cardiff_gareth
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I thought I was quite clear from the outset. My apologies
World gone mad or totally justified ? North East Photography ban on school plays
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hollis_f
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Which is why they shaould all be made to wear paper bags over their heads.
gbmphoto
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As a parent, I'd be gutted if I couldn't record my little darling's escapades in plays and pantos and whatever else. If that privilege meant that some other child was placed in danger by me doing so, I'd give it up in a heartbeat. If I had to purchase the school's produced photo/video which had been carefully edited to exclude any children at risk to ensure I had captured the memory on 'film', I'd be more than happy to do so.
Hey, I may even enjoy watching my little one more without seeing her through a viewfinder...
Hey, I may even enjoy watching my little one more without seeing her through a viewfinder...
jmw
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I've really enjoyed reading this thread - and its been very interesting seeing the differing perspectives.
I've been a teacher for nearly thirty years and a Primary School Headteacher for the last 18 - so I'd like to offer a perspective from that viewpoint.... I'm also a very keen photographer / videographer.
Firstly, schools usually come under the administration of Children's Services - and usually Social Services also comes under the same administration (eg at "County" level that would be the Director of Children's Services.) Within schools we are instructed to not allow children in care be photographed for their safety - and this has been well covered within this thread. However - it runs further than this...Schools who ignore the advice of Social Services can have "no notice" Ofsted Inspections thrust upon them for reasons associated with Safeguarding. If found "guilty" of not taking appropriate measures to secure children's safety - then, for example, "Outstanding" schools can and will be immediately put into "Special Measures." This will also frequently result (in recent years) with the sacking / forcing out of the headteacher.
Secondly schools have to be run as businesses. We have to balance the budget - but also we have to be seen to respond to the views of all stakeholders including parents and children. Its interesting to read expressions such as "gouging" being used with regards to selling videos - but I would like to put another perspective on the matter... If I video a school play / production - then I see it as a service for our parents. Elsewhere on this board there are discussions about watching all sorts of events through a viewfinder. Its intended to be a help to parents to provide a video.
If it takes an hour to record the video and then several hours to subsequently master it, render it and run off DVDs - then I don't think that accusations such as "gouging" are fair if the school is charging in the region of £5 - £7. Typically for us 30 copies would sell (year group 60 kids) - and at £5 a time - that's only £150 which probably doesn't cover staff time costs.
These days I put the video up on Vimeo with a school agreed password for parents - ensuring privacy within the school community - and don't charge for them - since more than anything else - its seen as a service to parents. Even if schools do charge and fund raise - its a responsible and entirely reasonably thing to do. I don't make money specifically off videos for the reasons mentioned above - but I have a wonderful PTA who raise more than £10,000 in other ways - so its fair to "give something back" - but schools who do need to raise the extra £150 here and there are only doing so to put the money into other positive children's experiences - they aren't running for private commercial reasons.
As it happens I prefer to allow parents to photograph children in assemblies and plays - but they are requested to only shoot their own children - and if they were obviously pointing their cameras in varying directions - they would be asked to stop. This also would be on the basis that there were no children in care on show at the time. (I lost a whole First Holy Communion video once when it turned out that the choir - who were seated at the front of church in a very visible place included a child in care. We'd thought through checking the FHC children - it was only when processing it - it dawned on me what had happened.
The whole video was lost - and it wasn't possible to put out an explanation to parents. Sometimes we have to make fundamental decisions which we can't transparently explain - parents just have to have trust in the schools.
I've been a teacher for nearly thirty years and a Primary School Headteacher for the last 18 - so I'd like to offer a perspective from that viewpoint.... I'm also a very keen photographer / videographer.
Firstly, schools usually come under the administration of Children's Services - and usually Social Services also comes under the same administration (eg at "County" level that would be the Director of Children's Services.) Within schools we are instructed to not allow children in care be photographed for their safety - and this has been well covered within this thread. However - it runs further than this...Schools who ignore the advice of Social Services can have "no notice" Ofsted Inspections thrust upon them for reasons associated with Safeguarding. If found "guilty" of not taking appropriate measures to secure children's safety - then, for example, "Outstanding" schools can and will be immediately put into "Special Measures." This will also frequently result (in recent years) with the sacking / forcing out of the headteacher.
Secondly schools have to be run as businesses. We have to balance the budget - but also we have to be seen to respond to the views of all stakeholders including parents and children. Its interesting to read expressions such as "gouging" being used with regards to selling videos - but I would like to put another perspective on the matter... If I video a school play / production - then I see it as a service for our parents. Elsewhere on this board there are discussions about watching all sorts of events through a viewfinder. Its intended to be a help to parents to provide a video.
If it takes an hour to record the video and then several hours to subsequently master it, render it and run off DVDs - then I don't think that accusations such as "gouging" are fair if the school is charging in the region of £5 - £7. Typically for us 30 copies would sell (year group 60 kids) - and at £5 a time - that's only £150 which probably doesn't cover staff time costs.
These days I put the video up on Vimeo with a school agreed password for parents - ensuring privacy within the school community - and don't charge for them - since more than anything else - its seen as a service to parents. Even if schools do charge and fund raise - its a responsible and entirely reasonably thing to do. I don't make money specifically off videos for the reasons mentioned above - but I have a wonderful PTA who raise more than £10,000 in other ways - so its fair to "give something back" - but schools who do need to raise the extra £150 here and there are only doing so to put the money into other positive children's experiences - they aren't running for private commercial reasons.
As it happens I prefer to allow parents to photograph children in assemblies and plays - but they are requested to only shoot their own children - and if they were obviously pointing their cameras in varying directions - they would be asked to stop. This also would be on the basis that there were no children in care on show at the time. (I lost a whole First Holy Communion video once when it turned out that the choir - who were seated at the front of church in a very visible place included a child in care. We'd thought through checking the FHC children - it was only when processing it - it dawned on me what had happened.
The whole video was lost - and it wasn't possible to put out an explanation to parents. Sometimes we have to make fundamental decisions which we can't transparently explain - parents just have to have trust in the schools.
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jmw
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Shocking of me! I'm on holiday of course!! I've corrected it now (and written it out 10 times in my best handwriting!)Re. Inspection - a valid viewpoint - but they want experienced headteachers to help other schools and encourage external training for school staff. If no notice inspections come in - its much harder to be out of school and to allow staff to be out of school on legitimate and positive business.
Currently notice is only 24 hours - so its not as if schools can change much in that kind of time - though you can ensure that all staff members (including yourself) are able to be there.
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I should think so too! I'm quite intolerant to this sort of thing from schools. On several occasions I have received a letter from one of my children's schools with errors which I have corrected in red pen and returned. The worst was a letter with a report asking me to agree or disagree with ten statements - except that they were questions. Obvioulsy you can't agree or disagree with a question!
As for the notice period, was it longer than 24 hours once? A couple of years ago I overheard a couple of teachers talking on the bus and one said "if I find out that we're having an Ofsted inspection, I'm going to have loads of work to do". My thought at the time was that an inspection with sufficient time to prepare for was pointless as the inspector sees a prepared and possibly modified version of what the school is doing rather than the truth.
Steve.
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jmw
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Fair enough!
Of course if I was writing a letter home then I would have checked it - however I was writing a minor piece for a photography messageboard on this occasion - so I will give myself a little leeway for my apostrophe catastrophe!!
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As you stayed at your desk to write the 10 lines, and you have now corrected the error,Of course if I was writing a letter home then I would have checked it - however I was writing a minor piece for a photography messageboard on this occasion - so I will give myself a little leeway for my apostrophe catastrophe!!
you are absolved of any wrong doing
Besides, (when) you are on holiday, you like the rest of us,
are allowed to let your hair down a little
That was an interesting and informative insight,
from the other side of the fence
Lindsay D
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That was an interesting and informative insight,
from the other side of the fence
Yes, my niece is a teacher and it seems the extent to which teachers have their hands tied is ridiculous at times. It's amazing what can be included under a "child protection" policy and much of it (aside from the obvious matter of children who are subject to protection orders) completely fails to stand up to scrutiny.
And woe betide any teacher who attempts to actually discipline an unruly child ....
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Absolutely! I admit my son was a bit of a "hooligan" in his early years,
He could be quite disruptive, there was no "harm" in him,
he wasn't destructive or malicious, just disruptive.
When I discussed discipline with the head (on more than one occasion)
They wouldn't / weren't even allow to shout at him!
Lindsay D
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The wife of one of my friends is a teacher and she had to deal with a particularly obnoxious child on one occasion. She ended up shouting at the little oik and telling him to go and stand outside in the corridor (he had used shocking profanity towards her). This little so-and-so then went home and complained to his parents, who in turn made a complaint to the school for upsetting their little darling. They even demanded that the teacher be suspended. I'm pleased to say that on this occasion the school (rightly) supported the teacher and the parents were given short shrift.
When I was at school talking back to a teacher was generally unheard of. We knew what we would get if we acted up - not just in terms of punishment from the school, but punishment from our parents as well. These days it seems that almost any behaviour, from a minor, should be accepted because discipline is apparently an infringement of their human rights.
Do NOT get me going on this one!
When I was at school talking back to a teacher was generally unheard of. We knew what we would get if we acted up - not just in terms of punishment from the school, but punishment from our parents as well. These days it seems that almost any behaviour, from a minor, should be accepted because discipline is apparently an infringement of their human rights.
Do NOT get me going on this one!
People in glass houses ... etc., etc., etc.
P.S. You left yourself wide open on that one, sunshine.
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Absolutely bloody crazy isn't it?Do NOT get me going on this one!
At least the school saw sense on that occasion!
Absolutely! Like you don't get me started either
View attachment 27110P.S. You left yourself wide open on that one, sunshine.
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People in glass houses ... etc., etc., etc.
P.S. You left yourself wide open on that one, sunshine.
It's almost guaranteed to happen. It's Muphry's Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law
Steve.
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They could ban him or his kids from any further performances though
jakeblu
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Perhaps you ought to point your niece to the powers available to her and her colleagues when dealing with unruly pupils
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/use-of-reasonable-force-in-schools
Lindsay D
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She'll be well aware of that Steve (and I bet she's felt like invoking it at times!). I believe that "reasonable force" applies to situations where a pupil has gone beyond the merely unruly stage and is posing a danger to staff or other students. What I am talking about are the problems teachers face in maintaining day-to-day discipline and reasonable behavioural standards. The unfortunate reality is that many parents will object to even light handed correction. Guidelines can be one thing, but whilst a complaint is being investigated teachers can be put on suspension which is hugely stressful and demoralising for them.
Bernie174
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That's the problem with indiscipline in schools...there is no meaningful sanction.
I admit it, I was a little sod at school. Mostly because I hated at least 4 of the 20 I went to.
So I misbehaved, more so when it was about the time that Her Majesties Air Marshals were about to decided where they wanted the pleasure of Flight Sergeant Bernie's dad's company next (every couple of years). That being the perfect time, as they were even more happy to see the back of me.
So yes, I was lippy, and disruptive, although my attempt to do a Guy Fawkes on one school failed due to the logistical issues associated with acquiring and smuggling in large numbers of fireworks. I spent many an hour studying the corridor walls, which were of no deterrent at all, as I was generally buggering about through boredom, and the wall was often much more interesting.
It was only the threat of the cane that worried me as far as punishments went, but I managed to plead not guilty to the only crimes I was caught for that merited that. Although my dad finding out was the biggest worry. Not one that from experience in a blue suit that seems to bother today's yobbary though.
So, if you can't cane them, their parents are too busy watching xfactor come strictly up the jungle brother, your knackered really. Oh suspension? I would have been over the bloody moon if that had happened to me!
Schools are like society, no deterrent, crime (bad behaviour) goes up. Punish savagely, crime and poor behaviour goes down.
I admit it, I was a little sod at school. Mostly because I hated at least 4 of the 20 I went to.
So I misbehaved, more so when it was about the time that Her Majesties Air Marshals were about to decided where they wanted the pleasure of Flight Sergeant Bernie's dad's company next (every couple of years). That being the perfect time, as they were even more happy to see the back of me.
So yes, I was lippy, and disruptive, although my attempt to do a Guy Fawkes on one school failed due to the logistical issues associated with acquiring and smuggling in large numbers of fireworks. I spent many an hour studying the corridor walls, which were of no deterrent at all, as I was generally buggering about through boredom, and the wall was often much more interesting.
It was only the threat of the cane that worried me as far as punishments went, but I managed to plead not guilty to the only crimes I was caught for that merited that. Although my dad finding out was the biggest worry. Not one that from experience in a blue suit that seems to bother today's yobbary though.
So, if you can't cane them, their parents are too busy watching xfactor come strictly up the jungle brother, your knackered really. Oh suspension? I would have been over the bloody moon if that had happened to me!
Schools are like society, no deterrent, crime (bad behaviour) goes up. Punish savagely, crime and poor behaviour goes down.
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Yes. I have often wondered why schools consider suspension or exculsion to be punishment.
Steve.
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Well thanks for all the input, comments and thoughts and I have to say it has truly opened my eyes to some different perspectives on this matter ! This is why i join these forums and I will be the first to put my hand up and say I was wrong to think that way and there was a lot more too it than even I realized.
Happy Christmas to you all and I hope santa's sack is bulging with electronics
Wedding Photographers Middlesbrough Newcastle York and UK
Happy Christmas to you all and I hope santa's sack is bulging with electronics
Wedding Photographers Middlesbrough Newcastle York and UK
The CPO is a good point. A child might need protecting from a certain person, and might have been moved to a different school for that reason. A pic posted online of e.g. a school play with that child in it, might lead to the child being tracked down.
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That's why I quoted
, and to be fair I replied after I read the post quoted, which was quite early on in the thread.
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cosmicma
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the truth of the matter is that if parents of protected children want to find them they can
in this age of communication it is not that difficult not to mention most estranged parents still have some parental rights and one of those parental rights is to be notified of a school change ridiculous as it seems.
i know this because i have 2 long term foster children and it is written within the court order, also most parents who have had children taken for one reason or another will have some sort of visiting rights set out within the court order and depending on the risk factor will depend on how the visits are conducted ( supervised or unsupervised )
in the case of the 2 children i foster the visiting rights are once a month supervised and have been for the last 7 years or so, unfortunately the father stopped visiting after a few weeks and the mother stopped getting on for 4 years ago but both of them know where they live and which schools they attend
i don't agree with the blanket ban stopping parents photographing their children during school activities but i do have reservations about photo's being plastered all over social media sites by people other than their parents if you get what i mean by that, i know it's not illegal but i think it's inconsiderate if they don't have permission
the other thing to consider is the children themselves plastering selfies ect all over the place it's almost impossible to monitor and quite a lot of this will be done at school with their mates, this alone makes a mockery of the excuse used to blanket ban photo's
i know and understand why schools put the ban in place but it seems a little pointless when you consider the very children they are trying to protect will splash themselves all over media sites anyway
in this age of communication it is not that difficult not to mention most estranged parents still have some parental rights and one of those parental rights is to be notified of a school change ridiculous as it seems.
i know this because i have 2 long term foster children and it is written within the court order, also most parents who have had children taken for one reason or another will have some sort of visiting rights set out within the court order and depending on the risk factor will depend on how the visits are conducted ( supervised or unsupervised )
in the case of the 2 children i foster the visiting rights are once a month supervised and have been for the last 7 years or so, unfortunately the father stopped visiting after a few weeks and the mother stopped getting on for 4 years ago but both of them know where they live and which schools they attend
i don't agree with the blanket ban stopping parents photographing their children during school activities but i do have reservations about photo's being plastered all over social media sites by people other than their parents if you get what i mean by that, i know it's not illegal but i think it's inconsiderate if they don't have permission
the other thing to consider is the children themselves plastering selfies ect all over the place it's almost impossible to monitor and quite a lot of this will be done at school with their mates, this alone makes a mockery of the excuse used to blanket ban photo's
i know and understand why schools put the ban in place but it seems a little pointless when you consider the very children they are trying to protect will splash themselves all over media sites anyway
I agree that it will be difficult to keep the location of a child secret, but that doesn't mean that in some cases schools are obliged to do their bit. I was child protection lead in a school for a number of years and we had one such case. Photos with that child in were definitely out.
The fact that a parent has visitation rights does not always mean they know where the child lives. It can be in a neutral location (and supervised as you mention).
I am not saying that schools cannot be oversensitive, but that in turn might be in deference to parents who just don't want pictures taken of their kids for whatever (reasonable or irrational) reasons. That kind of puts them in a difficult position.
The fact that a parent has visitation rights does not always mean they know where the child lives. It can be in a neutral location (and supervised as you mention).
I am not saying that schools cannot be oversensitive, but that in turn might be in deference to parents who just don't want pictures taken of their kids for whatever (reasonable or irrational) reasons. That kind of puts them in a difficult position.
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I forgot the smiley... I was smiling in real life though
cosmicma
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we sit on different sides of the fence so to speak, you being from the side of the school presuming the parents will knot know and me being on the other side being a foster parent knowing for a fact they do know where they live
i also know that in secondary school the court pack that the primary school had a copy of was never sent on when they started secondary school, the secondary school had no clue what was or wasn't put in place by the courts as far as protection was concerned and when it came into question they didn't seem too bothered about it
primary school on the other hand were very good and made sure they understood the court pack and followed it