Would you like to improve your photography?

[MWHCVT]

>
But this place is a mixed ability forum, inevitably that means you will get beginner and experienced replies.


Sure, but what I so often see on the internet is that someone will post a really awful photo, I mean its bad in everyway, yet LOADs of other poor photographers will critique it saying its fantastic! great photo!

Its not. Its awful.

If a clearly skilled photographer was then to buck the trend and spend the time and give a real quality constructive critique saying its rubbish, he or she will often be shouted down and called a prima dona.

This situation doesn't help anyone.

And if the person commenting and critiquing a photo can't spot really fundamental photographic errors then their coice really isn't valid.

Lead by example and give decent critique, no matter what we say as members about wanting the level of critique to improve the only way to improve the standard of critique is to provide high quality critique ourselves

 

[dinners]

Charlotte, one of the tings we spent a long time trying to get people to do, especially as their photography became more advanced and beyond the 'just wanting to get a nice picture of anything' [which btw, isn't 'worse' imo, it is where most people start from], is get them to explain when posting an image what they were trying to do or achieve.

I think it works both ways

Knowing the photographers intentions can ultimately (through suggestion) influence feedback.

If the photographer gives no indication of what he or she were trying to achieve it may be harder to critique but if people pick up the intention - happy days.

For example:
OP - I took this shot of a new building and wanted to show how it contasts with the older building around it.
Crit - Oh yes, I see what you've done there. I'd say you've succeeded.

OP - Here's a shot of a building
Crit - It's interesting how the building contrasts with the older buildings around it.

 

[simonblue]

Yes & No

Yes, if its pointing out simple mistake they are making in their technique.
No, pointless if its about style & content.

A few years ago i read an piece about Don McCullin,in which they ask him why he had not stay with Magnum,he said every meeting he had been to they just stood around with Leica over their shoulders shouting & and arguing about each others photos.

Now i can see some photographer may enjoy that side of it,but i don't

 

[Forbiddenbiker]

Sure, but what I so often see on the internet is that someone will post a really awful photo, I mean its bad in everyway, yet LOADs of other poor photographers will critique it saying its fantastic! great photo!

Its not. Its awful.

If a clearly skilled photographer was then to buck the trend and spend the time and give a real quality constructive critique saying its rubbish, he or she will often be shouted down and called a prima dona.

This situation doesn't help anyone.

And if the person commenting and critiquing a photo can't spot really fundamental photographic errors then their coice really isn't valid.

I understand what bugs you I really do, but, In bold: I don't think this is true here at TP. Certainly I'm not too bad a photographer, been here ages, and I always speak my mind, often go against the flow if I disagree with people, and yet I don't remember EVER having been shouted down or called a prima dona for presenting useful critique ...to my face anyway.

If the poster can't learn to spot the difference between friendly pleasant critique of the less skilled against possibly vigorous responses to theirs or more often other poster's better shots which are clearly above their league, well, if they don't care to spot the obvious difference then no amount of critique good or bad is going to help them, so don't worry about it.

 

[simonblue]

I'd always much rather receive detailed considered critique than a thousand "nice shots" in fact I almost hate "nice shot" if you think it's good, them please say why you think it's good I've recently made it a personal goal to only ever give proper critique....

I don't see what wrong with that if i like a shot i like it,its as simple as that i may sometime comment on the lighting or the moment the photos caught in.
But its the same with books, films,and painting i don't feel the the need to go into it deeply,and end up in an argument about the pro and cons of them.
To be honest i much rather spend my time taking photos

 

[Forbiddenbiker]

I think it works both ways

Knowing the photographers intentions can ultimately (through suggestion) influence feedback.

If the photographer gives no indication of what he or she were trying to achieve it may be harder to critique but if people pick up the intention - happy days.

For example:
OP - I took this shot of a new building and wanted to show how it contasts with the older building around it.
Crit - Oh yes, I see what you've done there. I'd say you've succeeded.

OP - Here's a shot of a building
Crit - It's interesting how the building contrasts with the older buildings around it.

Seconded, it does work both ways.
If the photographer is specifically looking for emotional response, then saying nothing is very useful. ...but it also doubles to dull any responses, people like to have a written lead in, some details to trigger a chat and reply's.

 

[ancient_mariner]

I'm a little late to this thread.

It's always worth remembering that people create photographs for a wide variety of underlying reasons. Some will use photography as a means to create art, some because they enjoy the technical exercise involved in use of the equipment, some because they want a record of events, some because they want to make their living as a photographer, and some simply because they think they should be taking pictures. For each category except the last it is appropriate to apply differing sets of 'rules' because the ethos varies so much.

As CharlotteM so eloquently explained, the work created by that artist was probably rubbish as motorsports images went, but they may have had great artistic power and impact. If his objective had been to create art from photographing moving vehicles then his work was apparently successful, but it's unlikely he'd sell much to motorsport magazines because the readers wouldn't be interested in colourful blurs.

I'd say the best way to improve your photography is, like playing a musical instrument, about learning how to use the tool for artistic creation to the point where it no longer gets in the way of what you would like to do. Then you can manipulate what you put in so that what comes out of it is what you wanted.

 

[MWHCVT]

I don't see what wrong with that if i like a shot i like it,its as simple as that i may sometime comment on the lighting or the moment the photos caught in.
But its the same with books, films,and painting i don't feel the the need to go into it deeply,and end up in an argument about the pro and cons of them.
To be honest i much rather spend my time taking photos

There is nothing wrong with saying nice shot, but as I said there must be a reason for you to like it e.g. Nice shot, I love the movement on the sky or the colours etc etc there must be a reason why you like it...to me and yes it might just be me but I don't think it is "nice shot" etc type comments have little to no credibility for me without there being some qualification at to why you think it's nice...

 

[big soft moose]

There is nothing wrong with saying nice shot, but as I said there must be a reason for you to like it e.g. Nice shot, I love the movement on the sky or the colours etc etc there must be a reason why you like it...to me and yes it might just be me but I don't think it is "nice shot" etc type comments have little to no credibility for me without there being some qualification at to why you think it's nice...

nice post

 

[big soft moose]

I, In bold: I don't think this is true here at TP. .

I does happen on certain subjects - weddings, being an absolutely classic example. Giving honest crit on some wedding threads (largely the ones where the tog didnt really want crit, he just wanted everone to say wow you're amazing and visit his blog) is often like being the child that said the emporer was naked. - there are some notable members who used to give really good crit who don't bother anymore because they've got tired of being accused of elitism

 

[Deleted member 67219]

If his objective had been to create art from photographing moving vehicles then his work was apparently successful, but it's unlikely he'd sell much to motorsport magazines because the readers wouldn't be interested in colourful blurs.

It was a 'she' I believe. Not a he.

Just saying.

 

[Forbiddenbiker]

I does happen on certain subjects - weddings, being an absolutely classic example. Giving honest crit on some wedding threads (largely the ones where the tog didnt really want crit, he just wanted everone to say wow you're amazing and visit his blog) is often like being the child that said the emporer was naked. - there are some notable members who used to give really good crit who don't bother anymore because they've got tired of being accused of elitism

Ah yes, I forgot about weddings .. Corrected, I mean most forums here but not weddings.

Its also down to how gently you break the bad news sometimes.

 

[cambsno]

There is nothing wrong with saying nice shot, but as I said there must be a reason for you to like it e.g. Nice shot, I love the movement on the sky or the colours etc etc there must be a reason why you like it...to me and yes it might just be me but I don't think it is "nice shot" etc type comments have little to no credibility for me without there being some qualification at to why you think it's nice...

Agree, although sometimes it is just that - a nice shot. Sometimes I will see a perfectly composed shot, all sharp and exposed properly yet it does nothing for me, while something not perfect may make me go wow! Sometimes I just like something and dont know why!

Obviously it depends on subject, IMO a pic of a prop plane needs to have prop blur, likewise I can see a motorsport one needs to be panned. With weddings a nice venue and guests/couple help loads too.

 

[simonblue]

There is nothing wrong with saying nice shot, but as I said there must be a reason for you to like it e.g. Nice shot, I love the movement on the sky or the colours etc etc there must be a reason why you like it...to me and yes it might just be me but I don't think it is "nice shot" etc type comments have little to no credibility for me without there being some qualification at to why you think it's nice...

Sometimes I am just draw to a photo their not always a why, maybe their a need in some people to qualify everything but it's just not in me.
There nothing wrong with it,it's just people are different

 

[MWHCVT]

I do understand that sometimes it is possible that photos don't require critique at least not on the technicalities but I still find it hard that people find it difficult to verbalise beyond nice shot, I mean surely even if you just love a shot you can find a way to describe that love...

I think and the key the is "I" this is all just my humble opinion that some people just don't like to make negative comments...there is probably a multitude of reasons for this :shrug:

 

[Deleted member 67219]

I do understand that sometimes it is possible that photos don't require critique at least not on the technicalities but I still find it hard that people find it difficult to verbalise beyond nice shot, I mean surely even if you just love a shot you can find a way to describe that love...

I think and the key the is "I" this is all just my humble opinion that some people just don't like to make negative comments...there is probably a multitude of reasons for this :shrug:

The often quoted phrase is 'if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all'. Fortunately I was never told this as a child and rather was told just to express myself coherently if I wanted to say something negative.

 

[big soft moose]

The often quoted phrase is 'if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all'. Fortunately I was never told this as a child and rather was told just to express myself coherently if I wanted to say something negative.

IMO that should be 'if you can't say it nicely, don't say it" - I wouldn't say that that precludes negative crit, but it means it needs to be given helpfully and constructively , not "that shot is crap, you must be a moron"

 

[ancient_mariner]

It was a 'she' I believe. Not a he.

Just saying.

Lets just assume I had a human in mind.

To me, the Thumper principle "'if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all'" is a good one to stick to, because it stops us destroying each other. One can apply critique without making it either personal or vindictive, and that's saying 'nice' things because it can build someone up. Generally, if critique can't be given in a manner that's not intended to offend then it's best to hold back.

 

[MWHCVT]

The often quoted phrase is 'if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all'. Fortunately I was never told this as a child and rather was told just to express myself coherently if I wanted to say something negative.

The moose covers my stance below as you allude to its often not what you say but how you say it when it comes to negative critique I think the key word is constructive

IMO that should be 'if you can't say it nicely, don't say it" - I wouldn't say that that precludes negative crit, but it means it needs to be given helpfully and constructively , not "that shot is crap, you must be a moron"

 

[LCPete]

Very interesting thread
To be honest I'm guilty of just posting up shots without much comment
I think it depends on what the person is after
Sometimes im just pleased with the shot and want to share
That's normally the case with my zoo and wildlife shots am happy with what im getting and just want to share
With landscapes tho its entirely different i always struggle with composition and framing the shots
Criticism here is very helpful and I always ask for it

 

[riddell]

I does happen on certain subjects - weddings, being an absolutely classic example. Giving honest crit on some wedding threads

This is a classic example of what I was talking about earlier and occurs because the following timelines have occured.

1. Someone posts some mediocre photos.
2. Other 'photographers' then comment on his photos saying they are brilliant, fantastic.
3. The above is repeated several times.
4. In the meantime in one of those threads a genuine professional photographer will say they are rubbish, and he'll be shouted down.
5. Someone will make the comment that many amateurs are better than professionals and professionals are prima donas.
6. Also in the meantime this guy will have read several other ill informed threads about how you can setup to be a professional photographer with no skill or equipment. You can auto correct everything in photoshop and mobile phone cameras are now better than pro cameras and such as such.
7. This guy now thinks he can be a professional photographer because he is getting so much praise.
8. So he offers to shoot a wedding for next to nothing.
9. Has no idea what he is doing. Totally messes it up.
10. He's already in a huff because the couple are not happy.
11. Yet other poor photographers keep telling him his posted out of focus, blown out bridal dress with a post coming out of the brides head photo is awesome.
12. But his of his 'professional' photos which are totally derided by pros. And let not start that he didn't have backup equipment or insurance....
13. Therefore pros are prima donas and the poster hears what he wants to hear.
14. All this doesn't help anyone, especially those genuinely talented young photographers with good business sense trying to enter the industry.
15. And it certainly didn't help the couple who bargain photography has now resulted in photos they don't even want to look at.
16. So now that couple tells everyone that pro photography is dead because Uncle Jim and his P&S took better photos than the 'pro'
17. And now guy #2 is posting mediocre photos of his cat, and a poster will tell him its awesome and he should be a professional and so the cycle repeats...

 

[simonblue]

 

[big soft moose]

in the meantime this guy will have read several other ill informed threads about how you can setup to be a professional photographer with no skill or equipment. .

to be fair you can set up as a pro photographer with no skill or equipment, its easy - just nick a load of pics off the net to populate a freebie website , and write some blurb about how you are passionate about photography and every shot you take is unique (or indeed steal the blurb off another togs site as well) , - stick a mobile number on there (PAYG) , write a blog composed entirely of hopeful bull puckey , et voila you are now a 'pro photographer'

okay so you're clients will hate you, and you'll probably wind up getting sued and/or as the subject of a daily mail article, but hey that's like really negative thinking and you is only saying that cos you is afraid of new people taking your clients an that, Truth. innit

there are sad to say an unfortunate number of wallys out there who have taken pretty much that route to pro dom - they'll be the ones having a dummy spit in the portraits board because someone has dared to suggest their work isn't the unique shining brilliant thing they think it is.