Won't work for free.

jonbeeza

jonbeeza

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A little while ago a person who I knew asked me to take some photos for him, and I did. He wanted me to take photos of his motorbikes, that he was listing for sale.
He said," I know you like taking photos, so will you take some photos for me?".

I was there for ages taking photos of his bikes, I then had to edit the photos then give them to him. It did not feel like photography as a hobby, it felt like work.
He then asked me again, would I take photos of all the motorbike parts that he had broken up. Again this was so he could list them for sale. Again this did not feel like I was doing a spot of photography for fun, but it felt like I was working for free.

He asked me again not that long ago, would I take some photos of his bikes again. I told him I did not have the time to do it anymore, and I suggested he does it himself with his phone.

It is really annoying, when people take the p**s...


What reminded me of the above, was the cheeky weather man this morning. he said, "please keep sending in your photos".
 
jonbeeza said:
A little while ago a person who I knew asked me to take some photos for him, and I did. He wanted me to take photos of his motorbikes, that he was listing for sale.
He said," I know you like taking photos, so will you take some photos for me?".

I was there for ages taking photos of his bikes, I then had to edit the photos then give them to him. It did not feel like photography as a hobby, it felt like work.
He then asked me again, would I take photos of all the motorbike parts that he had broken up. Again this was so he could list them for sale. Again this did not feel like I was doing a spot of photography for fun, but it felt like I was working for free.

He asked me again not that long ago, would I take some photos of his bikes again. I told him I did not have the time to do it anymore, and I suggested he does it himself with his phone.

It is really annoying, when people take the p**s...


What reminded me of the above, was the cheeky weather man this morning. he said, "please keep sending in your photos".
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Are you a professional photographer? Your post seems to suggest not?

Why would he pay you? Could you even have taken payment, are you registered with HMRC etc.?
 
f/2.8 said:
Are you a professional photographer? Your post seems to suggest not?

Why would he pay you? Could you even have taken payment, are you registered with HMRC etc.?
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter if he is professional or not, it should still be paid work.
The even better advice would have been for the motorbike person to either get a proper professional photographer, or if he only wants really basic snaps because he is just listing some parts on ebay etc. that he gives a chance to a junior photographer, paid of course.
Or he shoots them himself.
 
So he asked you to work for free, you worked for free, now you are complaining about working for free?

Maybe don’t work for free if you don’t want to.
 
@jonbeeza If he was a real mate and he was just selling a few bits I'd probably do it for a bottle of red :)

If he was aiming to make money on a regular basis he'd have to pay me

The weatherman thing is a bit different to me - its often a shot just showing the day's weather and has no value other than that, and many folk love to have a shot shown on telly even where they are clearly just a phone snap. Nothing wrong with that

My gripe is the nicely shot, well-edited, ones people show were printed (without payment) in papers or worse, photo magazines, as these people are making money from the tog's efforts

BTW - HMRC aren't interested in small amounts of one-off incomes, so unless it was regular you don't need to register nor pay a bit of tax (if any was due, which it wouldn't be when costs are taken into account). It costs HMRC more to set up an account than they'd make, and they do run it more as a business now

Dave
 
AFAIK I recall you only(?) need to declare turnover of above £1000 to HMRC.....note turnover not profit.

As for @jonbeeza 's friend.....a one off is one thing but to be asked again & again is taking advantage! At the very least as suggested above there should be a quid pro quo of something he would appreciate?
 
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Not photography but years back I was always being asked to wire something up or fix something as a favour. I eventually stopped just before I quit work as I just honestly didn't have the time.

"Yup. I'll happily give up my Saturday to wire up your extension / fix your thing for free..."
 
If you want money, it's important to say up front, or misunderstanding is inevitable. That's why contracts were invented. The obvious thing in the case of people who don't show their gratitude voluntarily, or if asking for money seems inappropriate is to ask a favour in return. I'm all for the cashless economy. I fixed a guys watch, he did me a man+van job. Perfect.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
There's a difference between doing someone a favour for free and it then becoming a regular thing...
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Yeah but just say no if you feel they are taking the Mick. Dont do it then moan about it is my point.
 
I've shot loads for free for people I know over the years, but I agreed to do so beforehand, if I wanted paying I'd say so straight up. I shot promo pics for example, for a few local bands, they'd throw me tickets to their gigs so I could get some live shots and I'd do a 'studio' session to boot [I'm not a pro by any means, we'd throw together a set up and just roll with it. A lot of that work was used on their EP/Album covers, on their websites and social media pages etc ... I was happy to see the images used and never once felt I was hard done by - because I'd agreed to do it for free - in some cases I was asked back but for pay, in fact any time I've ever done seconds I was paid and it often lead to other paid work

You mate does sound like he's taking the pee, but the onus is on you to state you are charging before ever agreeing to do the shoot. You should've said it from the off, 'first one's on me, but you'll pay up for future shoots' - it is that simple.
 
DG Phototraining said:
BTW - HMRC aren't interested in small amounts of one-off incomes, so unless it was regular you don't need to register nor pay a bit of tax (if any was due, which it wouldn't be when costs are taken into account). It costs HMRC more to set up an account than they'd make, and they do run it more as a business now

Dave
Click to expand...


That isn’t correct. My neighbours son was investigated by HMRC. His mate has a pizza shop and his delivery driver was sick. My neighbours son helped him out for 3 days making a grand sum of £46.

Someone reported him to HMRC and they actually investigated it.
 
I suppose the lesson to be learned here is next time it happens

ask in detail what they want done and then send them a quote

With regards to the weather man, the average Joe that sends a picture into something like this is simply over the moon that one of their shots has been featured on TV . I don't think its a real threat to pros. The TV station gets to use images and the photographer gets to tell mates in the pub that his images have been on TV so he's starting to make it big!!!!!!
 
It is easy to get drawn in. Many years ago the MD of the company my wife worked for wanted photos taken at company social events; he did offer me a fixed fee for taking the photos plus providing a small set of prints for the publication. I could charge staff member for additional prints as requested. I was not keen but did it anyway. After a while I decided not to continue and suggested that he paid a local professional. My reasons were that photography was a hobby for me and this extra work was not welcome and I had full time employment that paid better; also I did a have a slight concern that this was denying work to a local professional (one of which was a friend of mine). He accepted this and employed a professional but 6 months later he requested me again because the event was important and no professionals would take the job as it was a bank holiday. I found this surprising so initially still said no. He pressurised my wife and said it was important and money was no object. I jokingly said to her tell him it is 3 times what he previously paid and he agreed. At the event, the local press chief photographer was present and I was embarrassed as I knew him but explained why I was there. He was very kind and offered me some helpful tips and he was always a photographer that I admired. After that event I refused to undertake any other paid shoot.

Dave
 
f/2.8 said:
Are you a professional photographer? Your post seems to suggest not?

Why would he pay you? Could you even have taken payment, are you registered with HMRC etc.?
Click to expand...

Nope I am not a professional photographer. If I did take payment for the photos, then I would be a professional photographer. (y) :giggle: (y)
 
TCR4x4 said:
So he asked you to work for free, you worked for free, now you are complaining about working for free?

Maybe don’t work for free if you don’t want to.
Click to expand...

No, just complaining about cheeky people. (y):giggle:(y)
 
DG Phototraining said:
@jonbeeza If he was a real mate and he was just selling a few bits I'd probably do it for a bottle of red :)

If he was aiming to make money on a regular basis he'd have to pay me

The weatherman thing is a bit different to me - its often a shot just showing the day's weather and has no value other than that, and many folk love to have a shot shown on telly even where they are clearly just a phone snap. Nothing wrong with that

My gripe is the nicely shot, well-edited, ones people show were printed (without payment) in papers or worse, photo magazines, as these people are making money from the tog's efforts

BTW - HMRC aren't interested in small amounts of one-off incomes, so unless it was regular you don't need to register nor pay a bit of tax (if any was due, which it wouldn't be when costs are taken into account). It costs HMRC more to set up an account than they'd make, and they do run it more as a business now

Dave
Click to expand...

Don't recall saying it was a mate. (y):giggle:(y)
 
If anyone is thinking of being rude or posting insulting replies to me, please don't bother. PLEASE ignore me and move on, simples. (y):giggle:(y)

Annoying members will be put on my ignore list...

Alternatively, please put me on ignore. Again simples.
 
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ALSO...

Used to like posting on here. But with the usual trouble makers always nit picking and wanting to cause trouble. But I think we all know who the trouble makers are.
Anyway, off to take some enjoyable photos in the garden. So, I am still in a very good mood. Nope, won't get to me that easy. :giggle:
 
Life lesson learnt, sadly there are people who take advantage of kind and generous people who try to help someone else.

They were obviously just using you to help them sell stuff or display stuff to friends in a good light etc.
 
jonbeeza said:
Don't recall saying it was a mate. (y):giggle:(y)
Click to expand...

You said a person you knew, I took that as being a 'mate' too, but if not then it's even easier to ask for paying IMO. I know it can be tough to charge mates, been there ... but as I said in my post if you do a freebie, state up front that any follow ups will cost.
 
f/2.8 said:
That isn’t correct. My neighbours son was investigated by HMRC. His mate has a pizza shop and his delivery driver was sick. My neighbours son helped him out for 3 days making a grand sum of £46.

Someone reported him to HMRC and they actually investigated it.
Click to expand...

The advice came from an Accountant on here years ago

Dave
 
f/2.8 said:
That isn’t correct. My neighbours son was investigated by HMRC. His mate has a pizza shop and his delivery driver was sick. My neighbours son helped him out for 3 days making a grand sum of £46.

Someone reported him to HMRC and they actually investigated it.
Click to expand...
There’s a difference, that was employment for a commercial business rather than classed as a hobby. As far as HMRC are concerned, your hobby becomes a business once your turnover exceeds the £1,000 threshold. Otherwise anyone selling on eBay on a semi regular basis would have to complete self assessment.

www.gov.uk

Tax-free allowances on property and trading income

Find out about annual tax-free allowances for property or trading income and if you qualify.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

see Trading Allowance section
 
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woof woof said:
Not photography but years back I was always being asked to wire something up or fix something as a favour. I eventually stopped just before I quit work as I just honestly didn't have the time.

"Yup. I'll happily give up my Saturday to wire up your extension / fix your thing for free..."
Click to expand...
+1 for this; I used to be 'exploited' by family members & friends who were having PC problems who expected me to build or repair their PCs for free or spend hours recovering their data for them when things went wrong. Some would donate the occasional bottle of wine if I was lucky. Now that they all seem to use tablets It's much less of a problem.........
 
f/2.8 said:
That isn’t correct. My neighbours son was investigated by HMRC. His mate has a pizza shop and his delivery driver was sick. My neighbours son helped him out for 3 days making a grand sum of £46.

Someone reported him to HMRC and they actually investigated it.
Click to expand...

And they should be doing this. How do they know without investigating if he isn't doing it (delivering) for several companies?

I do a bit of woodwork and charge for what I do, Everything I do I make a note of, and as it's a hobby I charge enough to cover my costs but have yet to make any profit.( or exceed £1000 turnover) Certainly not enough to worry HMRC. But they are welcome to come and have a look if someone reports me.

Actually thinking about it I could charge myself for taking the photo's I take to sell things.
 
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A friend who used to work for HMR&C told me that unless the recoverable debt was over 30 grand, they were unlikely to investigate businesses.
 
jamesev said:
There’s a difference, that was employment for a commercial business rather than classed as a hobby. As far as HMRC are concerned, your hobby becomes a business once your turnover exceeds the £1,000 threshold. Otherwise anyone selling on eBay on a semi regular basis would have to complete self assessment.

www.gov.uk

Tax-free allowances on property and trading income

Find out about annual tax-free allowances for property or trading income and if you qualify.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

see Trading Allowance section
Click to expand...

The £1000 is per tax year so e.g. someone with an eBay selling operation that turns over £999 every year is not of note for HMRC ~ or are they :thinking:
 
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Totally grey area , I often give advice on various media re.camera/lenses/ p.processing etc never yet asked for money , I have cleaned a few sensors for club members/ mates as well again as long as they pay for materials anything else is a gratuity . .

How many on here have had there car fixed by a local mechanic ,I know I have but would never dream of reporting them to the tax man ..

This bloody lock down really seems to have brought out the worst in people , just this morning I was reading about the increase in dash cam footage being sent in to the police , and how some have come back to bite the senders on the bum as they were at fault ...

So stay home ,stay safe ,and mind your own business ...
 
f/2.8 said:
Are you a professional photographer? Your post seems to suggest not?

Why would he pay you? Could you even have taken payment, are you registered with HMRC etc.?
Click to expand...
He provided a service.
 
f/2.8 said:
Someone reported him to HMRC and they actually investigated it.
Click to expand...

Well they wouldn't want anyone getting away with not paying UK tax would they, if they can't find someone trivial to go after they might have to look at the millions owed by Amazon and the like and that would never do.

A long time ago an acquaintance of mine died, he and his wife were quite old, and I had happened to have taken a decent picture of him a few weeks before he passed away. His wife asked me if she could have a print of the picture so I touched up the picture and printed out a nice A4 copy on photographic paper, I thought I did a nice job and she thanked me. A week later, she said could she have another copy for her daughter, OK, said I and duly printed one off. One month after that: 'Could you do me another picture that I can send to my son in Thailand'? I told her that it costs me about a quid a time to print these pictures and she answered that she didn't know that!? Did she think the tooth fairy supplied the paper and printer?I told her I would put the image on a website and she could download it as many times as she liked and then she started to get a bit prissy about it saying she didn't have a computer. I just said well the picture is there if you can get someone to do it. She hardly ever spoke to me again and didn't even offer to buy me a pint for the ones she'd already had.

Next time someone asks for that sort of thing I'll tell them up front that it costs, lesson learned.
 
DG Phototraining said:
@jonbeeza
The weatherman thing is a bit different to me - its often a shot just showing the day's weather and has no value other than that, and many folk love to have a shot shown on telly even where they are clearly just a phone snap. Nothing wrong with that
Click to expand...

Sadly that just shows a lack of understanding of media/press photography. There used to be a lot of value in sourcing weather pictures to the BBC (£150 or so per splash) before they started the 'Weather Watchers' begging system. Some people made the majority of their income from it.

There's still decent money to be made from the newspapers for weather images - especially for weather extremes. A mate of mine in East Anglia does rather well from it.

So no, it isn't different. It just means that you don't realise that you are undermining someone's income.
 
munch said:
Does providing a service automatically mean you get paid for it?
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I think we may be getting into the territory of semantics.
But no, it doesn’t automatically mean he should get paid, but is the reason he would if he was paid...
 
The fault is with you , You should have stated when the person asked you to do this that he would need to cover your time and costs and it would be £££
 
DemiLion said:
Sadly that just shows a lack of understanding of media/press photography. There used to be a lot of value in sourcing weather pictures to the BBC (£150 or so per splash) before they started the 'Weather Watchers' begging system. Some people made the majority of their income from it.

There's still decent money to be made from the newspapers for weather images - especially for weather extremes. A mate of mine in East Anglia does rather well from it.

So no, it isn't different. It just means that you don't realise that you are undermining someone's income.
Click to expand...

I stand corrected (y)

Dave
 
f/2.8 said:
That isn’t correct. My neighbours son was investigated by HMRC. His mate has a pizza shop and his delivery driver was sick. My neighbours son helped him out for 3 days making a grand sum of £46.

Someone reported him to HMRC and they actually investigated it.
Click to expand...

That's really petty! Doesn't the "someone" have anything better to do?

Also if you report something it has be investigated however small it might be.
 
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