With reference to Whitby Goth Weekend

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Bobby Canon

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Bob
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It is rapidly approaching the time of year again when the Whitby Goth Festival will be taking place. We all know what a great photographic opportunity this is for us, but I have been asked by a Whitby Goth Moderator if I could possibly spread the word among my fellow photographers about the Rector's concerns regarding hordes of photographers, and Goths alike using St. Mary's Church graveyard for photography. He has been in contact with the Parish Council and this is what he has posted, and I quote:-

"We've been talking to the parish council and they have asked that people take a little more care when posing for photographs, or asking others to, that they don't trample over graves and climb over gravestones. Since WGW began we've seen an increase in numbers, particularly of photographers and people being photographed, nothing wrong this this of course, but the sheer numbers now mean that the church yard is very often quite full of people. All that we are asking is that everyone takes a little more care and shows some respect.

Thanks!"

Unquote.

The main concern from the church authorities, is the lack of respect being shown by people draping themselves across the gravestones, and tables, and also photographers clambering all over the tombstones. I'm sure you all know what I mean. Both photographers and Goths alike must share the responsibility for this situation being allowed to develop. Personally I never go up there for precisely these reasons. Ask yourself how you would feel if you found someone draped all over your loved ones gravestone. I know I wouldn't feel happy at all about it.
I will add this link to a report in the Telegraph, which outlines the views of the Rector regarding this. I know the spelling leaves a lot to be desired, and the grammar is not what you would expect from the Telegraph, but it clearly states the Rectors concerns.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8798943/Goths-banned-from-Dracula-graveyard.html

Wouldn't it be nice, if all concerned, both Goths and photographers could act a little more responsibly this year. Please don't flame me on this one. I am only posting this as I fear if we, collectively, don't moderate ourselves, then we shall have moderation forced upon us. Surely that is not what we want.
 
Thank you for posting this.

I listened to the Church Warden and Jo Hampshire (Goth organiser) on Radio 2yesterday.

I have been to a number of Goth weekends, three of which I took photos. I have to say that last Oct there was a bit of a scrum of photographers at St Marys. What I saw concerned me but it wasn't as expressed on the Radio. A very small minority of photographers seem to be directing a few Goths as if they were paid models. The vast majority were very respectful in their behaviour both to the Goths and the venue.

I must admit I did not recognise the description given on radio by the Church Warden.

It would be a shame to loose this wonderful weekend because of unacceptable behaviour. Les McLean published a Code of Conduct and, I think, shared it with the Goths. Maybe that needs to be taken a bit further.

I must admit I'm confused. What you have posted says that we are OK to take photos, if we behave reasonably. I would agree with that. However, the media coverage (radio & newspapers) says there is an absolute ban. Also the article in the Telegrath states there are notices saying no photography. I was there last Thursday and didn't see them, so maybe not prominent. We appear to have conflicting statements. I prefer the situation you have outlined in your post but feel we need some clarification.

Not sure how this should progress.

Ken
 
I too heard there was a complete ban, maybe that was just the Sun's over radical reporting though.
 
Byker28i said:
Daily mail went overboard.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...churchyard-featured-Bram-Stokers-Dracula.html

John Hemson, the church's warden, said: 'It had become unbearable. I sat there one day and in half an hour nine photographers walked past me.

Didn't it say on the radio that the church has banned professional photographers from using the graveyard as a free set for their goth photo shoots?
Click to expand...

Is that all? I'm surprised they haven't rebranded it as "Whitby Photographer Weekend (Goths Welcome)".

I'm inclined to concur with this quote from the DM link: "Quite how the ban will be enforced remains to be seen". Go to Whitby any weekend and you'll spot more than nine photographers in half an hour.
 
Please. You'll never make a Daily Mail journalist if you ruin the story with pictures like that :D


There has to be a business opportunity here though - GothLand.
A roller coaster that goes up once, then down many times etc
 
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Bobby Canon said:
Just out of interest, here is the actual notice that has been posted.


Notice at St. Mary's Church resized 2 by Bobby Canon, on Flickr
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this.

Looks big but didn't see it last Thursday. Presumably this is on the gate at the top. Coming up the steps I didn't see it.

I remain confused as to what is seen as acceptable and have no wish to upset anyone. The notice suggests you cannot take photograohs that include the gravestones. I'm not sure that fits with what you have been told nor I suspect was the intention.

Ken
 
OK, here you go, the 'official' request:

To whom it may concern

The Churchwardens and Rector of Whitby who deal with St. Mary's Parish Church, East Cliff ask that no photographs are taken in St. Mary's Churchyard during the Goth Weekend.

Please could you convey this request to your followers. The reasons being firstly the churchyard is Hallowed Ground and many of the families of the deceased in these graves are still living in Whitby and they find the draping of people on these tombs whilst having photographs taken distasteful. Also many of the tomb stones are unsafe and could easliy fall on to people and they could be injured.

Thank you for your co-operation.

Yours sincerely,

John Hemson,
Churchwarden,
St. Mary's Parish Church.
 
Byker28i said:
Please. You'll never make a Daily Mail journalist if you ruin the story with pictures like that :D


There has to be a business opportunity here though - GothLand.
A roller coaster that goes up once, then down many times etc
Click to expand...

Would I be OK for the Sunday Sport ?
 
Bobby Canon said:
OK, here you go, the 'official' request:

To whom it may concern

The Churchwardens and Rector of Whitby who deal with St. Mary's Parish Church, East Cliff ask that no photographs are taken in St. Mary's Churchyard during the Goth Weekend.

Please could you convey this request to your followers. The reasons being firstly the churchyard is Hallowed Ground and many of the families of the deceased in these graves are still living in Whitby and they find the draping of people on these tombs whilst having photographs taken distasteful. Also many of the tomb stones are unsafe and could easliy fall on to people and they could be injured.

Thank you for your co-operation.

Yours sincerely,

John Hemson,
Churchwarden,
St. Mary's Parish Church.
Click to expand...

I do not mean to be disrespectful but this contradicts your original posting.

I am utterly confused, and I'm sure I will not be the only one.

Ken
 
Byker28i said:
Isn't that Emo's?
Goth is when you hate the world. Emo is when the world hates you?

Edit: God I'm sounding old.
Click to expand...

Beats me. :shrug:

Actually, it seems it could be associated with both, according to Wiki info:
A study published on the British Medical Journal concluded that "identification as belonging to the Goth subculture [at some point on their lives] was the best predictor of self harm and attempted suicide [among young teens]", and that it was most possibly due to a selection mechanism (persons that wanted to harm themselves later identified as goths, thus raising the percentage of those persons who identify as goths). The study was based on a sample of 15 teenagers who identified as goths, of which 8 had self-harmed by any method, 7 had self-harmed by cutting, scratching or scoring, and 7 had attempted suicide.
Click to expand...

Emo has been associated with a stereotype that includes being particularly emotional, sensitive, shy, introverted, or angst-ridden. It has also been associated with depression, self-injury, and suicide.
Click to expand...

Straying off the topic a bit there, though. :rules:
 
The study was based on a sample of 15 teenagers who identified as goths
Click to expand...

Wow massive sample!

Back on topic, it's clear the Rector would rather people didn't take pictures in the church yard as people haven't been respectful in the past. I'd find somewhere else and rest in the knowledge that it wasn't me that got a formal ban put in should people over step the mark again (which from what I have read on various posts in the past sounds quite possible).
 
maninsuitcase said:
Wow massive sample!

Back on topic, it's clear the Rector would rather people didn't take pictures in the church yard as people haven't been respectful in the past. I'd find somewhere else and rest in the knowledge that it wasn't me that got a formal ban put in should people over step the mark again (which from what I have read on various posts in the past sounds quite possible).
Click to expand...

Sensible advice and a route I would always follow, but that doesn't resolve a situation where contradictory statements are made and only photographers appear to be banned.
Ken
 
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This is the official statement from Jo Hampshire (Founder of the Whitby Goth Weekend) regarding this issue.

The official statement from Jo:-

Statement from the official Whitby Goth Weekend™

In recent months, there has been much controversy surrounding St. Mary’s Churchyard in Whitby, specifically regarding photographers asking Goths to pose for photographs on and around tombstones. Following this in July, Whitby Parish Council erected signs in the churchyard stating that photography was no longer allowed.

In some cases people have been photographed laid or even stood on tombstones, and after viewing examples of these the Whitby Goth Weekend™ contacted St Mary’s Church offering full backing to their decision. A statement was released to this effect, and this support still stands.

Although the Churchyard closed in 1861, it is Hallowed Ground and contains the tombstones of many local Whitby families who continue to this day to scatter the ashes of loved ones in the Churchyard.

The actions of this thoughtless minority are not only disrespectful, but also offensive. It is disappointing that the actions of a few irresponsible individuals have spoiled an enjoyable part of the Whitby experience for not only Goth Weekend visitors, but for every member of the public that visits the churchyard.

We intend to do all we can to stop this behaviour and will be exhibiting posters and speaking to all the photographers we encounter at our future events.

Jo Hampshire
Founder Whitby Goth Weekend™ est 1994

I know that photographers appear to be taking the brunt of this, but on the goth forums it is acknowledged that some of the Goths are also to blame. I myself have stated that it is a case of both Goths and photographers "feeding" off each other. So long as there is one Goth type posing, others will want to pose, and so long as one solitary photographer is seen taking photos, others will follow for their share of the action. I think instead of concentrating on trying apportion blame to either one party or the other, we should all get it in our heads, that the days of photographing Goths on tombstones in St. Mary's have gone. I also believe that should photographers as a group ignore these requests, we will find ourselves ostracised by the Gothic community, and have many heads turned away when we approach them with camera in hand. They will, rightly or wrongly, ulimately blame us, the photographers, for spoiling what is meant to be "their " weekend. There are already a fair number of them already feel this way. We should all think long and hard about this, and instead of trying trying to analyze the situation to find out who's feet to lay the blame at, we should all act together as a group (photographers and goths, and also fancy dress people) and try to keep the good relations we have with each other going. The easiest way to do this is quite simply to avoid the Churchyard. You may be thinking that this is getting blown out of all proportion, and it possibly is, but the fact remains that it is real, it is happening now, and the way we conduct ourselves at the next event will have far reaching ramifications regarding the relationship between photographers and Goths during future Whitby Goth Festivals. If we remain stubborn, and pretend it doesn't matter, as we have in the past, we may be killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
 
Bobby Canon said:
I know that photographers appear to be taking the brunt of this, but on the goth forums it is acknowledged that some of the Goths are also to blame. I myself have stated that it is a case of both Goths and photographers "feeding" off each other. So long as there is one Goth type posing, others will want to pose, and so long as one solitary photographer is seen taking photos, others will follow for their share of the action. I think instead of concentrating on trying apportion blame to either one party or the other, we should all get it in our heads, that the days of photographing Goths on tombstones in St. Mary's have gone. I also believe that should photographers as a group ignore these requests, we will find ourselves ostracised by the Gothic community, and have many heads turned away when we approach them with camera in hand. They will, rightly or wrongly, ulimately blame us, the photographers, for spoiling what is meant to be "their " weekend. There are already a fair number of them already feel this way. We should all think long and hard about this, and instead of trying trying to analyze the situation to find out who's feet to lay the blame at, we should all act together as a group (photographers and goths, and also fancy dress people) and try to keep the good relations we have with each other going. The easiest way to do this is quite simply to avoid the Churchyard. You may be thinking that this is getting blown out of all proportion, and it possibly is, but the fact remains that it is real, it is happening now, and the way we conduct ourselves at the next event will have far reaching ramifications regarding the relationship between photographers and Goths during future Whitby Goth Festivals. If we remain stubborn, and pretend it doesn't matter, as we have in the past, we may be killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
Click to expand...

:plusone:
 
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While I agree about the use of the graveyard as a set and the attitudes of some of the photographers I hope it doesn't stop people walking up to the church as I enjoy the climb and the view. My only concern will be that I can see camera phones and p&s popping out while only the brave/stupid would use a dslr near a gravestone. The view from the fence overlooking Whitby and the habour offers some great opportunities and I hope this will be ok I will be staying in a b&b for the weekend with my wife and hoping to get some sunrises/sunsets etc and will hope to get some shots of the Goths at some point.

Sent on my bloody phone
 
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Bobby Canon said:
This is the official statement from Jo Hampshire (Founder of the Whitby Goth Weekend) regarding this issue.

The official statement from Jo:-

Statement from the official Whitby Goth Weekend™

In recent months, there has been much controversy surrounding St. Mary’s Churchyard in Whitby, specifically regarding photographers asking Goths to pose for photographs on and around tombstones. Following this in July, Whitby Parish Council erected signs in the churchyard stating that photography was no longer allowed.

In some cases people have been photographed laid or even stood on tombstones, and after viewing examples of these the Whitby Goth Weekend™ contacted St Mary’s Church offering full backing to their decision. A statement was released to this effect, and this support still stands.

Although the Churchyard closed in 1861, it is Hallowed Ground and contains the tombstones of many local Whitby families who continue to this day to scatter the ashes of loved ones in the Churchyard.

The actions of this thoughtless minority are not only disrespectful, but also offensive. It is disappointing that the actions of a few irresponsible individuals have spoiled an enjoyable part of the Whitby experience for not only Goth Weekend visitors, but for every member of the public that visits the churchyard.

We intend to do all we can to stop this behaviour and will be exhibiting posters and speaking to all the photographers we encounter at our future events.

Jo Hampshire
Founder Whitby Goth Weekend™ est 1994

I know that photographers appear to be taking the brunt of this, but on the goth forums it is acknowledged that some of the Goths are also to blame. I myself have stated that it is a case of both Goths and photographers "feeding" off each other. So long as there is one Goth type posing, others will want to pose, and so long as one solitary photographer is seen taking photos, others will follow for their share of the action. I think instead of concentrating on trying apportion blame to either one party or the other, we should all get it in our heads, that the days of photographing Goths on tombstones in St. Mary's have gone. I also believe that should photographers as a group ignore these requests, we will find ourselves ostracised by the Gothic community, and have many heads turned away when we approach them with camera in hand. They will, rightly or wrongly, ulimately blame us, the photographers, for spoiling what is meant to be "their " weekend. There are already a fair number of them already feel this way. We should all think long and hard about this, and instead of trying trying to analyze the situation to find out who's feet to lay the blame at, we should all act together as a group (photographers and goths, and also fancy dress people) and try to keep the good relations we have with each other going. The easiest way to do this is quite simply to avoid the Churchyard. You may be thinking that this is getting blown out of all proportion, and it possibly is, but the fact remains that it is real, it is happening now, and the way we conduct ourselves at the next event will have far reaching ramifications regarding the relationship between photographers and Goths during future Whitby Goth Festivals. If we remain stubborn, and pretend it doesn't matter, as we have in the past, we may be killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
Click to expand...

Thank you Bob for clarification.

Far from analysing the situation and seeking to lay blame I have been seeking clarification as the messages appeared contradictory. I have no wish to upset anyone but merely to understand what was being requested.

I shall be there all weekend and will avoid any shots at the churchyard.

I feel the situation could have been handled better, but that's my personal opinion.

Thank you again for your input.

Ken
 
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Thanks everyone for their input and understanding of this somewhat delicate issue. It is rather difficult trying to be an intermediary :)
 
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Bobby Canon said:
Thanks everyone for their input and understanding of this somewhat delicate issue. It is rather difficult trying to be an intermediary :)
Click to expand...

I always believe in the maxim "don't shoot the messenger"

Also I don't have a Canon to do it with:lol:

Ken
 
I would lend you mine Ken, but you may not know where the trigger is on it :)
 
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