Phil V
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And in doing so, she has broken the law, it's quite straightforward.
and please use their services
Would You Let a Gay Man Teach Your Children Performing Arts?
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viv1969
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Exactly.
She withdrew from using his services based on his sexuality.
Clear discrimination.
If he'd refused to teach her kids because of her religious affiliation, I bet she'd be shouting about it.
Byker28i
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or ran a B&B or heavens forbid, be a photographer
dejongj
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Out of interest; how has she reduced his income? Or was that just a reference to her cancelling? Surely that is just a business risk and hence he kept the deposit. I'm not sure how that is relevant to the event.
Is it illegal to decide not to spent your money in shop over another? I thought the law was focus on the other way around. I could be wrong but would be interesting to know.
viv1969
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She had retained his services.
Withdrawing on the basis of his sexuality is discrimination, and illegal.
It's not a grey area.
Phil V
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He might have kept a 'deposit' but she has reduced his weekly income by 2 students.
Sometimes I think you over complicate things just for the drama. It's a weekly class, he's down by 2 numbers, his income is reduced, his overheads haven't, she's costing him money.
Of course his business has a flexible income (as do most) and his numbers go up and down occasionally, and the only control he has over that is his marketing. But the simple fact is, if she'd just cancelled with no explanation, there's nothing to say or do. However, to do that in a discriminatory manner puts her beyond the law. She deserves all the fall out she'll get, plus a bit
boogie man
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Always makes me laugh when someone blames their Christian beliefs for not accepting gays. I thought the whole premise of following the teachings of Christ was that you accept everyone for who they are, without judgement. "Love thy neighbour"? Seems that some of these hardline "Christians" are the most intolerant of people.
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Christianity should be the definition of hypocrisy.
You must love everyone... But you must hate gays..
You must not sin... But when you do, You'll be forgiven...
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Yes I openly admit I have a problem with discrimination, more to the point I have a problem with your bigoted discrimination.
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No she didn't, he did that himself when he saw fit to donate it. If anyone has paid for anything up front and they decide for whatever reason they can no longer take part, they can hope for a refund but don't necessarily get one. I pay my gym membership for a year, if after a month I decide I don't want to go or find I can't go anymore, sure I'd like a refund, who wouldn't but I wouldn't expect it.
If she has done anything illegal, it's odd that it's not covered here. http://www.youngstonewall.org.uk/lgbtq-info/legal-equality.
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Did you mean "your"? Not quite sure what you intended to state.
Phil V
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FFS!
She removed her children from his class, therefore reducing his future income.
I doubt if a 'deposit' covered the whole of the future income, though neither of us knows that for sure, it's not covered in the article, you're as wrong to guess its the same as your gym membership as I am to guess its the same as my kids paid for football, scouts, etc.
Byker28i
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Guys - lets try and keep this civil for a possible interesting discussion. In these days of falling church attendances, a loss of faith generally, it would be interesting to hear from both sides of the argument.
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So it must be okay for p****'s and zooists then after all it's only their sexual preference. She has withdrawn her children from his class because of her religious beliefs. She's not wished him dead or demanded he be stoned to death.
Phil V
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So her bigotry is acceptable (because she believes God sanctions it), despite the law saying it's unacceptable.
But our belief that she is a bad person due to those views is bigotry in your view.
Congratulations, your belief that your views on the matter are superior to the law is commendable.
Phil V
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Well no, we'll stick with the law, it seems to have made a distinction.
Actually it says something hideous about your view that you compare homosexuality to paedophilia, it's actually sickening.
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You can bet your life that this is also being discussed on more "relevant" drama type forums, and no doubt FB too.
Look at all the free publicity he is now getting.
Brilliant comment & probably true
"Theatre without gays is like cooking without spices"
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That's what deposits are for, whether it's a deposit on a flat, a car, anything, To cover any potential loss. If he is any good at his profession and can only take so many students at anyone time he will likely have a waiting list and have replacements to fill those spaces.
dejongj
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As per my post where I asked; or was that just a reference to cancelling? You've now confirmed that.
Lol and you think I over complicate things for drama? I was merely asking as question and even qualified that question within. A simple yes due to the cancellation would have been nice without the drama references.
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A great comment from a ( Gay) mate of mine years ago
When he was accused of being a p**** ( as he was gay)
( Paraphrasing a little)
So you're "straight" that means you are attracted to young girls then?
Well they are female after all ..
Phil V
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Neither of us has seen the contract. So we'll stop assuming.
But if he wasn't gay, might her children have continued to attend beyond the current contract? So there is arguably a potential loss of many years future income. An 8 year old might have 8 years or more of lessons ahead of them.
dejongj
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Fair enough good point about the services already being retained.
viv1969
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No.
She has withdrawn her children because he is gay. You cannot do that. Welcome to the 21st century. It is not acceptable to hide behind the ignorant christian card.
Comparing it to paedophilia or bestiality (I'm assuming that's what you meant, otherwise wtf is "zooist"?) is ridiculous. Both of those are illegal.
Being gay, in this country, is not.
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Certainly don't appear to be falling around here. Loads of cars parked up outside churches on a Sunday morning. Perhaps it's just those that walk, who's number is fallen.
viv1969
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They are falling throughout the c of e parishes. Their own figures show that.
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So it's ok to be homosexual, but not ok to be a Christian.
Homosexuality was at one time illegal, peoples reaction to it would probably have been no different than to paedophilia and bestiality. Perhaps they will also become legal. Hope not but who knows?
Zooists are people who practise Zoophilia (bestiality) which appears to be on the rise in Switzerland. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-horse-sex-abuse-in-switzerland-a6751841.html
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The only distinction in law I can find is that, a service provider can not refuse to provide a service based on a persons sexuality. I find no evidence that a customer wishing for a service to be provided can not decline a service because of a persons sexuality.
Basically a service provider can't discriminate, but a customer can.
viv1969
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It's not OK to discriminate because he's gay. How difficult is that to grasp?
Do you see how ridiculous it is to say that being gay used to be illegal? At one time she'd have been put to death for being a christian.
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I'm sorry but seriously you can't keep comparing homosexuality with paedophilia and suggesting anything along the lines of it being made legal. . To be honest I think you're just trying to bait a fight.
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The comparison or connection was already made by someone else, not me, even though it hadn't been inferred by anyone. The fight was already baited in the original post.
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No more ridiculous than saying Christianity is outdated and they should change their religious beliefs.
Phil V
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Because it's not required specifically, it's obvious that the letter discriminates, and that discrimination is illegal.
I'm presuming you're just pretending you can't understand that, and that you don't really think paedophilia and homosexuality should be treated the same too.
I'm making an assumption that someone who's a very nice bloke would find these attitudes abhorrent and that you're playing devils advocate. After all, you do like to tell us all how you're such a straight up nice bloke
Surely you can't be defending the indefensible?
Byker28i
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one of the positive sides of immigration?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/03/church-attendance-propped-immigrants-study
Although the british social attitudes survey suggests falling attendances for C of E
http://www.natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/british-social-attitudes/
According to the 2011 UK Census, those of no religion are the second largest belief group, about three and a half times as many as all the non-Christian religions put together – at 26.13% of the population. 16,038,229 people said they had ‘no religion’ with a further 4,406,032 (7.18%) not stating a religion. 58.81% described their religion as Christian and 7.88% as some non-Christian religion. This represented a massive change from the 2001 Census, where 15.5% of the population recorded having no religion, and 72% of the population reported being Christian.
Be interesting to see the trend at the 2021 census
Phil V
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We got to here before.
Which bit of Christianity?
Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. And 'Christians' can't agree what they take from the Old Testament.
I know lots of 'Christians' who would find her views abhorrent based on their faith, and plenty of others who'd agree with her, based on their faith!
But clearly they're all 'Christian' so should they all have the same beliefs or not?
As I've said before, Jesus made a lot of noise about rich people, but most Christians seem to believe that being super rich is still acceptable.
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Why not? Her right to follow her religious belief should have as much relevance as his right to be a homosexual.
Not sure if it was in the link I provided or another item about homosexual rights and discrimination, but it states that all current laws were brought in so homosexuals couldn't be discriminated against just as people can't be for religion or race. Yet in this case homosexuality has set a precedence over religion. So basically the law has made an ass of itself.
dejongj
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I see where you are coming from, however you mustn't forget that discrimination itself is wrong and illegal. The woman could have chosen any of the zillion other groups, however she did choose this one, she then entered in this contract, and when you wanted to not proceed she gave a reason which is clearly discriminatory. Hiding behind her religion is no valid excuse for such behaviour, I would argue it is not Christian either to do so, but lets not go down that path. Just because she believes she is Christian doesn't mean she can act like she has done.
However I do wonder how many people are about who are a bit more clued up, and just silently deal with it. I hope very few these days.
Anyway as Ruth and Phil have highlighted, there is a contract in place and by explicitly declaring her reason from cancelling she could bring a bit of bother on herself. If I was her I would have a good and long think about my Christian values, and I think a very big apology is in order. Perhaps some volunteering at the charity chosen wouldn't go amiss to learn about her fellow human beings.
dejongj
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I seriously disagree, being who you are should always take precedent over a belief system. One is reality, the other is a belief. And discriminating against people for who they are is just unacceptable, and in my interpretation does not fit with Christian beliefs either.
Phil V
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Really!
Human rights are simple, and her right to her beliefs are fine... Right up to the point she breaches someone else's rights.
If his homosexuality in some way stopped her praying or going to church, that'd be in breach of her rights, but it doesn't,
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viv1969
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She is free to follow whatever beliefs she chooses.
She is not free to do it at the expense of another's livelihood, nor to use it as a catchall for discrimination.
Byker28i
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So presumably the bible passage thats against homosexuality is Leviticus 18:12 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination (using King James version as thats what I grew up with)
So how about Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
So you can't follow one and then not the other, even though Exodus 20:13 says thou shall not kill.
Or is it that the Old Testemant was given to the nation of Israel and not to Christians, these were ruls for the israelites to live their life by, to make them distinct from other nations.
So if we take it that christianity started with the teachings of Jesus, does the old testament apply to christians?
There's plenty of passages in the new testament suggesting they don't, that the new testament is for those following the ministry of Jesus, the Christians, such as Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15
One of the interpretations of Galatations 3:24 is: So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Is it right then that people cherry pick bits to suit their beliefs?