Would You Let a Gay Man Teach Your Children Performing Arts?

[Cobra]

Is it right then that people cherry pick bits to suit their beliefs?

Absolutely, at the bottom of the article that was linked, in case not everyone read down that far

It’s worth pointing out that the Bible also forbids wearing ‘costly garments’ (1 Timothy 2:9), tearing your clothes (Leviticus 10:6),
working on the weekend (Exodus 31:14–15) and cutting the hair on the sides of your head (Leviticus 19:27),
all of which are likely to happen in the dramatic industries.

Looks like this woman will have a hard time finding a drama school that doesn’t make her kids immoral.

 

[BRASH]

Mountain - molehill.

Thank Christ I'm a bisexual Jew.

 

[nilagin]

I seriously disagree, being who you are should always take precedent over a belief system. One is reality, the other is a belief. And discriminating against people for who they are is just unacceptable, and in my interpretation does not fit with Christian beliefs either.

But for some people their faith determines who they are.
We agree it is perfectly acceptable to be homosexual, but ask yourself why do some people still have a problem with their own sexuality and find it hard to "come out" or even admit it to themselves for that matter?
Whether you, anyone or I have any religious beliefs, our way of thinking will be based on thousands of years of religious belief passed down over generations. At some point that faith may well have waned, but a lot of the values will still be passed on. Some people still have faith so their views will be stronger and as Christianity breaks down into many different factions over the years, people take different meanings from different parts. As far as I'm aware the Bible just states that a man should not lay with a man. How that got interpreted over time is down to our ancestors.

 

[Byker28i]

Why not? Her right to follow her religious belief should have as much relevance as his right to be a homosexual.
Not sure if it was in the link I provided or another item about homosexual rights and discrimination, but it states that all current laws were brought in so homosexuals couldn't be discriminated against just as people can't be for religion or race. Yet in this case homosexuality has set a precedence over religion. So basically the law has made an ass of itself.

The case of the b&b owners refusing a gay couple to stay, plenty on here said they should be allowed to refuse who could stay, regardless of reason, but at the same time, people have been discriminated against for religion, colour, sexuality, sex, nationality, hence why there are so many rules.

If only one could have tolerance, love thy neighbour as thyself etc. unfortunately the human race seems unable to do this,

 

[nilagin]

So presumably the bible passage thats against homosexuality is Leviticus 18:12 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination (using King James version as thats what I grew up with)

So how about Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
So you can't follow one and then not the other, even though Exodus 20:13 says thou shall not kill.

Or is it that the Old Testemant was given to the nation of Israel and not to Christians, these were ruls for the israelites to live their life by, to make them distinct from other nations.
So if we take it that christianity started with the teachings of Jesus, does the old testament apply to christians?
There's plenty of passages in the new testament suggesting they don't, that the new testament is for those following the ministry of Jesus, the Christians, such as Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15
One of the interpretations of Galatations 3:24 is: So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Is it right then that people cherry pick bits to suit their beliefs?

It doesn't say who will carry that out though, or maybe it is just a prediction of a possible reaction.

 

[dejongj]

But for some people their faith determines who they are.
We agree it is perfectly acceptable to be homosexual, but ask yourself why do some people still have a problem with their own sexuality and find it hard to "come out" or even admit it to themselves for that matter?
Whether you, anyone or I have any religious beliefs, our way of thinking will be based on thousands of years of religious belief passed down over generations. At some point that faith may well have waned, but a lot of the values will still be passed on. Some people still have faith so their views will be stronger and as Christianity breaks down into many different factions over the years, people take different meanings from different parts. As far as I'm aware the Bible just states that a man should not lay with a man. How that got interpreted over time is down to our ancestors.

Considering the comments you are making in this thread, and the reaction of the woman as per the OP are you seriously wondering why some people still have a problem and find it hard to "come out"? I mean really? As long as there is this level of discrimination I can fully understand that it is hard.

 

[Byker28i]

[QUOTE="nilagin]
Whether you, anyone or I have any religious beliefs, our way of thinking will be based on thousands of years of religious belief passed down over generations. .[/QUOTE]
Certainly if you're Jewish! but Christianity has only been around for 2000 years

 

[Byker28i]

Absolutely, at the bottom of the article that was linked, in case not everyone read down that far

It’s worth pointing out that the Bible also forbids wearing ‘costly garments’ (1 Timothy 2:9), tearing your clothes (Leviticus 10:6),
working on the weekend (Exodus 31:14–15) and cutting the hair on the sides of your head (Leviticus 19:27),
all of which are likely to happen in the dramatic industries.

Looks like this woman will have a hard time finding a drama school that doesn’t make her kids immoral.

My point being, that's the Old Testament, as given to the nation of Israel, not applying to Christians, who follow the ministry of Jesus.

So why then do 'Christians' insist on cherry picking bits from something that doesn't apply to them?

 

[Cobra]

My point being, that's the Old Testament, as given to the nation of Israel, not applying to Christians, who follow the ministry of Jesus.

I was agreeing with you.
But further went on to show ( under that / their mentality) that in fact no drama school is/ will be suitable for a "good Christian woman"

Religion is complicated that's for sure, and I doubt that anyone understands it fully, save maybe for the most devout theologian.
1000's of years of instruction from all different sources, confuses the matter to the Nth degree.
People are bound to cherry pick the best bits from the books, to suit themselves, rather like a script writer choosing the best bits ( and then modifying others) to make a good film.
If they pick the boring bits, no one would watch the film or indeed follow the teachings

 

[nilagin]

My point being, that's the Old Testament, as given to the nation of Israel, not applying to Christians, who follow the ministry of Jesus.

So why then do 'Christians' insist on cherry picking bits from something that doesn't apply to them?

Because over the past 2000yrs that is the way people have been taught. There are many instances in the Bible where priests have acted out of there own volition rather than from their religious teachings.
I'd be surprised if anyone didn't have differing views of homosexuality 30 or 40yrs ago to what they have now.

If no-one has religious belief their view may well have changed and it could be said should change. But if someone has religious belief, why should that belief have to change, just because a law has changed. Do you still swear an oath on the bible when giving evidence in court? Would be hypocritical to prosecute someone of sexual discrimination after they have sworn an oath on a bible which says men shouldn't sleep with men.
So it's ok for the law to pick and choose, but Christianity, which predates this UK law, can't. There's a word for that, discrimination.

 

[Phil V]

Because over the past 2000yrs that is the way people have been taught. There are many instances in the Bible where priests have acted out of there own volition rather than from their religious teachings.
I'd be surprised if anyone didn't have differing views of homosexuality 30 or 40yrs ago to what they have now.

If no-one has religious belief their view may well have changed and it could be said should change. But if someone has religious belief, why should that belief have to change, just because a law has changed. Do you still swear an oath on the bible when giving evidence in court? Would be hypocritical to prosecute someone of sexual discrimination after they have sworn an oath on a bible which says men shouldn't sleep with men.
So it's ok for the law to pick and choose, but Christianity, which predates this UK law, can't. There's a word for that, discrimination.

Yes there's a word for it.
It's called the law!
Someone's belief in sky fairies doesn't mean they can decide when to follow the law. And swearing on the bible in court? Other options have been allowed for many years.

It seems to me you're not playing devils advocate and you really do side with this stupid superstitious bitch. Frankly, it cements my opinion, but it does somehow undermine your belief that you're the nice guy.

 

[BRASH]

Yes there's a word for it.
It's called the law!
Someone's belief in sky fairies doesn't mean they can decide when to follow the law. And swearing on the bible in court? Other options have been allowed for many years.

It seems to me you're not playing devils advocate and you really do side with this stupid superstitious bitch. Frankly, it cements my opinion, but it does somehow undermine your belief that you're the nice guy.

Stupid, superstitious bitch?? Dear dear.

 

[Phil V]

Stupid, superstitious bitch?? Dear dear.

How would you describe her?

 

[Phil V]

Stupid, superstitious bitch?? Dear dear.

Stupid, for feeling that her beliefs made it OK for her to treat someone badly.

Superstitious - an apt description of someone who believes in the unprovable

Bitch - maybe a bit harsh, but that's how her letter comes across to me.

 

[Byker28i]

Because over the past 2000yrs that is the way people have been taught. There are many instances in the Bible where priests have acted out of there own volition rather than from their religious teachings.
I'd be surprised if anyone didn't have differing views of homosexuality 30 or 40yrs ago to what they have now.

If no-one has religious belief their view may well have changed and it could be said should change. But if someone has religious belief, why should that belief have to change, just because a law has changed. Do you still swear an oath on the bible when giving evidence in court? Would be hypocritical to prosecute someone of sexual discrimination after they have sworn an oath on a bible which says men shouldn't sleep with men.
So it's ok for the law to pick and choose, but Christianity, which predates this UK law, can't. There's a word for that, discrimination.

So you're saying this is exactly the same as some Muslims deciding it's ok to take extremist actions because that's the way they were taught by someone interpreting a religious book they way they want for their own purposes? We agree that's not right for one religion, why should it be different for Christians?people need to recognise when they are being misled and question.

Christians follow the teaching of Jesus and the New Testament. Can you show me where in the New Testament it mentions homosexuality?
It's perfectly reasonable for the woman to withdraw her child, but to say it's against her religion as a Christian is an invalid excuse.

 

[nilagin]

Yes there's a word for it.
It's called the law!
Someone's belief in sky fairies doesn't mean they can decide when to follow the law. And swearing on the bible in court? Other options have been allowed for many years.

It seems to me you're not playing devils advocate and you really do side with this stupid superstitious bitch. Frankly, it cements my opinion, but it does somehow undermine your belief that you're the nice guy.

Why should the law be allowed to discriminate against those beliefs when the law was born out of those beliefs and required people to swear an oath on a book perpetuating those beliefs, to tell the truth. The law can't have it both ways.

 

[nilagin]

Stupid, for feeling that her beliefs made it OK for her to treat someone badly.

Superstitious - an apt description of someone who believes in the unprovable

Bitch - maybe a bit harsh, but that's how her letter comes across to me.

Get a life.

 

[BRASH]

Stupid, for feeling that her beliefs made it OK for her to treat someone badly.

Superstitious - an apt description of someone who believes in the unprovable

Bitch - maybe a bit harsh, but that's how her letter comes across to me.

Yeh, it was all a bit harsh. Just because someone has different beliefs from you (as I have) does not really justify such derogatory remarks imo. In a way it's similar to your opinion on how you have perceived her actions.

 

[Phil V]

Why should the law be allowed to discriminate against those beliefs when the law was born out of those beliefs and required people to swear an oath on a book perpetuating those beliefs, to tell the truth. The law can't have it both ways.

The law doesn't discriminate against beliefs, as some of us have already explained.

The law stops you discriminating against others based on your beliefs.

That's now been pointed out at least 3 times.

How is that difficult to grasp?

 

[Phil V]

Yeh, it was all a bit harsh. Just because someone has different beliefs from you (as I have) does not really justify such derogatory remarks imo. In a way it's similar to your opinion on how you have perceived her actions.

Her actions are illegal, how would you have felt if it was a non Christian discriminating based on their faith?

 

[Phil V]

Get a life.

I have one thanks , I'm not the one wriggling about pretending I don't understand the law because it's uncomfortable as it disagrees with my superstition.

The woman is clearly a moron, you can see most people agree with that (even some 'Christians'), you just feel bad because having agreed with her you feel judged.

That's hardly our fault.

 

[Cobra]

One day, one thread will not descend into personal attacks and name calling ...

Its not too much to ask is it?

 

[nilagin]

The law doesn't discriminate against beliefs, as some of us have already explained.

The law stops you discriminating against others based on your beliefs.

That's now been pointed out at least 3 times.

How is that difficult to grasp?

The bible states that men shouldn't lay with another man as they would a woman. Meaning men shouldn't have sex with men. Yet the law states that you can't discriminate against that, so the law is discriminating against the bible on which it bases it's laws. Get your head out of the sand accept that people do have religious beliefs even if you don't, even though a lot of how you conduct your life will be based on religious belief passed down over generations for 2000yrs. The fact is you just pick and choose which of those beliefs you want more than a Christian and whilst they wish to call themselves a Christian, you don't.
From the way that you and others react to others Christian beliefs is concerning, it's almost as if you have been burned and over reacted.

 

[nilagin]

I have one thanks , I'm not the one wriggling about pretending I don't understand the law because it's uncomfortable as it disagrees with my superstition.

The woman is clearly a moron, you can see most people agree with that (even some 'Christians'), you just feel bad because having agreed with her you feel judged.

That's hardly our fault.

I feel none of the above. Your life and views are somewhat shallow and self centred and no-one has as yet provided any evidence that what the woman has in fact done is illegal.

 

[Deleted member 49549]

So it must be okay for p****'s and zooists then after all it's only their sexual preference. She has withdrawn her children from his class because of her religious beliefs. She's not wished him dead or demanded he be stoned to death.

Do you really think paedophilia is similar to homosexuality?

Perhaps time to think deeply and for a long time about your view of the world....

 

[BRASH]

Her actions are illegal, how would you have felt if it was a non Christian discriminating based on their faith?

The legality of her actions are not the point and not for you nor I to decide. There will be varying opinions as to whether she acted illegally or not. The authorities and ultimately the Courts are the ones to decide if she is guilty of the commission of any crime or offence. No barrack room bull**** can distract from that.

As for the second part of your question, I'm only too aware of the discrimination of which you speak but that's not the issue here because she acted in accordance with her 'Christian' beliefs, rightly or wrongly.

 

[Deleted member 49549]

Considering the comments you are making in this thread, and the reaction of the woman as per the OP are you seriously wondering why some people still have a problem and find it hard to "come out"? I mean really? As long as there is this level of discrimination I can fully understand that it is hard.

I was just about to say the same. Its incredible that he can't see the problems and inconsistencies in his views.

 

[Phil V]

The bible states that men shouldn't lay with another man as they would a woman. Meaning men shouldn't have sex with men. Yet the law states that you can't discriminate against that, so the law is discriminating against the bible on which it bases it's laws. Get your head out of the sand accept that people do have religious beliefs even if you don't, even though a lot of how you conduct your life will be based on religious belief passed down over generations for 2000yrs. The fact is you just pick and choose which of those beliefs you want more than a Christian and whilst they wish to call themselves a Christian, you don't.
From the way that you and others react to others Christian beliefs is concerning, it's almost as if you have been burned and over reacted.

That makes no sense whatsoever. The law is simple, we've explained it simply, it's not up for debate.

You're a Christian, because you happen to have been born into a society that accepted that faith as 'normal'.

If you'd been born in a different land into a different culture, you'd have just as strong a belief about your faith, and you'd think Christianity a false religion.

Those of us who see religion for what it is, are looking at it from a bit further out than you can possibly comprehend. I'm not anti Christian, I just don't believe in one more God than you, there's thousands of Gods we both don't believe in.

But I don't expect you to understand any of that. So to narrow the debate; how do you feel when other Christians tell you that their Christian belief says your homophobia is un-Christian?

 

[Phil V]

I feel none of the above. Your life and views are somewhat shallow and self centred and no-one has as yet provided any evidence that what the woman has in fact done is illegal.

My views aren't self centred, just the opposite, I see the whole of the human race as being equal, I don't feel superior to anyone based on my choosing of the right sky fairy.

 

[Graham W]

Why not? Her right to follow her religious belief should have as much relevance as his right to be a homosexual.

"His right to be a homosexual" It sounds as though you're suggesting that homosexuality is some sort of lifestyle choice.

 

[Furtim]

Yes there's a word for it.
It's called the law!
Someone's belief in sky fairies doesn't mean they can decide when to follow the law. And swearing on the bible in court? Other options have been allowed for many years.

It seems to me you're not playing devils advocate and you really do side with this stupid superstitious bitch. Frankly, it cements my opinion, but it does somehow undermine your belief that you're the nice guy.

Is it the law?

I can find a lot of material about the illegality in respect to employers, vendors etc, but can't find anything (via my phone at least) that references consumers.

Genuine question, I just can't find any references that reference an obligation on consumers.

 

[Phil V]

The legality of her actions are not the point and not for you nor I to decide. There will be varying opinions as to whether she acted illegally or not. The authorities and ultimately the Courts are the ones to decide if she is guilty of the commission of any crime or offence. No barrack room bull**** can distract from that.

As for the second part of your question, I'm only too aware of the discrimination of which you speak but that's not the issue here because she acted in accordance with her 'Christian' beliefs, rightly or wrongly.

According to many Christians I know 'wrongly'.

And if it is 'wrongly' how can she still justify her beliefs? If it's not due to her faith, it's just plain bigotry.

 

[Phil V]

Is it the law?

I can find a lot of material about the illegality in respect to employers, vendors etc, but can't find anything (via my phone at least) that references consumers.

Genuine question, I just can't find any references that reference an obligation on consumers.

There's no need for a reference, she has clearly shown her discrimination in the letter, I'm guessing it's never been tested in court yet.

 

[nilagin]

Do you really think paedophilia is similar to homosexuality?

Perhaps time to think deeply and for a long time about your view of the world....

No, next!

 

[Furtim]

There's no need for a reference, she has clearly shown her discrimination in the letter, I'm guessing it's never been tested in court yet.

From what I can gather, the equality act does not apply though. If it doesn't apply, there's nothing to be tested in court and her actions, however distasteful, are not illegal.

Sorry it's a screen grab.

 

[BRASH]

According to many Christians I know 'wrongly'.

And if it is 'wrongly' how can she still justify her beliefs? If it's not due to her faith, it's just plain bigotry.

Not all Christians will share the beliefs of the 'many' you know. I don't think anyone has to justify their beliefs. It is my view that you cannot pick and choose what you believe. If you believe it you believe it if you don't you don't. You gave no control over that imo. That's not to say you can't realise certain beliefs are wrong but that in itself doesn't cause you to change that belief it's just an acceptance that it's wrong. That's how my mind works anyhow and that's how it's been all my life. Works for me.

 

[Cobra]

There's no need for a reference, she has clearly shown her discrimination in the letter, I'm guessing it's never been tested in court yet.

Do you remember the "bakers" from last year?
I can't find any reference to a court case though.
(Sorry about the link source )

A letter from the Commission said: ‘We have advised Mr Lee that you have acted unlawfully and contrary to Regulation Five of the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2006 which prohibits discrimination in the provision of goods, facilities and services to a person seeking or obtaining to use those goods, facilities or services on the grounds of sexual orientation.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...logan-support-gay-marriage.html#ixzz3stFoLPi1

 

[Furtim]

The more I think about it, it can't be against the law. If it was, I could not choose not to send my kids to a school run by a religious cult because I disagreed with their beliefs.

 

[nilagin]

That makes no sense whatsoever. The law is simple, we've explained it simply, it's not up for debate.

You're a Christian, because you happen to have been born into a society that accepted that faith as 'normal'.

If you'd been born in a different land into a different culture, you'd have just as strong a belief about your faith, and you'd think Christianity a false religion.

Those of us who see religion for what it is, are looking at it from a bit further out than you can possibly comprehend. I'm not anti Christian, I just don't believe in one more God than you, there's thousands of Gods we both don't believe in.

But I don't expect you to understand any of that. So to narrow the debate; how do you feel when other Christians tell you that their Christian belief says your homophobia is un-Christian?

Who said I was a Christian? Being born in a predominantly Christian country I have as you said had an upbringing based on Christianity as has the law of this country which is why until other means were supplied, you had to swear an oath on the bible in court. You only see religion for what you want to see of it, not for what it may or may not be. Some of us are just more tolerant and not so narrow minded as yourself.

 

[nilagin]

The more I think about it, it can't be against the law. If it was, I could not choose not to send my kids to a school run by a religious cult because I disagreed with their beliefs.

Exactly.