Woolwich

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I agree (for once) with Ding. keep capital punishment out of it, it's not going to happen, so pointless discussing it.

If the EDL are chucking things at Police, it'll be because they are being prevented from doing whatever it is they want to. Certainly not helpful, and playing into the hands of the 2 from earlier.
 
Can you enlighten me what EDL is?
 
I'm not going to comment on whats happened as I hold views that some would maintain are racist when they aren't, but I will say this.

More of the same to come.. sad but inevitable, we have British jihadists fighting in Syria, Afghanistan and similar countries, when they return they will bring not only their radical views with them but also their abilities/determination to carry out such acts.
That needs dealing with now, before it becomes an issue as do home grown radicals.

We really need to empower the treason act again and use it, these are people who are determined to over throw the rule and law of this country, to delude yourself they aren't is to sleep walk into a living nightmare.
They should be dealt with as such, and if they want martyrdom, well for goodness sake hang them, as said they will never repent ,change their views nor can they be reformed and as such will always represent a real threat to the public.
 
The Treason Act is still current.
The only part that has been amended is the maximum penalty for certain acts, mostly in relation to the Sovereign, not the public, where the death penalty was removed. With it in mind that the death penalty was for only certain acts not all, reinstating it would be pointless in relation to todays incident.
Irrespective it matters not one jot, hanging has gone, it ain't coming back.
 
iancandler said:
I'm not going to comment on whats happened as I hold views that some would maintain are racist when they aren't, but I will say this.

More of the same to come.. sad but inevitable, we have British jihadists fighting in Syria, Afghanistan and similar countries, when they return they will bring not only their radical views with them but also their abilities/determination to carry out such acts.
That needs dealing with now, before it becomes an issue as do home grown radicals.

We really need to empower the treason act again and use it, these are people who are determined to over throw the rule and law of this country, to delude yourself they aren't is to sleep walk into a living nightmare.
They should be dealt with as such, and if they want martyrdom, well for goodness sake hang them, as said they will never repent ,change their views nor can they be reformed and as such will always represent a real threat to the public.
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I cannot disagree with that. If you hate the country that gives you chance for a decent life and you don't agree with it's law, please go. I'm trying very hard to be polite.
 
stay safe Lukas

as for the killers, they made statements which defined their reasons for the killing (religious, soldiers killing muslim brothers etc)

for me, I think they are the same as the EDL and BNP nutters, just on the other side of the coin
 
Really horrible thing to happen but interesting to actually hear what the guy who has done it had to say. I know its easy just to label these people as crazy extremists but I think people seriously need to boost there empathy levels. If you've not even asked yourself what drives someone to do this then i think you should now. Yes it could have just been a group of extremists or horribly messed up people (and obviously this will have been a factor) but they did what they did for a reason and the way it was done was clearly to raise the issues up in the media.

To say that in 'our land land women have to see the same' really brings home the distortion of the media, things like this happen everyday all over the world but because it was to a white British person it will be in the news for days. Im not saying that wrong and i don't understand the medias reason for it but we do become very desencitzed to these kind of issues across the world.

The amount of racit responses this has (and will continue to bring up) across the UK is very saddening, one killing here and we see the hate bubble up all over, but think about all the killings our soldiers do on innocent civilians aswell. Know wonder so much of the world hates us.

Im not saying this isn't a horrible horrific attack that should ever of happened, but its always worth thinking from the other side! please dont let this fuel hate to a wider range of people for the actions of individuals!

Jack :thumbs:
 
sturisoma said:
stay safe Lukas

as for the killers, they made statements which defined their reasons for the killing (religious, soldiers killing muslim brothers etc)

for me, I think they are the same as the EDL and BNP nutters, just on the other side of the coin
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Not quite the same. Neither have killed or carried out terror attacks, and both are using democracy to get their message across
 
cambsno said:
Not quite the same. Neither have killed or carried out terror attacks, and both are using democracy to get their message across
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No the EDl and BNP may not have (although there defiantly is intimidation attempts in there marches, yet this is clearly on a whole different level) But you our soldiers defiantly have! athough there can be no justification for there actions you can see what brings people into doing them

Jack :thumbs:
 
Llama said:
Really horrible thing to happen but interesting to actually hear what the guy who has done it had to say. I know its easy just to label these people as crazy extremists but I think people seriously need to boost there empathy levels. If you've not even asked yourself what drives someone to do this then i think you should now. Yes it could have just been a group of extremists or horribly messed up people (and obviously this will have been a factor) but they did what they did for a reason and the way it was done was clearly to raise the issues up in the media.

To say that in 'our land land women have to see the same' really brings home the distortion of the media, things like this happen everyday all over the world but because it was to a white British person it will be in the news for days. Im not saying that wrong and i don't understand the medias reason for it but we do become very desencitzed to these kind of issues across the world.

The amount of racit responses this has (and will continue to bring up) across the UK is very saddening, one killing here and we see the hate bubble up all over, but think about all the killings our soldiers do on innocent civilians aswell. Know wonder so much of the world hates us.

Im not saying this isn't a horrible horrific attack that should ever of happened, but its always worth thinking from the other side! please dont let this fuel hate to a wider range of people for the actions of individuals!

Jack :thumbs:
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In what way can you empathise with people who crash their car into someone and then get out and hack them to pieces with a meat cleaver? There is no justification for it.
 
Agree. Most of the 'innocent' deaths in these countries are not from soldiers, they are from suicide bombers or car bombs set off by people from those counties or same religious beliefs. Very few if any soldiers go out to kill in this way, in any case, the un supports them being there.

So using llamas analogy, the edf have some justification in a revenge attack?
 
Llama said:
but think about all the killings our soldiers do on innocent civilians aswell. Know wonder so much of the world hates us.
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If you seriously think British soldiers rampage across the countryside killing civilians you have very little grasp of the situation. :cuckoo:

The UK rules of engagement are amongst the most stringent in the world and they take extreme steps to try and safeguard civilians, and to try and justify an attack like this on British Army action is just sick.
 
To be fair to Jack I don't think he is condoning in any way the attack. His point is to just all people lunatics and not look at the reason why people are carrying at these attacks won't help us stop these in the future.

When he is talking about empathising, I'm sure he does not mean with what the attackers have done, but in trying to understand what is happening in different countries that is hardly or barely reported here.

Jack feel free to correct me.

I have my own views but at this point I think all we should all do is leave out thoughts with the family of the young man for who this event must be beyond their worst nightmares.
 
Laudrup said:
In what way can you empathise with people who crash their car into someone and then get out and hack them to pieces with a meat cleaver? There is no justification for it.
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Im not saying any reason they have makes it an ok thing to do in the slightest. As a society we need to start learning we can empathise and put ourselves in other people positions without agreeing with them, but trying to understand is important.

The knee jurk reaction to this that I've seen over the internet is a 'im not racist but' kind of thing. What has happened is one British solider has died and it has caused so much hate and anger, extremist groups like the EDl have grouped up and started causing problems. Think of all the drone strikes we order because of people just acting suspiciously, all the people killed in cross fires or mistaken identity, all the people we hold without justification.

We are seen as the terrorists in other countries, how can we not been we cause so much terror. Yet we see our soldiers as the brave boys putting there lives on the line for our freedoms. the hypocrisy of the hate we give to people in other countries for doing, in effect, the same thing shows such a lack of understanding.

I just think its so sad we've seen a horrible murder and instead of reflecting on our own actions and how we do similar things in other countries lots of people have just increase there hate to others.

By empathising we should would be able to see what we do aswell, and instead of increasing the amount of hate, trying to take steps to stoping it!

Jack :thumbs:
 
Dave1 said:
If you seriously think British soldiers rampage across the countryside killing civilians you have very little grasp of the situation. :cuckoo:

The UK rules of engagement are amongst the most stringent in the world and they take extreme steps to try and safeguard civilians, and to try and justify an attack like this on British Army action is just sick.
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Im not trying to justify and attack! where have i said that? Obviously we don't go around rampaging, but we still cause deaths just like this one, if you cant see any parallels of what we do then i think you might be the one with little grasp?

Jack



akr said:
To be fair to Jack I don't think he is condoning in any way the attack. His point is to just all people lunatics and not look at the reason why people are carrying at these attacks won't help us stop these in the future.

When he is talking about empathising, I'm sure he does not mean with what the attackers have done, but in trying to understand what is happening in different countries that is hardly or barely reported here.

Jack feel free to correct me.

I have my own views but at this point I think all we should all do is leave out thoughts with the family of the young man for who this event must be beyond their worst nightmares.
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No thank you that is exactly what I'm trying to say, sorry if it was misinterpreted. And yes, defiantly leaving thoughts with the family, i cannot imagine how horrible today has been and this will stay with them forever. I think whatever your view point on this is, looking to do something pro-active instead of fuelling prejudices is important. Look to how we can stop these events from recurring!

Jack :thumbs:
 
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Llama said:
Think of all the drone strikes we order because of people just acting suspiciously, all the people killed in cross fires or mistaken identity, all the people we hold without justification.

We are seen as the terrorists in other countries, how can we not been we cause so much terror. Yet we see our soldiers as the brave boys putting there lives on the line for our freedoms. the hypocrisy of the hate we give to people in other countries for doing, in effect, the same thing shows such a lack of understanding.
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Yes, our troops patrol Helmand looking for people to smash into with a car and then hack to death.

You can be an apologist, but in the real world THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS ACT.

I had more, but deleted it, it would probably get me banned. I'm going to leave this thread now.
 
Llama said:
Im not saying any reason they have makes it an ok thing to do in the slightest. As a society we need to start learning we can empathise and put ourselves in other people positions without agreeing with them, but trying to understand is important.

The knee jurk reaction to this that I've seen over the internet is a 'im not racist but' kind of thing. What has happened is one British solider has died and it has caused so much hate and anger, extremist groups like the EDl have grouped up and started causing problems. Think of all the drone strikes we order because of people just acting suspiciously, all the people killed in cross fires or mistaken identity, all the people we hold without justification.

We are seen as the terrorists in other countries, how can we not been we cause so much terror. Yet we see our soldiers as the brave boys putting there lives on the line for our freedoms. the hypocrisy of the hate we give to people in other countries for doing, in effect, the same thing shows such a lack of understanding.

I just think its so sad we've seen a horrible murder and instead of reflecting on our own actions and how we do similar things in other countries lots of people have just increase there hate to others.

By empathising we should would be able to see what we do aswell, and instead of increasing the amount of hate, trying to take steps to stoping it!

Jack :thumbs:
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Jack is actually talking a lot of sense, but people don't want to hear it.
In WW2 the French resistance clandestinely fought against an army of occupation, and are perceived as heroes. In Afghanistan there are people that fight against an army of occupation, and are painted by our media as terrorists. Yes we can justify it by saying Karzai wants us there, but do you honestly think he represents the wishes of his country? He's a puppet put there by the west!
No one can justify the horror that occurred in London yesterday, no one. But people should realise that things like this are part of a much bigger picture, the result of 60+ years of terrible political management of foreign policy.
A tragic and sad day indeed.
 
neil_g said:
And the rest, the white west has been killing Muslims for centuries. Anyone remember the crusades?

But again it's no excuse.
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Personally no, they were a little before my time. Using centuries old events as an excuse is a sure way to ensure the world never moves on
 
neil_g said:
And the rest, the white west has been killing Muslims for centuries. Anyone remember the crusades?

But again it's no excuse.
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Well, in that case I am off to cause terror in Italy. I mean, look at what those nasty Romans did when they invaded us.
 
neil_g said:
Nope and I agree, like I said no excuse. Just feels like a never ending cycle of retaliation from both sides.
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Thats the trouble there though exactly what you have said.
People have different opinions and if left long enough to fester it will end up going further than words.
Same as countries, religion, politics, they all have different views or opinions and as such will never be seen to be all working together.

Then you have the extremists who take it to another level and think just because they do not like what others are doing they will do it for them selves or religion or politics in the name of good.

People, animals, creatures, have been fighting since the dawn of time whether it be over food, land or a difference of opinion and it will never ever change.
 
Llama

I'm sorry, there's no place for empathy with terrorists.
And I'm afraid your empathy is causing you to get lost in a red herring

Far from this being done to 'raise issues' in the media, it is like all terrorism, intended to create terror to achieve a means.

The filmed comments are a justification in his mind only, and the reality is far from that justification.

In his country? He has a London accent, and I'd put money on him being born and raised here. I doubt he has the slightest idea what happens in whatever country his family may originate, and what he thinks is more likely formed by others who have an ultimate aim in mind.

As for your assertion that we should "...think about all the killings our soldiers do on innocent civilians aswell."

The difference here is in general, British Soldiers do not and have not for a very very long time gone round hacking people to death for no reason. In wars the innocent get killed inadvertently, and that is a sad accepted fact. There is a vast difference between that and your assumption and their undoubted indoctrinated thoughts.

For you to try to justify their actions with a baseless twisting of an assumption, is as offensive as the thoughts of racists.

The world has a big problem, a movement based on a perverted idea of Islam, and that is what we saw yesterday, not a reaction to something that isn't happening.
 
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sthwild said:
I cannot disagree with that. If you hate the country that gives you chance for a decent life and you don't agree with it's law, please go. I'm trying very hard to be polite.
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I agree 100% with you there, also could the violent British haters take their child grooming, sex trading, rapist brethren with them to their homeland
 
My view is very simple.......

The "powers that be" need to tighten up on UK residents, groups and organisations who openly show hatred towards our country, it's customs and beliefs. If they really hate this country that much then with it being a free country they are free to leave.

If I went to another country and deliberately flouted it's laws and/or customs/beliefs I would expect to be booted out or punished under their laws... when in Rome and all that.

I think as nations go we are one of the most understanding and accomodating yet a minority are blatantly taking the pee out of it now and it needs to stop, regardless of race, religion or beliefs. If you really have such strong objections then find somewhere else to live.
 
This happens in broad daylight, with people watching and taping; but wait....TV channels have dared to show the footage pre-watershed...lets be outraged about that. Sheesh.
 
Laudrup said:
In what way can you empathise with people who crash their car into someone and then get out and hack them to pieces with a meat cleaver? There is no justification for it.
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Unfortunately this is the same response which our politicians (UK and US) give to anyone who tries to explain the theories of "cause" and "effect", regarding our participation in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
As soon as someone tries to link the wars and terrorism, they are accused of somehow justifying the terrorists, which is absolute rubbish.
Whether or not you agree or disagree with the wars (and I personally disagree), it is only a very stupid person (or one with an agenda), who can ignore the fact that the vast majority of terrorist acts against the UK and targets other than the US, happened after 2001.
The fact that some people maintain that "our" troops are not killing civilians, does not change the reality of the situation that hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed as a direct result of our military involvement, and that millions more have been displaced.
The drone attacks by the US have accounted for thousands of innocent civilian deaths, and whilst the term - "collateral damage" may seem an adequate term for our politicians to use, it isn't going to be acceptable to the friends and relations of those civilians who have been killed.
I also think that some people on here need to understand the difference between "empathy" and "sympathy", because they are totally different.
I have no time for the radical preachers who incite others to commit violent acts, and I would not hesitate to have them deported or put in prison here if they are British.
I do however think that we should seriously question why we went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq, why we are still in Afghanistan, what the mission was, and what will happen when we leave.
I know the answers to all of those questions, but it seems that our politicians refuse to be honest to us, to the soldiers they send there, and to the governments and people they are pretending to help in those countries.
The events in Woolwich were horrible, shocking and barbaric, but if we had not involved ourselves in these senseless wars, then yesterday's events would probably never have happened.
 
andy700 said:
Unfortunately this is the same response which our politicians (UK and US) give to anyone who tries to explain the theories of "cause" and "effect", regarding our participation in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
As soon as someone tries to link the wars and terrorism, they are accused of somehow justifying the terrorists, which is absolute rubbish.
Whether or not you agree or disagree with the wars (and I personally disagree), it is only a very stupid person (or one with an agenda), who can ignore the fact that the vast majority of terrorist acts against the UK and targets other than the US, happened after 2001.
The fact that some people maintain that "our" troops are not killing civilians, does not change the reality of the situation that hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed as a direct result of our military involvement, and that millions more have been displaced.
The drone attacks by the US have accounted for thousands of innocent civilian deaths, and whilst the term - "collateral damage" may seem an adequate term for our politicians to use, it isn't going to be acceptable to the friends and relations of those civilians who have been killed.
I also think that some people on here need to understand the difference between "empathy" and "sympathy", because they are totally different.
I have no time for the radical preachers who incite others to commit violent acts, and I would not hesitate to have them deported or put in prison here if they are British.
I do however think that we should seriously question why we went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq, why we are still in Afghanistan, what the mission was, and what will happen when we leave.
I know the answers to all of those questions, but it seems that our politicians refuse to be honest to us, to the soldiers they send there, and to the governments and people they are pretending to help in those countries.
The events in Woolwich were horrible, shocking and barbaric, but if we had not involved ourselves in these senseless wars, then yesterday's events would probably never have happened.
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Very good post. This IS a case of cause and effect. These issues hark back to 1948 and 1967. What happens today is directly related to events happening on a global scale. Whilst we continue to treat one "side" differently to the other "side", whilst we continue to act indifferently when one side flouts UNSC resolutions, yet we use the flouting of UNSC resolutions as justification to go to war against the other side, whilst we support through inaction apartheid and the denial of basic human rights (the same education and healthcare for example), these issues will stay in place.
I am sorry if this isn't very coherent but I am off out shortly and writing quickly. No one is justifying the horror of yesterday. But we DO have very serious questions to ask ourselves about how we have conducted ourselves since the middle of the 20th century.
 
How would this have been dealt with if it was a civilian and not a soldier who got murdered yesterday.
Would the killers be facing a terrorism charge or just a murder charge?
 
Although I agree with a lot of what has been posted, I don't really agree with the cause and effect argument - terrible things are done by people - the spurious reason they decide to hang their hat on to do it is just that. Take that reason away and they will find another one.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Very good post. This IS a case of cause and effect. These issues hark back to 1948 and 1967. What happens today is directly related to events happening on a global scale. Whilst we continue to treat one "side" differently to the other "side", whilst we continue to act indifferently when one side flouts UNSC resolutions, yet we use the flouting of UNSC resolutions as justification to go to war against the other side, whilst we support through inaction apartheid and the denial of basic human rights (the same education and healthcare for example), these issues will stay in place.
I am sorry if this isn't very coherent but I am off out shortly and writing quickly. No one is justifying the horror of yesterday. But we DO have very serious questions to ask ourselves about how we have conducted ourselves since the middle of the 20th century.
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:thumbs:
I will give you one very important, example relating to your last paragraph, an incident which we NEVER hear about from our media, and one which affects our relations with the country concerned to this day.
In 1953, Iran had elected a new prime minister - Mossadeq. This made Iran the only democratic country in the Middle East, but unfortunately the US/UK were not happy with that, because the new prime minister was very popular and wanted to nationalise the oil industry in Iran, so that the Iranian people could benefit from the profits of THEIR resource.
So, in 1953 the US/UK got together and organised something called "Operation Ajax", whereby the CIA/MI6 would organise a coup in Iran, get the military to overthrow the democratically elected government, and instal Reza Pahlavi Shah as the leader.
Fast forward to 1979, and the Iranian people, totally sick of the brutal dictator who we had installed, had a revolution and kicked us (the US/UK) and their Shah out of Iran.
Another example of "cause" and "effect", but also another example of a pivotal moment in Middle East history/politics which our politicians choose to ignore/acknowledge.
 
Dave1 said:
If you seriously think British soldiers rampage across the countryside killing civilians you have very little grasp of the situation. :cuckoo:

The UK rules of engagement are amongst the most stringent in the world and they take extreme steps to try and safeguard civilians, and to try and justify an attack like this on British Army action is just sick.
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Dave,

That may be true. But airstrikes and drone strikes aren't so able to differentiate between civilian and hostile as a soldier on the ground. The amount of civilian deaths throughout recent wars is horrendous, but we justify it by calling it collateral damage.

Also, there was a 75 year old Muslim man killed in a racially motivated attack on Monday in Birmingham. He was stabbed in the back so hard it punctured his chest. Where's the continuous news coverage of that?
 
andy700 said:
Unfortunately this is the same response which our politicians (UK and US) give to anyone who tries to explain the theories of "cause" and "effect", regarding our participation in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
As soon as someone tries to link the wars and terrorism, they are accused of somehow justifying the terrorists, which is absolute rubbish.
Whether or not you agree or disagree with the wars (and I personally disagree), it is only a very stupid person (or one with an agenda), who can ignore the fact that the vast majority of terrorist acts against the UK and targets other than the US, happened after 2001.
The fact that some people maintain that "our" troops are not killing civilians, does not change the reality of the situation that hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed as a direct result of our military involvement, and that millions more have been displaced.
The drone attacks by the US have accounted for thousands of innocent civilian deaths, and whilst the term - "collateral damage" may seem an adequate term for our politicians to use, it isn't going to be acceptable to the friends and relations of those civilians who have been killed.
I also think that some people on here need to understand the difference between "empathy" and "sympathy", because they are totally different.
I have no time for the radical preachers who incite others to commit violent acts, and I would not hesitate to have them deported or put in prison here if they are British.
I do however think that we should seriously question why we went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq, why we are still in Afghanistan, what the mission was, and what will happen when we leave.
I know the answers to all of those questions, but it seems that our politicians refuse to be honest to us, to the soldiers they send there, and to the governments and people they are pretending to help in those countries.
The events in Woolwich were horrible, shocking and barbaric, but if we had not involved ourselves in these senseless wars, then yesterday's events would probably never have happened.
Click to expand...

Imam of Leeds Makakh Masjid, Qari Asim, MBE said:

"London has witnessed an unspeakable, horrific and barbaric act of murder. Early reports suggest that the perpetrators of this sickening attack chanted the name of God at the scene of the crime. Islam does not permit vigilante attacks on anyone and therefore such inhumane acts have no place in Islam.

“Islam places unparalleled value on the sanctity of human life, teaching that the killing of one innocent person is equivalent to the killing of the entire human race. There is no room for any argument or suggestion that this type of callous, cold murder is in any way justified in or ratified by the teachings of Islam."
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So no, there is no justification for it. As for Iraq, Saddam should have been removed in the first Gulf War, and now he is. That's a good thing.
 
Headless Lois said:
Although I agree with a lot of what has been posted, I don't really agree with the cause and effect argument - terrible things are done by people - the spurious reason they decide to hang their hat on to do it is just that. Take that reason away and they will find another one.
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Whilst I totally agree with the bit I have highlighted, why do you have a problem with "cause and effect"?
Imagine a scenario where someone murders your family, and you seek revenge and kill the murderer.
Your two paths would not have crossed, and the events would not have happened but for the other person's decision to commit murder.
That has given you "cause" to seek revenge, and the "effect" is to kill the other person.
 
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