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Ricardodaforce said:
I already have. We went to war against an Islamic nation because they failed to abide by UNSC resolutions.
We have continued to support another nation (in that region) that has continued to defy UNSC resolutions whilst they continue to illegally occupy and develop land that isn't theirs whilst subjugating their indigenous moslem population. That's not a great injustice?
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So let me get this straight, acting against a country which ignores unsc resolutions is a great injustice, but not acting is also a great injustice? That makes sense in you world? . Btw I said a different one. I also note you ignored the rest of my comment.
 
gramps said:
No! If they had been shot dead they would have been hailed as 'martyrs' by those with the same distorted minds - as it is they will stand trial and be subject to the law, not the savagery that they themselves promote.
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I'm sure the soldier's parents will find that of great comfort, knowing their sons killers remain alive an well at our expense!
 
boyfalldown said:
So let me get this straight, acting against a country which ignores unsc resolutions is a great injustice, but not acting is also a great injustice? That makes sense in you world? . Btw I said a different one. I also note you ignored the rest of my comment.
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Congratulations for being so deliberately obtuse. As I said earlier, and you conveniently chose it ignore, we need to treat both sides with parity. I can't be blamed if you don't see injustice in apartheid, repressions and subjugation. Maybe in your world it's fine to apply such double standards, but as I see, it's those double standards, and an unwillingness to treat both sides equally, that has lead to this awful situation.
 
gramps said:
No! If they had been shot dead they would have been hailed as 'martyrs' by those with the same distorted minds - as it is they will stand trial and be subject to the law, not the savagery that they themselves promote.
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Thumbs!

We have a long history of democracy and law. Lets not bin all that so that some people can get their retribution.
 
gramps said:
No! If they had been shot dead they would have been hailed as 'martyrs' by those with the same distorted minds - as it is they will stand trial and be subject to the law, not the savagery that they themselves promote.
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I dont think so, are the 7/7 bombers really martyrs?

What annoys me is that we will have to keep them alive... people moan about bankers, royal family, unemployed being a drain on this country, but I fail to see a bigger waste of money than keeping them warm and fed. I also do not have confidence in successive governments having the balls to keep them in jail until they die. No doubt in 25 years someone will bleat on about their human rights.
 
Overexposed said:
I'm sure the soldier's parents will find that of great comfort, knowing their sons killers remain alive an well at our expense!
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Nothing will return their son sadly, so limiting their evil propaganda and letting lawful justice take its course is the best outcome - I should add that I favour the death penalty in such cases ... no issue about guilt here, even for the most ardent liberal.
 
neil_g said:
well this went downhill quick..
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Dont think it has. Things like Terrorism, Religion & race, death penalty and human behavior will always evoke different emotions. We will agree and disagree with some parts of it.
 
Overexposed said:
Anyone who can behead another human being in the name of religion loses any right to compassion or empathy
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As pointed out earlier in this discussion there is a big difference between empathy and sympathy. These people deserve NO sympathy, nobody who does these kind of things does. But to not empathise and see alternate view point (whether you agree with them or not is completely irrelevant) will only breed hate and anger. Empathy is so important if we ever want to get along in this world and with the lack of it around its no wonder terrible events like this occur!

boyfalldown said:
So let me get this straight, acting against a country which ignores unsc resolutions is a great injustice, but not acting is also a great injustice? That makes sense in you world? . Btw I said a different one. I also note you ignored the rest of my comment.
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I may be wrong and Ricardodaforce is free to correct but i think he may have just been addressing the hypocrisy of how we act and wether we do actually have moral intentions behind what we do as a country?



To all those saying they should be killed (although really this is a separate argument about our justice system) by doing that not only do you martyr them to those who follow there beliefs, but you end up just as bad as them, can we not stop the killing? People seem to by saying that there killing was horrific but its ok to let them bleed out or 'dragged through the streets of London roped to the back of a police car'. Do you not see the hypocrisy in doing that?

Some seem to have missed that it is the death that is horrible obviously the way it is done does factor into it, but ultimatly whether it be a bomb a gun or a knife the outcome is horrible and not one we should repeat in some idea of 'justice'.

Jack :thumbs:
 
Ricardodaforce said:
I already have. We went to war against an Islamic nation because they failed to abide by UNSC resolutions.
We have continued to support another nation (in that region) that has continued to defy UNSC resolutions whilst they continue to illegally occupy and develop land that isn't theirs whilst subjugating their indigenous moslem population. That's not a great injustice?
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:clap:
Exactly right. We apply double standards depending which country we deal with. The US more than anyone else, uses its power of veto in the UN to protect a certain country against any type of UN resolution, and then bullies other nations to vote for UN resolutions against certain countries who are out of favour with the US, even though the said countries are complying with international law.
 
Llama said:
I may be wrong and Ricardodaforce is free to correct but i think he may have just been addressing the hypocrisy of how we act and wether we do actually have moral intentions behind what we do as a country?
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Thank you. It's a point that some people just can't grasp.
 
Merc said:
No matter what, we need to support our troops.
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Even if they torture or murder people?
No, I will not have anyone tell me to support them "no matter what" - we are on a very slippery slope when we do that.
 
gramps said:
Nothing will return their son sadly, so limiting their evil propaganda and letting lawful justice take its course is the best outcome - I should add that I favour the death penalty in such cases ... no issue about guilt here, even for the most ardent liberal.
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Sometimes justice is not enough, this is a premeditated attack where there is no justification on any level - it is actually treason to do this to a serving soldier. A show trial is no good - their guilt is unquestionable, they should just be put in a room and allowed to rot slowly without food, water or light and then their remains disposed of in the garbage
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Congratulations for being so deliberately obtuse. As I said earlier, and you conveniently chose it ignore, we need to treat both sides with parity. I can't be blamed if you don't see injustice in apartheid, repressions and subjugation. Maybe in your world it's fine to apply such double standards, but as I see, it's those double standards, and an unwillingness to treat both sides equally, that has lead to this awful situation.
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Rather then being your normal obtuse self you'd read my whole comment. You may want to especially read the bit about agreeing with you re Israel. Then when that's done you could go in a room and argue with yourself.

As I said also, which you've ignored, I'm prepared to bet these to have no interest and care not on jot about that either. They are simply evil men doing evil things
 
Overexposed said:
Sometimes justice is not enough, this is a premeditated attack where there is no justification on any level - it is actually treason to do this to a serving soldier. A show trial is no good - their guilt is unquestionable, they should just be put in a room and allowed to rot slowly without food, water or light and then their remains disposed of in the garbage
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You show the same level of uncontrolled reasoning that they did.

Actually the fact that the victim was a soldier is irrelevant, (other than in their 'target' reasoning), it was a barbaric act of murder.
 
Guys We all know this is a very emotive topic.

However, this is all starting to get a little bit personal!
Its been a good discussion on both (all) sides,
so far, so lets keep the ego's and attitudes out of it.
Thanks :thumbs:
 
Merc said:
Grow up.
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Im not trying to cause an argument but can you be specific about what you think hes done thats childlike? saying he will not support a groups actions 'no matter what' i think is a fairly mature statement.

Extremism has alot to do with following others and belifs 'no matter what' and were clearly having massive fallout from it?

Jack :thumbs:
 
Llama said:
Im not trying to cause an argument but can you be specific about what you think hes done thats childlike? saying he will not support a groups actions 'no matter what' i think is a fairly mature statement.

Extremism has alot to do with following others and belifs 'no matter what' and were clearly having massive fallout from it?

Jack :thumbs:
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Of course i'm not condoning torture. That was a pathetic statement. So many people on here are spouting uneducated nonsense.

I am time served and have an educated opinion on this.
 
Cobra said:
Guys We all know this is a very emotive topic.

However, this is all starting to get a little bit personal!
Its been a good discussion on both (all) sides,
so far, so lets keep the ego's and attitudes out of it.
Thanks :thumbs:
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By page 8 this will be locked - just my 2ps worth!
 
Now I'm being dragged in to this squabbling by Some Keyboard warriors!. A bit disappointed with myself.

Leave you all to it. Have fun!
 
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Merc said:
Of course i'm not condoning torture. That was a pathetic statement. So many people on here are spouting uneducated nonsense.

I am time served and have an educated opinion on this.
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Sorry i wasn't trying to imply you where condoning torture, I was just wanting to know why you felt it saying grow up was appropriate? If you have an educated opinion then discuss it, telling someone to grow up wont help any constructive discussion :shake:

Jack :thumbs:
 
Llama said:
As pointed out earlier in this discussion there is a big difference between empathy and sympathy. These people deserve NO sympathy, nobody who does these kind of things does. But to not empathise and see alternate view point (whether you agree with them or not is completely irrelevant) will only breed hate and anger. Empathy is so important if we ever want to get along in this world and with the lack of it around its no wonder terrible events like this occur!

I may be wrong and Ricardodaforce is free to correct but i think he may have just been addressing the hypocrisy of how we act and wether we do actually have moral intentions behind what we do as a country?

To all those saying they should be killed (although really this is a separate argument about our justice system) by doing that not only do you martyr them to those who follow there beliefs, but you end up just as bad as them, can we not stop the killing? People seem to by saying that there killing was horrific but its ok to let them bleed out or 'dragged through the streets of London roped to the back of a police car'. Do you not see the hypocrisy in doing that?

Some seem to have missed that it is the death that is horrible obviously the way it is done does factor into it, but ultimatly whether it be a bomb a gun or a knife the outcome is horrible and not one we should repeat in some idea of 'justice'.

Jack :thumbs:
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So by using that logic we should have empathy with the edl should they burn down a mosque or murder a Muslim in a similar way? After all they have seen a brutal murder of a soldier in a London st.
 
cambsno said:
I dont think so, are the 7/7 bombers really martyrs?

What annoys me is that we will have to keep them alive... people moan about bankers, royal family, unemployed being a drain on this country, but I fail to see a bigger waste of money than keeping them warm and fed. I also do not have confidence in successive governments having the balls to keep them in jail until they die. No doubt in 25 years someone will bleat on about their human rights.
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You have a very basic view the majority of the time don't you?
 
norters said:
You have a very basic view the majority of the time don't you?
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Explain to me why we should show empathy to the killers yet not to someone who may do a revenge attack then. Pretty clear u have empathy to both or none!
 
cambsno said:
Explain to me why we should show empathy to the killers yet not to someone who may do a revenge attack then. Pretty clear u have empathy to both or none!
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It's not about empathy. It's about decency. These two individuals deserve to be locked up for the rest of their lives. If this happens then they have the same rights as any other prisoner to be fed, clothed and sheltered.
 
cambsno said:
So by using that logic we should have empathy with the edl should they burn down a mosque or murder a Muslim in a similar way? After all they have seen a brutal murder of a soldier in a London st.
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Yup, its not right i wouldn't agree with it and i would want any people who have done it to be bought to justice. But by simply saying its stupid of them to do and wrong we don't solve anything. Looking into why it happened, what made them feel like that was ok and how can we stop things like this happening again is going to be better for everyone. Its not easy to do always and especially harder to do with people from different cultures (wether that be class race or religion). But until we start seeing things from other point of view how can we effectively solve things?
 
And just before the inevitable...they will NOT get a games console.
 
Llama said:
Yup, its not right i wouldn't agree with it and i would want any people who have done it to be bought to justice. But by simply saying its stupid of them to do and wrong we don't solve anything. Looking into why it happened, what made them feel like that was ok and how can we stop things like this happening again is going to be better for everyone. Its not easy to do always and especially harder to do with people from different cultures (wether that be class race or religion). But until we start seeing things from other point of view how can we effectively solve things?
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Latest news is one of the attackers was British, a devout Christian up until 2001, then he became a Muslim.
Strange that many Muslims from birth don't condone these actions.
 
nilagin said:
Latest news is one of the attackers was British, a devout Christian up until 2001, then he became a Muslim.
Strange that many Muslims from birth don't condone these actions.
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Sorry not sure if i understand what you saying :thinking: (been a long day) if your talking about these actions as in the murder then i don't think many people at all condone these actions. If you talking about trying to empathise about things then I'm also confused as i think many muslims do

Might have just misunderstood though?

Jack
 
Ricardodaforce

You accuse people of overlooking earlier events. You are I'm afraid just as guilty of overlooking things.
The UNSC have also ruled on Israels right to exist. Something ignored by some, but certainly not all of the surrounding Muslim Countries.
While it's of course clear that the Israeli's comprehensively ignore the UNSC, perhaps that because their neighbors have also.
What is amusing though is that you accuse the UK of being in the US's pocket on Israel, on the day the Israeli PM declared the UK to be Europe's most Israeli unfriendly!
Anyway, you are detracting from the point, AQ are not a single issue party, who if Isreal ceased to exist tomorrow would give up and go back to whatever they were doing before. No, the only aim is the spread of Islam, or rather their own brand of it. Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, none of these matter a dam to them.
 
Just seen this posted on my FB page No more need be said:

Written by Ian Yates:

Just out for a walk after an early stack
Not looking for trouble, not watching my back
Mothers with prams holding hands with their kids
Not paying attention to the car as it skids
Caught completely off guard not expecting what comes
One man with a knife another with guns
No chance of defence no chance to fight back
Looking for help as the cowards attack
An angel arrives as the light turns to grey
A woman attempts to steer attackers away
My last thought of 'Thank You' never strays from my brain
As my body shuts down and I feel no more pain.

I look to my left and I look to my right
Thousands of squaddies are all that's in sight
Uniforms are crisp and their faces are clean
No sign of anger or hate to be seen
As if by command they salute all as one
The RSM smiles, says 'Welcome home son'.

RIP brother, your in a better place now.
 
Merc said:
Grow up.
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Well, that was an intelligent comment wasn't it?
Now, perhaps if you could follow up with a well thought out argument/discussion, then I may be able to entertain you in a coherent debate;)
 
Merc said:
Of course i'm not condoning torture. That was a pathetic statement. So many people on here are spouting uneducated nonsense.

I am time served and have an educated opinion on this.
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What exactly is "time served" Mark? Is this some experience gained through serving in the forces - BEING OREDERED - what to do, how to react, what to expect from certain people?

I have personal experience of being in air strikes by modern fighter jets, when the local people were not expecting anything to happen - going about their business, seeing schools being bombed - I was sh****g myself, because although there was an air raid warning, nobody took any notice, because it had not happened before.
You have no f****g idea what it is to be attacked by modern military equipment, because the Taliban do not have an air force, navy or any armoured battalons.

I suggest that you put yourself on the other side for a change, because I was there and it was not very nice.
 
norters said:
And just before the inevitable...they will NOT get a games console.
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Sadly many prisoners in this country do get games consoles bought for them out of the pocket of the tax payer and considering their horrific crime then these two will probably end up in the likes of Frankland or Whitemoor and get one of those games consoles just to keep them quiet.
 
Here is what is worrying me, did the attackers KNOW he was a soldier or did they attack him because of his tshirt?
 
Eye for an eye tooth for a tooth, then the killers should be destroyed, the killer also spoke some truths ,in that our government DO NOT CARE FOR THEIR OWN PEOPLE!!!!
 
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