Woo client trouble

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petemc

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Pete
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Got this email today;

There seems to be a few problems with some of the portraits, ie; some appear out of focus and the compression
on a majority of the indoor images is creating undesirable effects.

The outdoor shots are fine, but we seem to have major problems with the indoor images.

Would it be possible for you to bring all the original images in on DVD tomorrow morning?
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Firstly I'm not sure what he's talking about regards to the compression. Level 12 jpgs. Theres a bit of noise due to sharpening but that shouldn't so up printed out unless they're huge prints. One or two are out of focus but that would have been noticeble on the previews I sent to them, which can be seen here. It was quite unexpected to receive this email as they'd received the contact sheets, then web previews to check the quality. I've told them I don't give out all the images on dvd as that could be near 500 images. Does anyone have any good reason why I shouldn't, that I can say to them? All I can think of is unauthorized reproductions of anything they want.
 
What images are they wanting Pete, a couple of the Blond are a bit soft, but Roland and the others dont seem too bad

What was agreed with them in writing?
 
They're wanting 34 from that lot. Which I've sharpened up and given them. Now they've got back to me saying that at 100% zoom they're out of focus and noisey. Well duh :) I'm sending them the unprocessed RAWs converted to JPGs and told them about the noise. I printed them off and you just can't see it at all and thats at A4. Stupidly I forgot to lock down the number that they wanted so I'm not sure where I stand on that issue. I'm going to try to dodge it as much as possible.
 
No suggestions for your problem - just wondering why they were all at f2.8 making the focus more critical?
 
Good reason you shouldnt - do you mean they want the RAWs, a reason not to would be to maintain control of the masters, however it really rests on what your agreement was with them when you took on the project.
 
have they paid Pete?
 
I'd say he's just wanting to have a look through to see if there are any others he prefer to have instead. In fairness to him quite a few of the portraits are a bit soft, particularly the first one.
 
I suppose getting it 100% right 100% of the time is just not possible, if you make a mistake, correct it, offer to retake the shots he's not happy with.
 
dod said:
I'd say he's just wanting to have a look through to see if there are any others he prefer to have instead. In fairness to him quite a few of the portraits are a bit soft, particularly the first one.
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Yeah they are, but I'd say they're still fine for us. From what I saw they're only going to be small images in the pages, not full size A4 prints. Even if they were, they're still ok imho and usable even with sharpening. I'm finding some issues with my Sigma 24-70 annoyingly with it mis-focusing.

But they saw the contact sheets, saw these samples and are now complaining about the focus issues because they're zooming in to 100% in Photoshop. They sent me screenshots showing this, which is really silly.
 
I reckon they just want to get the full size images off you cos there's probably some nelly-know-it-all that reckons they can edit them better than you have done. They look brilliant to me at the small size we can see on here...

Are they using them for printing in magazines etc?

Tell them to view them at print size not at 100% at this produces the undesired effect because the pixels are spread out too far. Blind em with science, let them know that you know what you're talking about!

Web previews won't work unless you tell them the maximum size they are to be printed at...

Does this make sense?
 
petemc said:
Yeah they are, but I'd say they're still fine for us. From what I saw they're only going to be small images in the pages, not full size A4 prints. Even if they were, they're still ok imho and usable even with sharpening. I'm finding some issues with my Sigma 24-70 annoyingly with it mis-focusing.

But they saw the contact sheets, saw these samples and are now complaining about the focus issues because they're zooming in to 100% in Photoshop. They sent me screenshots showing this, which is really silly.
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Fair comment, they look okay on the previews :)
 
petemc said:
But they saw the contact sheets, saw these samples and are now complaining about the focus issues because they're zooming in to 100% in Photoshop. They sent me screenshots showing this, which is really silly.
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The thing that strikes me with this (and please dont take this personally, because I've seen what you've achieved in the past) is that the above comment reads to me as the shots are out of focus but for them they'll do. But they paid/ are going to pay you to provide professional quality images, at 100% every image should be sharp and in focus no matter what the conditions. Its above 100% that it would deteriorate surely.

If Im reading this wrong please correct me :help:
 
Marianne said:
I reckon they just want to get the full size images off you cos there's probably some nelly-know-it-all that reckons they can edit them better than you have done. They look brilliant to me at the small size we can see on here...

Are they using them for printing in magazines etc?

Tell them to view them at print size not at 100% at this produces the undesired effect because the pixels are spread out too far. Blind em with science, let them know that you know what you're talking about!

Web previews won't work unless you tell them the maximum size they are to be printed at...

Does this make sense?
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They're using them in the prospectus for a local college. I never thought of the print size option, great idea :)

Warspite said:
The thing that strikes me with this statement (and please dont take this personally, because I've seen what you've achieved in the past) is the that the above comment reads to me as the shots are out of focus but for them they'll do. But they paid/ are going to pay you to provide professional quality images, at 100% every image should be sharp and in focus no matter what the conditions. Its above in which it should deteriorate surely.

If Im reading this wrong please correct me :help:
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No you're right but I seem to be having issues with this Sigma lens. It seemed fine through the lens but the results were off. I figured that for their purposes you wouldn't be able to see that they were slightly out of focus. I'm planning on upgrading to the Canon 24-70 to ensure better results asap.
 
send it to sigma for calibrating Pete, i had an 18 -50 that was **** poor, they calibrated it and its fine!
 
Its off sometimes and brilliant others. Does that sound like just a normal Sigma or a specific calibration issue? How long does it take?
 
if you ring them and ask for technical, they will ask you to send them a couple of shots at lowest and largest aperture, of something like a row of dominoes, then if they think its a lens issue they will ask you to send it in, if its in warrenty you pay nothing, if its out you pay £33 and they return via UPS, did mine from start to finish in a week.
 
Cool not too bad. Its under warrenty so I'll just wait till I have a spare week to send it off. As bad as it can be, when it works its brilliant and I do need it at the mo.
 
Had a look at the previews and quite a few do seem below your usual standard. I'd get the lens sent back with a covering letter with nice words about client complaints etc. As for the client , I'd explain about the lens then offer to re-shoot the problem shots and or haggle price.

If Jessops are still doing their returns policy I would 'rent ;)' a Canon 24-70 for the week from them :)

/edit

for got to say what boon was going to say :)

Boon said:
ps no harm was intended in this thread, it is purely my view, right or wrong..
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sorry pete, but i have to agree with Warspite here, it sounds like you are making excuses and blaming the lens for a bad days shooting, all they are asking for is a really good copy of the photos you took for them, which they are prepared to pay for, whats the problem?
As matty said, one week turnaround for lens calibration, but you need it, so cant be that bad if you are prepared to still use it.
Bite the bullet mate and send them fresh copies.

ps no harm was intended in this thread, it is purely my view, right or wrong..
 
Please don't take this as being disparaging Pete, as like the others here I'm well aware that you are a good photographer.

In this case though, you've supplied less than perffect images to a client and that sadly, is that. It may well be that your shots would look OK at a small size but when you take money to shoot to order you need to hit the bullseye every single time.

If you have a lens (or any part of your kit) that isn't 100% reliable, get shot of it right now. You're reputation is far more fragile and worth far more than any single piece of kit and more importanly, you won't be able to feel creative if you're constantly worried about something letting you down.

This is a bloody hard and cut throat industry to work in these days and with the perception that anyone can shoot with a digi SLR, you need to be at the top of your game all the time and re-prove shoot after shoot why you're worth £££'s a day.

I personally think you should offer to re-shoot anything of even remotely questionable quality. It really is that important to keep every client happy. Also, getting it sorted asap and knowing the client is happy will make sure this doesn't start to eat at your confidence in yourself to provide images of outstanding quality.
 
Boon said:
sorry pete, but i have to agree with Warspite here, it sounds like you are making excuses and blaming the lens for a bad days shooting, all they are asking for is a really good copy of the photos you took for them, which they are prepared to pay for, whats the problem?
As matty said, one week turnaround for lens calibration, but you need it, so cant be that bad if you are prepared to still use it.
Bite the bullet mate and send them fresh copies.

ps no harm was intended in this thread, it is purely my view, right or wrong..
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I've had issues with this lens on other shoots now. I wouldn't say it was a bad days shooting and me making excuses as I do believe this lens has proven to have a fault. I do agree that with providing them great quality photos but they're looking at the images at 100% crop and complaining. Now unless I was shooting with top notch L glass, you would get soft images at 100% with most lenses. That can't be helped, its just the lens. They hired me based on web quality work which has been viewed at like 25% zoom. I sharpened the images and I'm fairly sure you wouldn't see the noise on the final print. I've already knocked £200 off their price for the processing. I'm just feeling like its all going wrong. Yes I'm partly to blame but through the viewfinder everything looked spot on. How was I supposed to know? The lens had been working well up till then. Viewfinder, lcd looked great.

dazzajl said:
Please don't take this as being disparaging Pete, as like the others here I'm well aware that you are a good photographer.

In this case though, you've supplied less than perffect images to a client and that sadly, is that. It may well be that your shots would look OK at a small size but when you take money to shoot to order you need to hit the bullseye every single time.

If you have a lens (or any part of your kit) that isn't 100% reliable, get shot of it right now. You're reputation is far more fragile and worth far more than any single piece of kit and more importanly, you won't be able to feel creative if you're constantly worried about something letting you down.

This is a bloody hard and cut throat industry to work in these days and with the perception that anyone can shoot with a digi SLR, you need to be at the top of your game all the time and re-prove shoot after shoot why you're worth £££'s a day.

I personally think you should offer to re-shoot anything of even remotely questionable quality. It really is that important to keep every client happy. Also, getting it sorted asap and knowing the client is happy will make sure this doesn't start to eat at your confidence in yourself to provide images of outstanding quality.
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From what I was shown, they're going to be less than A5 sized prints. Even if they are soft at 100% they should still be fine at that size. I figured that they were happy with the contact sheets, happy with the web sized previews, they were happy. As I've said, I'm a little shocked at them moaning about 100% crop softness. They had a small budget and couldn't afford anything other than what I had. No room for lens or lighting rental. A bigger budget would have provided better results.

This is the same shoot that I had the car accident on. Its not going well.

Don't forget that all these shots are straight out the camera. Of course they won't look brilliant.
 
couple more sentence's then i'll shut up, it still sounds like excuses to me, if you had issues with this lens before, then why use it?
What i find strange is, you have decided to knock off £200, sorry mate, but if i was getting that set, £200 would be way over my top offer.

just my opinion..
 
If they aren't going to use the shots for larger than A5 then there isn't aproblem and you should tell them that this is what you understood they were using the shots for anyway, but if they want them for larger prints then you will have to reshoot I guess...

I have used far less quality prints than these in print before....
 
Boon said:
couple more sentence's then i'll shut up, it still sounds like excuses to me, if you had issues with this lens before, then why use it?
What i find strange is, you have decided to knock off £200, sorry mate, but if i was getting that set, £200 would be way over my top offer.

just my opinion..
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I didn't say that. I've recently had issues since this shoot with it but before this shoot it was fine. It was fine for my shots from Toronto were I used it nearly every day but in the past 2 weeks its had a few issues, starting with this shoot. I wasn't to know and I thought I was using the best kit I had. The focusing was spot on in the viewfinder and the results in the LCD were perfect too. Not even a pro of 20 years would know better.

£200 was knocked off the processing fee. This was not what I gave them. These were straight from the camera previews so they could pick which photos they wanted based on the composition. These were not the final edits. The final edits were sharpened in Photoshop. Then the client looked at them and complained because they could see noise at 100% crop.

http://www.petemc.net/mocha/2/

Those are the shots I gave them with the background mostly edited out. They said they were going to do it but I decided to as a favour.

Marianne said:
If they aren't going to use the shots for larger than A5 then there isn't aproblem and you should tell them that this is what you understood they were using the shots for anyway, but if they want them for larger prints then you will have to reshoot I guess...

I have used far less quality prints than these in print before....
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Exactly. I was shown a preview of it and the guy in the image wasn't any bigger than A5 so from my point of view the images would be perfectly fine. Hell, given that the company using them for their prospectus previously used a crappy digital camera and rubbish images mine are far better.

I am annoyed with the results. Yes I was hoping the client wouldn't notice because based on what they were using them for, why should they have? They were fine up until looking at them at 100% which imho isn't good for anything with regards to this project.
 
LOL. Pete's taking some stick here, and at least he's had the nads to show the pics. He's admitted he made a mistake, and we can all do that....I have. ;)

However would you honestly expect not to receive any comment about some of those softer images if you posted them in Sharing here let alone in Critique? I don't think so, so why should you expect a paying client to accept them without question?

When you start charging for your services, it's a different ball game altogether! :shrug:
 
CT said:
LOL. Pete's taking some stick here, and at least he's had the nads to show the pics. He's admitted he made a mistake, and we can all do that....I have. ;)

However would you honestly expect not to receive any comment about some of those softer images if you posted them in Sharing here let alone in Critique? I don't think so, so why should you expect a paying client to accept them without question?

When you start charging for your services, it's a different ball game altogether! :shrug:
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Yeah I know. I would never post them in the Sharing or Critique forums as they weren't the final results. I knew they were soft, and I told the client not to worry about them as I would sharpen them up. They were the previews that the client was happy with. Now they're complaining about them being a bit noisy at 100%. I'm not going to OTT am I?
 
if they need processing up Pete then do it, make them look better for them, presentation is everything!
 
oh send the photos to CT's emergency clinic...he's not too expensive i reckon! :naughty:
 
I own and operate a few businesses Pete and can reiterate what some have already said above....your reputation is important. I would do anything and keep the client really happy.

One of my businesses relies mostly on word of mouth and even if I am out of pocket to keep a client happy I know I will win even more business through a professional approach.

As a result of this approach my paid advertising is now virtually non-existent.

I don't know how busy you are or how valuable your time is but, if it were me, I would put the extra hours in to ensure this client leaves feeling really special.

I thought a few of the images were not quite sharp. Unsure why you used f2.8 for all these images?

Just my thoughts on what may be helpful. Hope you get it sorted for your benefit.
 
honestly, they look fine, this last lot are really fine IMO of course ;)
 
the processed ones should be more than adequate. If they have given you something in writing to say brochure a5 then tell them to do one!
 
Not even a pro of 20 years would know better.
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You've certainly learnt that lesson the hard way but it's a good one. You just cant check for critical focus on a camera lcd.

The main complaint of snappers using £25k digibacks is that the screens are lousy and need to be improved and on a digi SLR made with a fraction of the spend, it's a hopeless task.

I do understand that they stated a certian use and had a pathetic budget but this so often happens with jobs like that. They are happy to say we only need this or that when it comes to getting the price down but it all changes after the shoot.
 
Brains said:
I own and operate a few businesses Pete and can reiterate what some have already said above....your reputation is important. I would do anything and keep the client really happy.

One of my businesses relies mostly on word of mouth and even if I am out of pocket to keep a client happy I know I will win even more business through a professional approach.

As a result of this approach my paid advertising is now virtually non-existent.

I don't know how busy you are or how valuable your time is but, if it were me, I would put the extra hours in to ensure this client leaves feeling really special.

I thought a few of the images were not quite sharp. Unsure why you used f2.8 for all these images?

Just my thoughts on what may be helpful. Hope you get it sorted for your benefit.
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Honestly, I don't know why I did either. Actually, I guess its what with having just been in a car accident and stressed about doing the shoot I just set it to f/2.8 and off I went.

The thing is, its bloody tricky trying to do all this. I dropped £200 off this job to please the client and get the job. I crashed my car trying to get there ;) No I wasn't rushing for this job before anyone says. I was stressed and nervous. I bought a new flash and lightsphere for this job. I'm currently doing all this work at no extra charge. At the end of the day is my rep going to be "cheap and nasty?" "cheap but gets there eventually?" I'm just no good at this business crap tbh. Yes I want to please the, but at the same time I want to be firm and not seem like a push over. Where do I go?
 
Pete......
If your not happy (really 100% happy) with your images is there not an option to go back and do another hour or so's worth of shoot ??
Would give you the benefit of correcting all the issues hear and let you show what sort of images you are (more than) capable of ?? oh and to set up the camera and lights not using f2.8:gag: :D It's something I would consider, although I'm not aware if you had your own lights or were using there's etc etc... (Ok just seen your post above)

I know your gonna come back with the I'll be out of pocket line but in the early stages of building up a photographic business surley your reputation is worth more than the profit on this one particular shoot ??

One question I've asked myself on this issue of 'they look alright at A5' - If the clients paying what should stop him from thinking "I'll have a few of these blown up to A1 for some (say) poster advertising etc etc ?? After paying wouldn't it be his choice after all ?? (sorry if the deal was done specifically on a certain size image to be produced)

Hope all works out for you whichever way it goes :thumbs:
 
Where do I go?
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You sit down and work out how much you need to spend to get the kit you need to get it right first time, every time and find a way to make that happen.

Then you work out how much you need to charge to allow you the time to provide results you're happy with.

Then... and this is the most important bit. You don't take jobs for less than that which result in a need to compromise your quality.
 
petemc said:
I'm just no good at this business crap tbh. Yes I want to please the, but at the same time I want to be firm and not seem like a push over. Where do I go?
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In honesty Pete what you have is a dissatisfied customer and that can be costly. It doesn't matter if you charged a premium or did the job for free. At the end of it he/she is unhappy with the results even though it may appear to be unreasonable in your view

That leaves you with a couple of choices.

1. Tell them the shots are fit for purpose and live with the bad PR
2. Sit down with him, agree exactly what is required, and reshoot to that spec.

Both have upsides and downsides. First leaves you with him badmouthing you to every one. Second leaves you a bit down on time but hopefully with your rep intact.
 
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