Wouldn't it be nice to get some decent shots in the Museums?

:) After the damage my dog did in the past I've learned the hard way to keep anything with a strap - attached!

Lindsay, thanks for the comment :)
 
Flightphoto said:
:) After the damage my dog did in the past I've learned the hard way to keep anything with a strap - attached!

Lindsay, thanks for the comment :)
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I always use a strap, just not those annoying neck straps.
 
I have been to the NHM on a weekday and I can completely sympathise with the OP. I didn't go for photos, purely for a good old nose and to see what I could learn. The place was very interesting, but unfortunately I left after only visiting one exhibit as the children there were p*ssing me off too much - and I'm only 21!

I can guarantee if I'd have acted like some of those kids when I was their age I'd have been under control soon enough. But it seems quality parenting is a rarity these days. That's a whole different moral argument though.. lets not go there.

Lindsay D said:
Yes, it is unfortunately an outrageous notion. When I meet a well-behaved child I am absolutely amazed, it's quite a rare event I'm sorry to say.
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Precisely the reason I get so annoyed by unruly kids is because of how polite, well mannered and well behaved the children in my family are, in particular my niece and nephew. In fact my nephew would love the NHM because of how much he could learn there. He's 8 years old and better behaved than the majority of 15 year olds these days!
 
A lot of parents feel discipline and good values are silly, and unnecessary, and not trendy.

When I was younger the word 'borstal' made us go cold and it was a genuine deterrent. Nowadays kids are just 'expressing themselves'. This was the excuse given by a neighbour a few years back when I complained about my lights being pulled up and smashed on my driveway - he said 'hey, they're just kids'. So they're not vandals then, and they're exempt from all forms of punishment. I've had the odd friend bring their kids to my home (uninvited) and they're proceeded to trash the place. And I'm treated to a shrug from the parent and a comment along the lines of "what can you do" or comments that it's my fault for failing to provide a 'child proof environment' or else I'm being 'precious' about my home.

I like the sound of your nephew Danny. I just hope the others in his school don't turn out to be a bad influence over time.
 
Lindsay D said:
A lot of parents feel discipline and good values are silly, and unnecessary, and not trendy.

When I was younger the word 'borstal' made us go cold and it was a genuine deterrent. Nowadays kids are just 'expressing themselves'. This was the excuse given by a neighbour a few years back when I complained about my lights being pulled up and smashed on my driveway - he said 'hey, they're just kids'. So they're not vandals then, and they're exempt from all forms of punishment. I've had the odd friend bring their kids to my home (uninvited) and they're proceeded to trash the place. And I'm treated to a shrug from the parent and a comment along the lines of "what can you do" or comments that it's my fault for failing to provide a 'child proof environment' or else I'm being 'precious' about my home.
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Definitely can agree with and sympathise with you on this one. Too many parents these days are unwilling to take responsibility for their childrens actions. They then wonder why they become impossible to handle as teenagers.

Lindsay D said:
I like the sound of your nephew Danny. I just hope the others in his school don't turn out to be a bad influence over time.
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Well he has been home schooled and will be attending school properly this coming September. He's going to a very good and friendly private school with classes no more than 10-12 students per class. He doesn't tend to get on with other people his own age but he has enjoyed the couple of weeks that he has been there this year which is great :) he sometimes amazes me with his intelligence, in fact, the other day my sister told me that his long term ambition in life is to 'create a sustainable yet cheap form of energy for powering railways'. Smart kid.
 
As a result they ran bleating to their father who banged on my door and told me that if I ever spoke to his little girl again he would break every bone in my body.
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This is what worries me about people today. A totally disproportionate response to the smallest thing that "upsets" anyone.

:bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:

D
 
The other thing David is the fact that people don't stand up for themselves anymore, I was the only person in the entire street to go and speak to the children (whose behaviour had been annoying everyone). I'm small and female and I had no one to back me up - even though I'm pretty sure some of my other neighbours saw the exchange, all the blokes were hiding indoors like frightened rabbits! The same has been the case for a couple of other problems over the years, including a persistently barking dog. All the neighbours complained but nobody was actually prepared to say anything (except me). This country has become weak on so many levels.
 
Totally agree, we're all treated like sheep unfortunately!

I'm saving to move to Canada (saved about £1 soo far - hopefully will happen before I retire lol)
 
We went to the NHM about 2 months ago with the girls , 3 and 6. While they loved seeing the exhibits and behaved beautifully the same can't be said for the large group of French school kids. I had to physically grab 1 to stop him stepping on the youngest, the teacher just looked at me with a "it's going to be a long day" look. I also spent most of the day playing human shield.

I did take my camera but quickly gave up once I saw how busy it was and wasn't worth the grief.

I had been really looking forward to this trip but it was ruined for me by the kids misbehaving. I know kids can get overexcited/bored but I never behaved like that when I visited on school trips as a child! The teachers would have pulled us away and given us a good *******ing.

We ended up leaving early and went to Oxford St instead, which was far less stressful.
 
I'm not sure I'd expect to be left alone to set up a shot with multiple flashes\tripod and what have you in a place like that, but I do have some sympthy regarding the hordes of brats.

When I was visiting Jodrell Bank the other week there were several school parties there at the same time. It wouldn't have been too bad if the teachers had some consideration for the other visitors but they were just following at the back, having a nice chit-chat. For example, when moving the herd around, get them to keep to one side of the path so other visitors, some elderly, don't have to step off the path into the mud to avoid them. Oh, and telling them to shut the **** up wouldn't go amiss from time to time either. :)
 
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ZoneV said:
I'm not sure I'd expect to be left alone to set up a shot with multiple flashes\tripod and what have you in a place like that, but I do have some sympthy regarding the hordes of brats.

When I was visiting Jodrell Bank the other week there were several school parties there at the same time. It wouldn't have been too bad if the teachers had some consideration for the other visitors. For example, when moving the herd around, get them to keep to one side of the path so other visitors, some elderlery, don't have to step off the path into the mud to avoid them. Oh, and telling them to shut the **** up wouldn't go amiss from time to time either. :)
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Ooh no, they can't possibly discipline those children - the children will run home to their parents with a complaint and the parents will be threatening legal action against the school. You see, if you tell a child off when it's been naughty, or if you progress to the dizzy heights of actual discipline, then you will have infringed its human rights, and therefore you are in the wrong. That is the mindset we have to deal with these days.

When I was a kid we had corporal punishment and it worked very well - we didn't see it as violence or abuse, we saw it as fair punishment for the fact we had been well out of order. These days there is a pervasive liberal view that you should tackle atrocious behaviour in a "non-confrontational holistic way". When I was young the back of your parent's hand was about as holistic as it got - and we got the point pretty quick, without suffering lasting emotional damage funnily enough.
 
yeah, hurray for a bit of child abuse. And even bigger hurray for the more detached physical abuse from the head master an hour or so after the 'event'.


>>>>>>> www.dailymail.co.uk
 
Calling child abuse is a cheap shot IMVHO. Frustrated outpourings on forums are understandable and wouldn't be so common if children were brought up better by caring parents, instilled with some sense of acceptable behaviour in public and escorted by adults willing and able to control them.

I'm not a believer in corporal punishment myself and I did see real abuse by teaches upon children at school and it was sickening but there is a difference between assault and teachers controlling children in their care, or perhaps they should be more willing to cancel a visit if they can't control the children in their care.
 
Ernesto, well crafted discipline isn't abuse. Children know that, they're not stupid. Nor are you infringing a child's human rights if you impose sanctions such as withdrawal of privileges, docking of pocket money, introducing additional chores (good grief, what are they?), removal of treats etc. Bad behaviour is almost rewarded these days.

So what do you suggest they do instead? Because other methods don't seem to be working very well.

The solution appears to be that we all avoid locations where there will be congregations of children. Given that some of us are subsidising those families and contributing to facilities such as schools, parks and other amenities it's understandable we should feel irritated at times.
 
woof woof said:
there is a difference between assault and teachers controlling children in their care, or perhaps they should be more willing to cancel a visit if they can't control the children in their care.
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Quite. In my view not disciplining your child is damaging to that child and doesn't always bode well for his or her future. I remember from my school days that punishments were short sharp and quick. And afterwards the matter was closed and we all got back to normal immediately. These days you have the ridiculous to-ing and fro-ing of letters from the school to the parents and vice versa, the parents taking the child out of school while all this silly nonsense is going on, complaints to school governors - it's absurd and it doesn't help anyone.

I have sufficient teachers in my pool of acquaintances (including my niece) to know that many of them genuinely fear inappropriate accusations or slander - all because they might have told a child off. And what happens? The teacher could be suspended, they have to defend themselves in the worst way imaginable and eventually they might get their job back (if not their reputation).

I fully appreciate that in past decades there have been many cases of teachers abusing students (and it had nothing to do with discipline). That is utterly unacceptable on any level (and unfortunately most often confined to church schools). But in the vast majority of schools there was a healthy balance and it's a great shame that does not exist today. It is essential for the welfare of the child to understand right from wrong, after all the workplace is governed by rules and regulations, and we are all subject to the laws of the land we live in. Too many children will end up learning this the hard way.
 
Lindsay D said:
Ernesto, well crafted discipline isn't abuse. Children know that, they're not stupid. Nor are you infringing a child's human rights if you impose sanctions such as withdrawal of privileges, docking of pocket money, introducing additional chores (good grief, what are they?), removal of treats etc.
So what do you suggest they do instead? Because other methods don't seem to be working very well.
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Yes well crafted discipline is required as per your examples above. However, hitting a child with a stick is not well crafted discipline which is what you were referring to in the rather typical "never did me any harm" manner.
 
I'm going to enjoy having my first child, being ex-RAF I've learned a few disciplines over the years in my teens. My kids won't dare mess about or back mouth me, I'll make the effort to prevent that from happening, after coming out of the RAF I then worked for the Jobcentre for a few years while contracting for an american aviation corp at the time, my god I couldn't believe the customers that were coming in. I had several fights with customers (although they should be called claimants) and the young mums also set their toddlers on the lone parent advisors, we caught one mother using her toddler to steal from staff handbags!
 
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Dave1 said:
I would agree, I think I would find a photographer setting up his "mobile studio" with off camera flashes all over and bags of equipment far more annoying than a bunch of kids running around.

I would suggest wanting to do a full photo shoot should be organised out of normal hours and not while you would be an annoyance to every other visitor to the museum. It's this attitude that causes museums and other public places to bring in blanket "No Photography" policies.
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Agree entirely.

As for feral kids, brats etc - you cannot blame the kids or the teachers. Blame lies with the parents. They are the people to instil respect and values but very few do.

I am amazed that anyone would ever expect any of the museums around the Kensington area would be anything but crowded especially as the end of school year is imminent, swathes of foreign schoolkids are invading en masse (a friend from France is escorting a group of over 100 French teenagers on tour to London and Dublin for 2 weeks)

For something different in London try The Horniman Museum

http://www.horniman.ac.uk/visit

Off the beaten track but worth the effort.

I went there as a 6 year old over 50 years ago and still try to visit every couple of years.

Not sure about off camera flash set ups.....

Steve
 
Flightphoto said:
I'm going to enjoy having my first child, being ex-RAF I've learned a few disciplines over the years in my teens. My kids won't dare mess about or back mouth me, I'll make the effort to prevent that from happening, after coming out of the RAF I then worked for the Jobcentre for a few years while contracting for an american aviation corp at the time, my god I couldn't believe the customers that were coming in. I had several fights with customers (although they should be called claimants) and the young mums (Young, dumb and full of cum) also set their toddlers on the lone parent advisors, we caught one mother using her toddler to steal from staff handbags!
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It's more than a lack of discipline though. We will punish our children (take things away, stop them from doing things, we'll occasionally need to raise our voices) but it's usually not necessary.

It's just a case of raising your children in the right way in terms of the example you set for your children. Teaching them manners by being polite yourself is a HUGE part of it that people just don't seem to understand. Your kids will pick up your habits, good and bad if you let them.

My children are far from angels (and I'm not sure I'd want them that way if I'm honest), but they have respect for others (something that their schools have actually done a great job of teaching them as well.... both public infant/junior schools) and that makes all the difference.

Anyway, if anything tomorrow should make for an interesting social study!
 
Hugh Jarse said:
As for feral kids, brats etc - you cannot blame the kids or the teachers. Blame lies with the parents. They are the people to instil respect and values but very few do.
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Yes the parents are ultimately accountable but they are not with their child for the 35 hours a week at school, they are not there during the trip etc,. so the teachers are responsible at that time. The kids could be little angels when at home.
Controlling children is a key part of the job and if they can't do it they should be taught how to or should not be teaching at all.
 
ernesto said:
Yes well crafted discipline is required as per your examples above. However, hitting a child with a stick is not well crafted discipline which is what you were referring to in the rather typical "never did me any harm" manner.
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A brief encounter with the ruler or the slipper at school was a very rare punishment by the way, saved for the worst offenders such as abusing a teacher, stealing, cheating, bullying etc, or was used when other sanctions had failed. Even though it apparently didn't hurt, it was the thought of everyone watching which was such a good deterrent, and that alone made it effective. Nor would anyone have even considered cloaking that with the mantle of abuse. Ditto a slap on the legs by your parents if you'd been extremely naughty and had failed to respond to all other forms of reasoning. However more forceful physical measures are thoroughly unacceptable in my view.
 
Lindsay D said:
A brief encounter with the ruler or the slipper at school was a very rare punishment by the way, saved for the worst offenders such as abusing a teacher, stealing, cheating, bullying etc, or was used when other sanctions had failed.
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Well that was the problem with it, inconsistency It was handed out more readily at my school and they is something sinister with a head master whacking your bare arse with a stick an hour after the event when he had no involvement in the 'crime'.
It can lead to a very mixed up view of what is acceptable later in life. Would you be happy for a traffic warden to hit you for parking illegally, a policeman to hit you for speeding etc,.?
 
ernesto said:
Controlling children is a key part of the job and if they can't do it they should be taught how to or should not be teaching at all.
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It's not that simple Ernesto (though I wish it were). Teachers are often not allowed to dispense even basic forms of discipline. Of course it depends on what and how one defines effective punishment. Just talking to some children can be completely ineffective, they will simply sneer and continue whatever they're doing. Likewise a teacher cannot pursue a threat or ultimatum unless you have the powers to carry it out. These days there are complaints against schools and teachers for the most trivial of reasons.
 
Thing is, some people are into that uniform thing and being punished :p
 
ernesto said:
Would you be happy for a traffic warden to hit you for parking illegally, a policeman to hit you for speeding etc,.?
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No, because that would not be the defined or appropriate punishment for such an offence. Instead I would pay a fine or face a criminal conviction. As I understand it you cannot realistically apply that to children in a school.

That said if I were given the choice between a fine or a slap on the backside I think I might well choose the latter. :thinking:
 
Lindsay D said:
It's not that simple Ernesto (though I wish it were). Teachers are often not allowed to dispense even basic forms of discipline. Of course it depends on what and how one defines effective punishment. Just talking to some children can be completely ineffective, they will simply sneer and continue whatever they're doing. Likewise a teacher cannot pursue a threat or ultimatum unless you have the powers to carry it out. These days there are complaints against schools and teachers for the most trivial of reasons.
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Yes, I know all that. I have a child (well a 19 year old now). I didn't say it was easy but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done somehow. I had teachers that were great at crowd control and others who were appalling. Neither relied on physical abuse.
 
ernesto said:
Yes, I know all that. I have a child (well a 19 year old now). I didn't say it was easy but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done somehow. I had teachers that were great at crowd control and others who were appalling. Neither relied on physical abuse.
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There was a time, I think in the 1970s and early 1980s when there were some "progressive schools" where they took an incredibly free and lax view towards all forms of discipline and instead encouraged free expression from the students. I don't think that lasted very long.

The teachers I remember who were good crowd control but the ones who had very loud voices and who used those voices effectively. But it wouldn't surprise me if these days shouting was regarded as another form of abuse, even when done appropriately and for the right reasons. But yes, even when discipline was considered normal, there were always some teachers who couldn't be bothered to do their job properly, and we never respected them or liked them.
 
Forgot about shouting, that's also banned according a to a friend who's a teacher, it's down to that 'mental abuse' method - some kids said that it broke them down mentally lol!
 
Reading this with mild interest. I work in a London Museum. Visited the NHM a year or so ago with my grown up daughter as she wanted to see the butterfly exhibit. That was fun, although the humidity fogged up the camera after coming in from the cold! After that we had to queue to get into the main building, it was heaving. No point in bothering trying to shoot the dinosaurs, too many people. I took a few shots of the interior, using the balustrade to hold the camera steady for a long exposure. The only way to try for an empty-ish place is to go when it first opens. The reason the shop sells so many good postcards is their staff photographer has the advantage of a closed building!

I should think all the main museums have rules about photography - for personal use only, limitations on use of flash, definitely no tripods unless you apply for a permit. Commercial use photography attracts a fee if you can get permission. Flash is a bit hopeless in museums anyway, there is too much reflective glass. If I'm feeling creative I sit in the main hall with the camera on a ledge and use long exposure to capture manic shadows! Or look for the unexpected interests that lurk in most galleries.

On another note, I do my utmost to avoid the public areas especially when the school trips are in full flood. Except for first thing before the place opens, its manic.
 
I thought camera flashes weren't allowed in these places as the light damages the items in the museum. Hence why they are under controlled environments such a low lighting.

I have been in a few places where camera flashes are not allowed but you still see people firing them off degrading the history in front of them. A bit of a shame really.
 
HuntingMartians said:
I thought camera flashes weren't allowed in these places as the light damages the items in the museum. Hence why they are under controlled environments such a low lighting.

I have been in a few places where camera flashes are not allowed but you still see people firing them off degrading the history in front of them. A bit of a shame really.
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Yeah, I've been to places where they state no flash but the instructions on the NHM website make no mention of it.
 
Use of flash is dictated by the sensitivity of the material. I imagine most of the NHM collection is not light sensitive.
 
Flash was fully welcomed, the amount of point and shoot cams were over the top!

With regard to light exposure on exhibits, you're correct but this is related to fabric / paper based exhibits where the light can inhibit damage to the exhibit (excuse the rhyme there) - Tapestry etc you get the idea ribbit ribbit ribbit
 
Flightphoto said:
Totally agree, we're all treated like sheep unfortunately!

I'm saving to move to Canada (saved about £1 soo far - hopefully will happen before I retire lol)
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Best to get your application in now then, we've been waiting over two years for them to process our paperwork :( after the provisional ok so that's three years in total!
 
Whoever said there's not much of an opportunity for pictures at the museum was spot on, I really should have left the camera at home and enjoyed the day. We didn't actually find the kids too bad yesterday - there was an obnoxious American kid who was irritating but other than that nobody that stood out. Was probably more irritated by the amount of adults (and older kids) that bumped into my girls without any thought of an apology.

Had lunch in Covent Garden which actually provided some interesting subjects (the street performers) but by that time I just wanted to enjoy the day with my daughters. I don't get much time with them (I work all week, they're busy a lot of the weekend) so it was nice.

Oh, and thanks for the tip about entering from the side!
 
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