? That could be dangerous. Can you check the voltage between the outer rails and the centre pin? If it's more than 12 volts, do not use it on YN-622s.

 

[ecoleman]

Old Sigma? That could be dangerous. Can you check the voltage between the outer rails and the centre pin? If it's more than 12 volts, do not use it on YN-622s.

It's a 500 DG Super. It on the compatible list. When I said old, I meant a few years old.

 

[SeedyBee]

ecoleman - Great. My "old" were 1980s flashes, which after one blew up a trigger, were all thrown out.

 

[Phil V]

E-TTL, FEC and ratios is no problem with the YN-622 and the 430EX. The camera has the necessary control to handle it. Even earlier cameras that have no flash control menus can do E-TTL and FEC, but not ratios. (Ratios is just an extension of E-TTL).

This intrigues me, have you tested ettl (not II) guns controlled by the camera menu?

Because Canon cameras won't natively do this, and won't do it even with the PW Flex system.

Bear in mind I'm not saying they don't work as ETTL guns, but that the camera menu wont recognise a flashgun that's not ETTL II. So when you try to use the menu to communicate, you get an error that theres no compatible flashgun attached. An ETTL flashgun will control ratios etc. but the camera menu doesnt. Id like to know how the YN triggers get round this.

 

[ecoleman]

This intrigues me, have you tested ettl (not II) guns controlled by the camera menu?

Because Canon cameras won't natively do this, and won't do it even with the PW Flex system.

Bear in mind I'm not saying they don't work as ETTL guns, but that the camera menu wont recognise a flashgun that's not ETTL II. So when you try to use the menu to communicate, you get an error that theres no compatible flashgun attached. An ETTL flashgun will control ratios etc. but the camera menu doesnt. Id like to know how the YN triggers get round this.

According to the specs it does work. You can control, FEC, ratios etc but not manual power settings.
I guess the triggers fool the camera into thinking there is a compatible flash attached.

When I attach my sigma flash to my 40D I have limited control via the camera flash menu, so I'm expecting the same limited control via the 622C.

 

[SeedyBee]

This intrigues me, have you tested ettl (not II) guns controlled by the camera menu?

Because Canon cameras won't natively do this, and won't do it even with the PW Flex system.

Bear in mind I'm not saying they don't work as ETTL guns, but that the camera menu wont recognise a flashgun that's not ETTL II. So when you try to use the menu to communicate, you get an error that theres no compatible flashgun attached. An ETTL flashgun will control ratios etc. but the camera menu doesnt. Id like to know how the YN triggers get round this.

The YN-622C when on-camera is a fully-compatible Master flash controller unit. If there is an on-top flash, it is the flash head component of the Master.

The camera menus interact with the 622, and nothing else. The 622 programming looks after whatever is out there. The "no compatible flash" does not appear as there is a compatible "flash" mounted - the 622.

But that is irrelevant for the present question.

Even a non-menu-controllable Speedlite can be used for E-TTL. (The camera determines which flavour, not the flash or 622.) Put the flash into E-TTL mode, and then adjust FEC using the camera's FEC button. It is one of the three ways FEC can be set - on-camera.

The camera menu (see p.11-13 of TOYUG) can enable Wireless mode and set a firing group of A:B and ratio, and this is applied to the mounted 622.

But, this is all Canon stuff, not YongNuo. A good grasp of Canon flash technologies is a pre-requisite for using the YN-622C, as it is designed to handle Canon protocols by radio, with all Canon's limitations.

PS I have used Canon cameras and Speedlites for a decade, and was using E-TTL and FEC long before flash control menus appeared. Nevertheless, I have confirmed that the 622s handle Canon meticulously. Canon does do these things "natively". PWs are well behind in capabilities by today's standards.

 

[RKC]

Hi, RKC. I think that there is some misleading info in the responses!

The YN-622C would serve you well, even with added equipment. The 40D has flash control menus, so can do most of the YN-622 tricks. The 430EX is a YN Class 2 flash - it does E-TTL with FEC, and can be in a ratio with another flash (and 622). It cannot accept Manual power level instructions from the camera.

The 622s will handle modern hot-shoe flashes without risk, and the cable output for strobes can handle 300 volts. Don't worry.

The Pixel Kings have been well superceded (as they needed to be - much promise but inadequate performance) by the 622s, and a cable is just no comparison.

You can find much more info in my "The Other YN-622C User Guide", although it may be overload at this stage.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B77OmmGIg0gMVFpqNkpBYXBHajA

Hello Clive
Thank you for obviously spending a lot of time answering posts
Firstly do you have any objections to me printing your guide?
You are right probably overload some of it might be but I am willing to have a go

 

[SeedyBee]

do you have any objections to me printing your guide?
You are right probably overload some of it might be but I am willing to have a go

I am happy to have it printed, linked to or even placed on a server elsewhere. I just do not want it altered. have fun, Bob.

 

[RKC]

Does anyone know if you can by a single Yongnuo YN-622C

These look like something I'd like to play with , but would need 3 of them.

You can buy singles ebay you can also get a 3 set

 

[RKC]

I am happy to have it printed, linked to or even placed on a server elsewhere. I just do not want it altered. have fun, Bob.

Thank you Clive, prefer reading hard copies

As for altering it zero chance of me doing that

 

[Phil V]

The YN-622C when on-camera is a fully-compatible Master flash controller unit. If there is an on-top flash, it is the flash head component of the Master.

The camera menus interact with the 622, and nothing else. The 622 programming looks after whatever is out there. The "no compatible flash" does not appear as there is a compatible "flash" mounted - the 622.

But that is irrelevant for the present question.

Even a non-menu-controllable Speedlite can be used for E-TTL. (The camera determines which flavour, not the flash or 622.) Put the flash into E-TTL mode, and then adjust FEC using the camera's FEC button. It is one of the three ways FEC can be set - on-camera.

The camera menu (see p.11-13 of TOYUG) can enable Wireless mode and set a firing group of A:B and ratio, and this is applied to the mounted 622.

But, this is all Canon stuff, not YongNuo. A good grasp of Canon flash technologies is a pre-requisite for using the YN-622C, as it is designed to handle Canon protocols by radio, with all Canon's limitations.

PS I have used Canon cameras and Speedlites for a decade, and was using E-TTL and FEC long before flash control menus appeared. Nevertheless, I have confirmed that the 622s handle Canon meticulously. Canon does do these things "natively". PWs are well behind in capabilities by today's standards.

Never having used the YNs this is what tripped me up. I'm aware of what can be done with native ETTL control I too have been using the old functions for s long time. And I've had the PWs a while too ( i think they were the only solution available in the UK when I bought them ).

The PWs are invisible to the camera, so just allow the camera and flash to communicate as if the flash was camera mounted.

As you say the YMs are better in this regard, fooling the camera to believe an ETTL II device is attached. This does make them a very desirable option.

However I can't see how the YNs would set ratios on an older camera without the menu? I can use an AC3 controller on the PWs. Would you have to use an ST E2 type controller (canon or YN ?

 

[SeedyBee]

However I can't see how the YNs would set ratios on an older camera without the menu? I can use an AC3 controller on the PWs. Would you have to use an ST E2 type controller (canon or YN ?

Hi, Phil. You are right on this point, as I said in post#17.

Ratios or Manual levels can be set only using a camera with flash control menus, like the 40D we are talking about. As the 622s have provision for setting only comms channel and groups, there is no other way to set firing groups. You cannot have two masters - 622 and ST-E2. Which Master would the camera obey?

It's all in TOYUG pp.4-5 - Type A, B and C cameras, and class 1 to 5 flashes.

 

[SeedyBee]

By, the way, Phil, I recognised that your perceptions were influenced by the capabilities of PWs. Which is fine. But, the YN-622 requires a different way of thinking.

I selected items from the Contents of TOYUG that showed the significant capabilities of the 622s. Are any of these not handled by PWs? Some are handled better than the 622s, I understand. Then there is the 5DIII compatibility for months. And 6D. And 1D X, although there is instability with ratios. However, the 622 has no facility for updating the firmware.

General
Remote Flashes
On-Top Flash
PC-sync Flash
Factory Reset
Testing lighting setup
Using a Light Meter
Remote Control Mode
Mix Control Mode

E-TTL Mode
Ratio
Flash Exposure Compensation FEC
Flash Exposure Lock FEL
Flash Exposure Bracketing FEB

Manual Mode
Remote Manual
On-flash Manual

Multi Mode (Stroboscopic)

Shutter Sync Modes
First Curtain
Second Curtain
Fast-Shutter Sync
Simple Trigger

Camera Features
High-speed Continuous Shooting
Live View
Modelling Light

Flash features
Flash zoom / coverage
LCD Display
Pilot Indicator

622 Features
AF-assist beam
Sleep Wakeup

 

[HoppyUK]

PW's Mini/Flex is still the most capable auto-TTL flash control system available ATM. Yes, it's more expensive and rather cumbersome compared to the amazingly good YN 622, but the real aces IMHO that PW holds are HyperSync (peak and tail) allowing use of shutter speeds above max x-sync, optimised High Speed Sync that extracts usefully more power in this mode (on Canons) and optimised second curtain sync that makes this features much more useful. All exclusive to PW.

PW's system is very clever, some might say too clever for its own good as these enhanced features are camera-specific and require new firmware when new models come along, but once it's up and running, it's very good.

 

[SeedyBee]

PW's Mini/Flex is still the most capable auto-TTL flash control system available ATM. Yes, it's more expensive and rather cumbersome compared to the amazingly good YN 622, but the real aces IMHO that PW holds are HyperSync (peak and tail) allowing use of shutter speeds above max x-sync, optimised High Speed Sync that extracts usefully more power in this mode (on Canons) and optimised second curtain sync that makes this features much more useful. All exclusive to PW.

You are right. I should not have made it a A versus B argument. Both devices have their role, and PWs have been a godsend for photographers.

I do see that they have a problem. Their chosen radio frequency has a very low reolution capability = slow data transmission. This is becoming a problem with ever-faster camera processors and timing-intensive flash syncs. The 622s can respond very much quicker. So, does PW adopt an adequate frequency and abandon all previous gear, or try to improve speeds by trimming programming?

The 622s have Supersync, which is a whole-burn technique with no control on initiation.

The 622s are designed to implement Canon flash control menus via radio, so by design have no interface for implementing other settings. They do a specific job very well, and that precludes other aspects.

I am personally influenced by doing no studio work whatsoever - all on-location event photography. So I tend to think in terms of those situations. Apologies to Phil and others who felt I was putting PWs down. It was not what I think.

 

[HoppyUK]

You are right. I should not have made it a A versus B argument. Both devices have their role, and PWs have been a godsend for photographers.

I do see that they have a problem. Their chosen radio frequency has a very low reolution capability = slow data transmission. This is becoming a problem with ever-faster camera processors and timing-intensive flash syncs. The 622s can respond very much quicker. So, does PW adopt an adequate frequency and abandon all previous gear, or try to improve speeds by trimming programming?

The 622s have Supersync, which is a whole-burn technique with no control on initiation.

The 622s are designed to implement Canon flash control menus via radio, so by design have no interface for implementing other settings. They do a specific job very well, and that precludes other aspects.

I am personally influenced by doing no studio work whatsoever - all on-location event photography. So I tend to think in terms of those situations. Apologies to Phil and others who felt I was putting PWs down. It was not what I think.

Interesting comments Clive. I don't know about how PW's frequency affects transmission speed, not heard that before, but I certainly think it was a marketing error not to go with the flow and 2.4GHz (not an option in the early pioneering days of PW of course). It's caused them no end of headaches with Canon's RF interference issues and they are still not properly resolved, perhaps never will be. If their choice of frequency is also limiting technical potential in other areas too, then it was surely not a smart move

One thing I have noticed is that while PW's Mini/Flex doesn't have the longest range (even with an 'optimum' gun) the lower frequency seems to have better penetration at closer range when it comes to shooting around obstacles and through walls etc. More a point of interest rather than of much practical significance though

Not sure if you've used PW Mini/Flex much, but for your kind of use I would find PW's enhanced features very useful. They really do work well. YN's Supersync feature is PW's Tail HyperSync. I'm not a big fan of that technique myself (except perhaps with a powerful location studio head with long flash duration) but with the YN 622 the sync timing off-set is fixed whereas it can be optimally adjusted with PWs. I guess that's where PWs score - when you're looking for that last drop of performance.