Will we stay or will we go?

[cambsno]

nope - thats just ill thought out telegraph hyperbole , which assumes taxation would reduce if we weren't paying into europe - however they can't have it both ways , if the govt is going to use the 'billions saved' for other purposes , the level of taxation will have to remain unchanged (which is likely as why would the govt willingly give money back to the populace)

so what you actually wind up with is food costing more but the average family being no better off... but that won't inspire the average family to vote for the 'out' position the telegraph supports

also the real issue with the cost of food is the supermarkets - there is a huge difference between the price a farmer sells his goods for and what the consumer pays, so even in the unlikely event that withdrawing from the cap somehow magically reduces the cost of food production (which it doesnt) there is no guarantee of any savings being passed on to the consumer.

Also the cost per household of the CAP is about £200 per year , so I suspect that the rest of the 'cost saving' of withdrawing from the CAP is made up of the dubious idea that with a freer trade we'd be able to increase food imports and thus provide ultra cheap food thus saving each household an extra £1k per year.

this is cobblers because

a) per above there's no guarantee that supermarkets would pass the cost saving on anyway
b) ultra cheap food from abroad tends to come from deregulated markets with worse animal welfare, and dubious health side effects
c) apart from it being ethically indefensible to put british farmers out of business by buying ultra cheap goods from dubious markets (which is an odd position for a party which is allegedly all about putting our country first) it also comes with a big hidden cost in rural deprivation and unemployment
d)do we really want to be in a position where we are totally dependent on a foreign power for our food ?

But... that is just theory and no different to your view on the 'Torygraph' aside from the obvious views at the other end of the spectrum. Who knows what the actual figure would be, and what governments may do. Now, they may choose to reduce the deficit by that £15bn (to use that figure as an example) but that would mean we would not have to cut some services and would do a good thing in reducing the deficit, although I would rather see some tax cuts come in, for example.

Remember the saying about statistics... I am sure the pro EU lobby can make a case using the same figs as the anti EU lobby.

 

[cambsno]

I for one think that Sepp Blatter would be an ideal President of the EU!

 

[Jim_Tod]

Do 20 something Polish Lidl workers have insurance and health plans, or when they have children who foots the bill for the healthcare and schooling of the kids....

Just catching up on this thread

Do 20 something UK Lidl workers have insurance and health plans, or when they have children who foots the bill for the healthcare and schooling of the kids?

You have a legal right to be here, you work, you contribute to society in terms of your tax and NI contributions- what does it matter where you were born?

 

[SFTPhotography]

what does it matter where you were born?

It matters when people here who try and get basic jobs who are perfectly suitable can't because someone slightly better can be imported.

Every priority should be given to British applicants. We need to look after our own people.

I find the notion that foreign workers are superior to British ones as ridiculous.

 

[Jim_Tod]

Again you miss the point entirely. The point is that all the unskilled labour we import can be done by British people. Working in Aldi isn't a specialised job that requires importing labour from abroad. Nor will the workers we import contribute much if anything to our economy because they don't earn much.

You've obviously missed the issue for the employers for years in service economies in that too many UK citizens would prefer not to be involved in the low pay element of the service sectors of the economy- I understand fruit picking and many seasonal hotel/ restaurant jobs which used to be undertaken by UK citizens are now in this position. Employers started importing labour for these jobs many years ago. Having unemployed UK citizens and having jobs available doesn't mean there's a match. Not filling the jobs just means there's fewer people paying taxes to pay for those on benefit who are incapable or unwilling to take up these posts.

 

[SFTPhotography]

You've obviously missed the issue for the employers for years in service economies in that too many UK citizens would prefer not to be involved in the low pay element of the service sectors of the economy- I understand fruit picking and many seasonal hotel/ restaurant jobs which used to be undertaken by UK citizens are now in this position. Employers started importing labour for these jobs many years ago. Having unemployed UK citizens and having jobs available doesn't mean there's a match. Not filling the jobs just means there's fewer people paying taxes to pay for those on benefit who are incapable or unwilling to take up these posts.

Cut the welfare right back and the situation you describe goes away. Basically work or starve. It'll soon catch on...

 

[Jim_Tod]

I'm sure in the cases of relatively unskilled jobs like working in a supermarket or laying bricks the best person doesn't have to come from over 1000miles. We get perfectly good staff in our Glasgow office from wait for it...Glasgow.

I work in construction- have you tried to get brickies recently. Major housebuilders now determine their year end numbers for completions and profitability of the whole business on the basis of how many brickies they have on the sites, i.e. you cant sell incomplete houses. As a nation we have failed to invest in construction training, allowing most brickies to become self employed with no incentive to train up new brickies (unless it happens to be a brickies child/ family member learning a trade- generalisation but pretty realistic position) and many of the ones we do have left around 2008 when the backside last fell out of the market. So before 2008 we had a surplus of bricklaying jobs in the housing boom and imported our eastern european colleagues to help us 'grow' our economy. After 2008 we lost a load of home grown brickies who retrained, retired or became taxi drivers, we didn't train replacements and now we're reliant upon hard working immigrants to our countries, lots from eastern europe, I also think you'll find that brickies top line is more than the average wage in the UK and therefore these should be attractive jobs but we don't appear to have enough people willing and able to do these jobs.

Much of this applies to other trades also

 

[Jim_Tod]

It matters when people here who try and get basic jobs who are perfectly suitable can't because someone slightly better can be imported.

Every priority should be given to British applicants. We need to look after our own people.

I find the notion that foreign workers are superior to British ones as ridiculous.

It's generally the case that the immigrant is already here also- legally- and usually because there is a shortfall in the market with jobs unfilled by those born here.

It appears that whilst you find the notion that foreign workers are superior to British ones ridiculous, you probably accept the corollary that British born workers are superior to foreign ones?

 

[cambsno]

It matters when people here who try and get basic jobs who are perfectly suitable can't because someone slightly better can be imported.

Every priority should be given to British applicants. We need to look after our own people.

I find the notion that foreign workers are superior to British ones as ridiculous.

Did you not read my post? Most employers will chose the best person for the job. Foreigners would only get chosen if they demonstrated better skills or behaviors. If I interview a Brit and a pole and the pole looks like they will do better, they get the job. Brits have every chance of getting these jobs.

 

[cambsno]

Cut the welfare right back and the situation you describe goes away. Basically work or starve. It'll soon catch on...

I do agree that too many people make benefits a lifestyle and prefer that getting a job.

 

[Jim_Tod]

Cut the welfare right back and the situation you describe goes away. Basically work or starve. It'll soon catch on...

Motivation for the employer then- you tried for years to employ worekrs from the UK, they didn't want the 'menial' jobs, you employed hard working people from other european countries who came and got on with it but you should now abandon these hard workers for those whose only reason to ask for a jobs isn't that they're motivated but because they've been whipped your way.

I find the notion that foreign workers are superior to British ones as ridiculous.

In respect to immigration and employers options, 'Force them to work through starving them' or 'people from elsewhere want to work' Discuss!

 

[new2me]

Basically work or starve. It'll soon catch on...

I wonder what the implications are for that: nearly 2 million adults allowed to slowly starve to death (not to mention the children that rely on them)

 

[Jim_Tod]

I believe they are undercut. Cut out the undercutting and we can get more British people working

Undercut from what, job seekers allowance?

 

[Jim_Tod]

The reality of Brits abroad is they are net contributers to the country to which the move to.

The reality of this thread is that you state your own facts, ignore evidence and won't back up your arguments other than to say 'it's obvious innit'

 

[SFTPhotography]

I wonder what the implications are for that: nearly 2 million adults allowed to slowly starve to death (not to mention the children that rely on them)

That 2million people get themselves into gear or drop off. Decisions, decisions. There will be a few casualties on the way but one must always see the greater good in drastic actions.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Undercut from what, job seekers allowance?

Wages, conditions. Plus it's never just JSA. Tax credits, child this and child that etc

 

[new2me]

That 2million people get themselves into gear or drop off. Decisions, decisions. There will be a few casualties on the way but one must always see the greater good in drastic actions.

And would other countries be happy to trade with us while putting this into practice? Or does that not matter; we'll just muddle along on our own?

 

[dejongj]

It matters when people here who try and get basic jobs who are perfectly suitable can't because someone slightly better can be imported.

Every priority should be given to British applicants. We need to look after our own people.

I find the notion that foreign workers are superior to British ones as ridiculous.

You may find it ridiculous but if they have the job then just have a think about it

Ps. This forums can really do with a dislike button.

 

[Cobra]

Ps. This forums can really do with a dislike button.

Never gonna happen

However there is this little fella :thumbsdown:

 

[dejongj]

Wages, conditions. Plus it's never just JSA. Tax credits, child this and child that etc

That the market. If supply outstrips demand than wages go down. Take a look at the steel industry, high wages and production costs make it as good as impossible to compete on a global market.

 

[dejongj]

Never gonna happen

However there is this little fella (n)

(n)(n)

 

[Cobra]

(n)(n)

Or you could always like a post just so you can unlike it?

 

[Jim_Tod]

Wages, conditions. Plus it's never just JSA. Tax credits, child this and child that etc

But your argument is that johnny foreigner gets this as well and that the good old british worker is superior- so whether it's JSA plus other benefits there's an even playing field on everything except ability and motivation- so with employers hat on

 

[Phil V]

Not sure what your problem is, but you just seem hell bent on trying to score points/splitting hairs? I'm out.

I thought my point was simple, you typed one thing in plain English, then claimed it meant something else! It's hardly point scoring. This 'fact' is right at the centre of the discussion.

If there really is a genuine cost to us of £15 billion a year only a complete knob would want to stay in. It's fundamental.

 

[Phil V]

On the contrary. It's how I see the sad direction the EU is going and how it'll drag is down.

If it was been run by someone like Marie Le Penne or Orban I'd be much more for it.

And here we are again, your Grammar skills belie your intelligence once again.

From your 'ignorance bunker' you might see some of us as snooty for this opinion, but I'm afraid if you're unable to structure the sentence correctly (notwithstanding a language barrier or dyslexia) then the likelihood of that statement being intelligent disappears.

And just for proof, your idea of a Europe run by holocaust deniers? That goes beyond daft and into the realms of troubling.

 

[SFTPhotography]

And just for proof, your idea of a Europe run by holocaust deniers? That goes beyond daft and into the realms of troubling.

Ignoring the rest of your post these politicians are the only ones who have a sensible handle on immigration into the EU.

Orban is doing great work in Hungary. Le Penne, like it or not, will ensure France remains French.

Here's a better synopsis of the situation.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/16/hungarys-viktor-orban-islam-is-rulebook-of-another-world/

 

[Phil V]

Ignoring the rest of your post these politicians are the only ones who have a sensible handle on immigration into the EU.

Orban is doing great work in Hungary. Le Penne, like it or not, will ensure France remains French.

Here's a better synopsis of the situation.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/16/hungarys-viktor-orban-islam-is-rulebook-of-another-world/

The enemy of your imaginary enemy is not necessarily your ally.

You need to get your head round the fact that just because someone says things that support your preconceived prejudices, they're not necessarily right. That's how both far right and left propaganda works.

It requires critical thinking to understand complex issues, finding a pseudo intellectual who backs up your knee jerk hatred is sad and dangerous.

 

[Ricardodaforce]

Ignoring the rest of your post these politicians are the only ones who have a sensible handle on immigration into the EU.

Orban is doing great work in Hungary. Le Penne, like it or not, will ensure France remains French.

Here's a better synopsis of the situation.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/16/hungarys-viktor-orban-islam-is-rulebook-of-another-world/

You chose to ignore the bit about them being holocaust deniers. Why? Do you really admire them given that?

 

[SFTPhotography]

You chose to ignore the bit about them being holocaust deniers. Why? Do you really admire them given that?

They've just put the holocaust into context over wider world history through the ages.

Just out of interest how many died in the Gulags? It always seems to be the holocaust that's brought up, but time moves on and it's time to draw a line in the sand under that one.

 

[SFTPhotography]

The enemy of your imaginary enemy is not necessarily your ally.

You need to get your head round the fact that just because someone says things that support your preconceived prejudices, they're not necessarily right. That's how both far right and left propaganda works.

It requires critical thinking to understand complex issues, finding a pseudo intellectual who backs up your knee jerk hatred is sad and dangerous.

What knee jerk hatred and prejudice?

Orban is right on this and the direction the EU is heading in terms of letting in Turkey, and all these "migrants" worries me.

It's why I'll end up voting to leave. What the Germans are doing right now is utter lunacy. Just look at Sweden right now and what's going on there.

Had the EU remained just the founder 11 states it just might have worked out...

 

[Phil V]

What knee jerk hatred and prejudice?

This one?

Orban is right on this ...

A simple assertion that something is right without being able to debate the reason is a sure sign that it's not a considered opinion and that someone probably hasn't considered all the evidence.

Muslamic Ray Guns spring to mind whenever you mention Islam. You don't understand the history of your own professed religion but you still think you can convince us you have an informed opinion about others. And you fail to see what this then looks like to intelligent people (or even me)

 

[SFTPhotography]

This one?


A simple assertion that something is right without being able to debate the reason is a sure sign that it's not a considered opinion and that someone probably hasn't considered all the evidence.

Muslamic Ray Guns spring to mind whenever you mention Islam. You don't understand the history of your own professed religion but you still think you can convince us you have an informed opinion about others. And you fail to see what this then looks like to intelligent people (or even me)

I'd have thought stating the reasons wasn't required as it was so abundantly obvious why. As it were I'm on an iPhone and can't be bothered spelling out the obvious and what I've said before.

You'd just say it was <insert word here> phobic.

 

[Phil V]

They've just put the holocaust into context over wider world history through the ages.

Just out of interest how many died in the Gulags? It always seems to be the holocaust that's brought up, but time moves on and it's time to draw a line in the sand under that one.

Go on then.

How many died? And you can give us a considered opinion as to why these deaths are comparable to the attempted wiping out of an entire race.

 

[Phil V]

I'd have thought stating the reasons wasn't required as it was so abundantly obvious why. As it were I'm on an iPhone and can't be bothered spelling out the obvious and what I've said before.

You'd just say it was <insert word here> phobic.

And you can't understand that what you see as 'obvious' is just your opinion, and is perhaps coloured by prejudice?

Thinking really isn't a strong point is it!

 

[SFTPhotography]

Go on then.

How many died? And you can give us a considered opinion as to why these deaths are comparable to the attempted wiping out of an entire race.

IIRC it cannot be considered the wiping out of an entire race as a) judiasim isn't a race b) even if it were, there were many Jews outside of Germany that even the German authorities knew they couldn't kill.

Again, thinking, is it such a strong point of yours.

Here's something to get your teeth into

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/mar/10/hitler-vs-stalin-who-killed-more/

 

[Phil V]

IIRC it cannot be considered the wiping out of an entire race as a) judiasim isn't a race b) even if it were, there were many Jews outside of Germany that even the German authorities knew they couldn't kill.

Again, thinking, is it such a strong point of yours.

Here's something to get your teeth into

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/mar/10/hitler-vs-stalin-who-killed-more/

I'm big on Semantics, whilst I wouldn't consider most religions to be treated as a race, Judaism is slightly different, given that more than any other religion they have a shared history, it's clear that you and a West African pastor aren't the same race despite having the 'same' faith, that's not true of most Jews.

The German authorities weren't just killing German Jews were they? They were wiping out Jews wherever they could get them, if the 3rd reich had succeeded in taking over the world, they'd have succeeded in wiping out the Jews. It's not naive to suggest 'that even the German authorities knew they couldn't kill' them all, their plan was world domination, its a lie to suggest they weren't intent on wiping them all out.

Again, it's difficult to know whether you're honestly misunderstanding this, not bright enough to comprehend it, or purposely lying to down play the holocaust.

Again though it's scary you don't see the difference (or wish to obfuscate) between ethnic cleansing and the killing of criminals and enemies of the state.

 

[SFTPhotography]

I'm big on Semantics, whilst I wouldn't consider most religions to be treated as a race, Judaism is slightly different, given that more than any other religion they have a shared history, it's clear that you and a West African pastor aren't the same race despite having the 'same' faith, that's not true of most Jews.

The German authorities weren't just killing German Jews were they? They were wiping out Jews wherever they could get them, if the 3rd reich had succeeded in taking over the world, they'd have succeeded in wiping out the Jews. It's not naive to suggest 'that even the German authorities knew they couldn't kill' them all, their plan was world domination, its a lie to suggest they weren't intent on wiping them all out.

Again, it's difficult to know whether you're honestly misunderstanding this, not bright enough to comprehend it, or purposely lying to down play the holocaust.

I don't think the third reich was going for total world take over...USA for instance. They weren't that stupid. I happen to think that whilst the holocaust is a significant event in recent times, its not the only one and its time that some context in all world history is given to it. Reparations have been made, Israel established, its time to draw a line in the sand.

Given the jewish people didn't have a country of their own for a long time, I'd argue its a raceless religion with practicioners all over the world of different races. You have Polish jews, British jews, American Jews, Jews in Israel and middle east (Semitics) etc.

 

[Phil V]

I don't think the third reich was going for total world take over...USA for instance. They weren't that stupid. I happen to think that whilst the holocaust is a significant event in recent times, its not the only one and its time that some context in all world history is given to it. Reparations have been made, Israel established, its time to draw a line in the sand.

Given the jewish people didn't have a country of their own for a long time, I'd argue its a raceless religion with practicioners all over the world of different races. You have Polish jews, British jews, American Jews, Jews in Israel and middle east (Semitics) etc.

There's a misunderstanding of 'race'.

Most of us do have a 'line in the sand' about the holocaust, and we have learned from it. What we've learned is that it's wrong to divide people based on beliefs, race, culture etc. The problem with the far right is that they want to draw a line under it so they can repeat the sins of their forebears. They think they can unpick Hitlers actions and declare that he had some good ideas but he had a bad press.

Like I said, that's very worrying.

 

[SFTPhotography]

There's a misunderstanding of 'race'.

Most of us do have a 'line in the sand' about the holocaust, and we have learned from it. What we've learned is that it's wrong to divide people based on beliefs, race, culture etc. The problem with the far right is that they want to draw a line under it so they can repeat the sins of their forebears. They think they can unpick Hitlers actions and declare that he had some good ideas but he had a bad press.

Like I said, that's very worrying.

I think thats an argument of the far left. The right wing don't want to exterminate whole races or classes, but rather control who comes in to our countries and to ensure people fit in with our ways rather than pander to the needs of the beliefs of people who are coming in.

Its like having a house guest, you wish to make them welcome, but you'd get irate if they complained about everything you did in your own home. You'd have a guest in you know you'd get along with, but not someone who is antagonistic to your ways.

Hungary and Slovenia get this. Merkel doesn't.

 

[Llamaman]

Here's something to get your teeth into

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/mar/10/hitler-vs-stalin-who-killed-more/

So, mass slaughter is OK if someone else has killed more?

That certainly gives an insight into your character.