Will This Make Cycling Safer?

Of course, there are internet warriors who like to argue otherwise. One can only hope that we never meet them in the flesh.

He is an Internet Warrior, I am a normal person.

That's how it all starts: othering.

I am a motorist, he is a cyclist. No way could that person be just like me.

Realising that is the first step to relaxing and being tolerant of others.
 
Tolerance is key for your own well being. It's also the easiest to control.
And on a slightly comical note....don't worry - the bikes will all be electric soon and rigged to go 30mph at all times and places.
 
Realising that is the first step to relaxing and being tolerant of others.
This is true.

However, I counsel against turning the other cheek, because it will only encourage the bully to strike again.
 
It makes sense for cyclists to be in some form of hi vis outfit. I used to motorcycle with dipped beam on, on a bright red bik, wearing a hi vis jacket and yellow helmet, and people still said they didn't see me. My mantra is from the old Highway Code of the 60's & 70's - SEE & BE SEEN.

Most motorcycle accidents happen because riders put themselves in a position of higher risk. Just a couple of hours with an IAM observer will give you so much more insight.
 
This is true.

However, I counsel against turning the other cheek, because it will only encourage the bully to strike again.
Cars enclosing bullies are surprisingly prevalent.
 
It makes sense for cyclists to be in some form of hi vis outfit. I used to motorcycle with dipped beam on, on a bright red bik, wearing a hi vis jacket and yellow helmet, and people still said they didn't see me. My mantra is from the old Highway Code of the 60's & 70's - SEE & BE SEEN.

Most motorcycle accidents happen because riders put themselves in a position of higher risk. Just a couple of hours with an IAM observer will give you so much more insight.
The point has been made that lights and hi-vis (which is only useful in daylight) are not a panacea.

Drivers do still not look, or anticipate, or drive according to the conditions and the distance that they can see be clear (hint - if you cannot see it is clear, it might well not be)

Victim blaming by making people dress up as Christmas trees will not stop the above happening. Enforcement of it will simply mean fewer people cycling. Which is a disaster for public health and the environment.
 
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Very well written.

Of course, there are internet warriors who like to argue otherwise. One can only hope that we never meet them in the flesh.
Some internet warriors type regarding their superiority over cyclists!
 
But why ride 3 abreast up a steep hill and hold up traffic, when if you were in single file, there would be room to safely overtake?

The only answer I can come up with, is because you can....
Are you sure they weren't 8 abreast?
 
The point has been made that lights and hi-vis (which is only useful in daylight) are not a panacea.

Drivers do still not look, or anticipate, or drive according to the conditions and the distance that they can see be clear (hint - if you cannot see it is clear, it might well not bee)

Victim blaming by making people dress up as Christmas trees will not stop the above happening. Enforcement of it will simply mean fewer people cycling. Which is a disaster for public health and the environment.
Enforcement; and there we have it.
My guess it that in police stations the length of the land, there'll be much rolling of eyes going on as officers seek clarification from up the command chain.

I don't live in a city, I live in a place of relatively narrow country lanes with every hamlet and village having a 30mph limit. I'm seeing agricultural vehicles, courier vans, horse riders, cyclists (mostly MAMILs), plenty of bikers and, at any one time, about 14.5 police officers in cars across the county.
 
So your righteous indignation (for the purpose of a forum post, if not in real life) is all about someone else getting hurt by someone else who wasn't driving to the same standard as you?

Consider for a moment that it might just be your adoption of a social meme "Cyclist without lights!!!!" We ignore worse hazards all the time without comment, this however has the connotation "Cyclists* are bad!"

(*whoever the hell they are)


I don't want to see anyone hurt and riding around at night in black with no lights (one of the few offences a cyclist can actually be done for these days) is plain stupid.
 
Enforcement; and there we have it.
My guess it that in police stations the length of the land, there'll be much rolling of eyes going on as officers seek clarification from up the command chain.

I don't live in a city, I live in a place of relatively narrow country lanes with every hamlet and village having a 30mph limit. I'm seeing agricultural vehicles, courier vans, horse riders, cyclists (mostly MAMILs), plenty of bikers and, at any one time, about 14.5 police officers in cars across the county.


14.5? Here in Devon and Cornwall, there are (IIRC) 21 traffic police in total.
 
Enforcement; and there we have it.
My guess it that in police stations the length of the land, there'll be much rolling of eyes going on as officers seek clarification from up the command chain.

I don't live in a city, I live in a place of relatively narrow country lanes with every hamlet and village having a 30mph limit. I'm seeing agricultural vehicles, courier vans, horse riders, cyclists (mostly MAMILs), plenty of bikers and, at any one time, about 14.5 police officers in cars across the county.
People voted for The Austerity Party, which cut policing. (Apparently crime is going down, well, surprise, have you tried to report a crime?) and then they voted for a Shambolic Adulterous Liar. The latter is telling us there are more police, so it wouldn’t be surprising if there are fewer.
 
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It makes sense for cyclists to be in some form of hi vis outfit. I used to motorcycle with dipped beam on, on a bright red bik, wearing a hi vis jacket and yellow helmet, and people still said they didn't see me. My mantra is from the old Highway Code of the 60's & 70's - SEE & BE SEEN.

Most motorcycle accidents happen because riders put themselves in a position of higher risk. Just a couple of hours with an IAM observer will give you so much more insight.

While it does make sense, especially with a motorbike, and as I say I personally prefer to make myself as visible as possible, it is worth examining the anatomy of an accident for a minute.

An accident happens when two or more unexpected (at least, from the perspective of the participant) events line up like the proverbial swiss cheese. At its simplest, that is one inattentive party and one party in the wrong place at the wrong time, potentially blameless. Additional parties can be involved and influence the outcome, all participants can contribute, but looking at the simple construct is quite useful.

First let's look at the innocent party, how much responsibility do you put on them? It is their choices and their ability to second guess a dumb driver that might affect the outcome. Take a car starting away from a green traffic light. Most people don't look both ways (I do) - would it be their fault if a red light jumper hit them? You'd probably say, not at all (even though they could have avoided it. How about if they accelerated quicker than normal? Does it start to be their fault that they weren't as careful as they could be? Clearly not, although equally clearly better practice on their part wouldn't have put them in the line of harm. This is the area that hi-viz on bikes comes into, and this is why tutting and expecting it falls into victim blaming.

Now let's look at the inattentive party. There is a basic responsibility on every driver to be able to control their vehicle, their potentially lethal lump of metal moving at speed. This includes being able to stop if an incident happens without hitting anything, at its most basic looking where they are going, and if they can't see slowing or stopping. That's why cars have headlights, to drive at night. That's what makes a mockery of people saying "Did you see that cyclist riding without lights? I almost didn't see them." But you did, as you should and as you can. That unlit cyclist might have been an unlit skip, you wouldn't want to run into either, and in both cases the unlit object could be regarded as contributory, but if you ran into that skip, it is fair to say that YOUR driving fell below the expected standard. Why would that be different with a bike (that is easier to see because it is moving).

Personally my mantra both cycling and driving is, don't be where the accident is going to happen. As a cyclist or motorist I'm using as much skill as I can to keep myself unharmed,
 
Indeed.

If you are going to be upset by a cyclist unlit, then you will be upset by wildlife, unlit; a fallen tree, unlit; a skip unlit; an abandoned trailer unlit; street furniture (like kerbs) unlit; debris, unlit. And so on.

And by being upset by things like this, you are not driving with Due Care and Attention. If you cannot see that the road ahead is clear, then you cannot assume that it is.
 
Indeed.

If you are going to be upset by a cyclist unlit, then you will be upset by wildlife, unlit; a fallen tree, unlit; a skip unlit; an abandoned trailer unlit; street furniture (like kerbs) unlit; debris, unlit. And so on.

And by being upset by things like this, you are not driving with Due Care and Attention. If you cannot see that the road ahead is clear, then you cannot assume that it is.
I think you are going to far there. By that logic there’d be no point in anyone having lights etc!

I mostly drive on roads without kerbs, lighting etc and have had more problems with oncoming cyclists with extraordinarily bright flickering (dynamo?) headlights than with unlit ones :(.
 
I think you are going to far there. By that logic there’d be no point in anyone having lights etc!

I mostly drive on roads without kerbs, lighting etc and have had more problems with oncoming cyclists with extraordinarily bright flickering (dynamo?) headlights than with unlit ones :(.

Depends if we are talking day or night - if you can't see a cyclist without lights and hi viz in the daytime you really shouldn't be on the road. Nightime, yes, lights help you be seen before its too late (although cycling by moonlight alone is lovely!)
 
Depends if we are talking day or night - if you can't see a cyclist without lights and hi viz in the daytime you really shouldn't be on the road. Nightime, yes, lights help you be seen before its too late (although cycling by moonlight alone is lovely!)
So is driving a car by moonlight ;).
 
But of course lights are a legal requirement already if riding at night.

At night your cycle MUST have white front and red rear lights lit. It MUST also be fitted with a red rear reflector (and amber pedal reflectors, if manufactured after 1/10/85). ... Flashing lights are permitted but it is recommended that cyclists who are riding in areas without street lighting use a steady front lamp

 
But of course lights are a legal requirement already if riding at night.



Flashing lights are permitted but it is recommended that cyclists who are riding in areas without street lighting use a steady front lamp

I gues it’s flashing rather flickering lights I‘ve been subject to on unlit roads then ;(. Very distracting!
 
if you can't see a cyclist without lights and hi viz in the daytime you really shouldn't be on the road.
That's a gross over simplification of the problems of mixing bicycles and powered traffic.

Drivers are having to make many observations, assess the circumstances and make decisions when travelling. They have to recognise hazards in seconds or less and they often have less time to make decisions than that. A cyclist is a thin object in an often hazard rich environment of cars, lorries, buses and other objects and the driver needs all the help possible to see that cyclist.

This "entitlement culture" among a very few cyclists is foolishness, for the simple reason that a cyclist in collision with apowered vehicle is going to come off worst. Moreover, those who hold such opinions are often the same people who expect pedestrians to get out of the cyclist's way as he fails to show consideration on shared pavements (as required by Rule 48 of the Highway Code).
 
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That's a gross over simplification of the problems of mixing bicycles and powered traffic.

Drivers are having to make many observations, assess the circumstances and make decisions when travelling. They have to recognise hazards in seconds or less and they often have less time to make decisions than that. A cyclist is a thin object in an often hazard rich environment of cars, lorries, buses and other objects and the driver needs all the help possible to see that cyclist.

This "entitlement culture" among a very few cyclists is foolishness, for the simple reason that a cyclist in collision with apowered vehicle is going to come off worst. Moreover, those who hold such opinions are often the same people who expect pedestrians to get out of the cyclist's way as he fails to show consideration on shared pavements (as required by Rule 48 of the Highway Code).

Its not entitlement, but if you cannot see a cyclist then you really should not be behind the wheel, regardless of how many other hazards are around. Driving is about looking ahead for risks as well as immediate area.

Plus if you had seen me on my bike you would know I am NOT a thin object :p
 
That's a gross over simplification of the problems of mixing bicycles and powered traffic.

Drivers are having to make many observations, assess the circumstances and make decisions when travelling. They have to recognise hazards in seconds or less and they often have less time to make decisions than that. A cyclist is a thin object in an often hazard rich environment of cars, lorries, buses and other objects and the driver needs all the help possible to see that cyclist.

This "entitlement culture" among a very few cyclists is foolishness, for the simple reason that a cyclist in collision with apowered vehicle is going to come off worst. Moreover, those who hold such opinions are often the same people who expect pedestrians to get out of the cyclist's way as he fails to show consideration on shared pavements (as required by Rule 48 of the Highway Code).
Lots of stereotypes in there.

Drivers are in charge of dangerous equipment. Many don't treat it as such.
 
Flashing lights are permitted but it is recommended that cyclists who are riding in areas without street lighting use a steady front lamp

I gues it’s flashing rather flickering lights I‘ve been subject to on unlit roads then ;(. Very distracting!
That's to get you attention and make sure the cyclist is seen. It sounds like they work.
 
As I understand it, it is harder to judge the distance of a flashing light. The best combination is a steady light so that distace to it can be judged, and a flashing one because drivers won’t see the steady one…
 
Its not entitlement, but if you cannot see a cyclist then you really should not be behind the wheel, regardless of how many other hazards are around.
In that case, less than one person in a hundred thousand should be drivers.

There's been a great deal of research into perception over the last hundred years or so. The military are, of course, interested in hiding themselves and in seeing through the other side's camouflage. Naturalists and biologists look at how organisms hide themselves and see throught the deceptions of their prey.

What this shows is that there are gaps in everyone's perception. That's why so many collisions occur on the road. Just as a sensible soldier wears camouflage on the battlefield, a sensible cyclist wears high vis and shows lights on the road.
 
Are you sure they weren't 8 abreast?
No just the 3.... And it happens often on country roads. It's not so bad if you're on a motorbike, they are narrower and go past most things easily, but cars are a different matter.

And if you don't wear hi vis, don't complain if you're not seen.....
 
As I understand it, it is harder to judge the distance of a flashing light. The best combination is a steady light so that distace to it can be judged, and a flashing one because drivers won’t see the steady one…
Yep. It's not legal to use a flashing light unless alongside a constant light.
 
No just the 3.... And it happens often on country roads. It's not so bad if you're on a motorbike, they are narrower and go past most things easily, but cars are a different matter.

And if you don't wear hi vis, don't complain if you're not seen.....
Well. I don't use hi-vis.

I use lights, a rear one on all the time and a front one when needed.

If a driver doesn't see me, then they are not fit to drive.
 
Well. I don't use hi-vis.

I use lights, a rear one on all the time and a front one when needed.

If a driver doesn't see me, then they are not fit to drive.

How bright and what size? They fail to see scooters half the time, so the bigger & brighter the better..... Even in my car I drive on dipped beam all the time (unless I'm using main).
 
I tested one rear light once - it could be seen 3 miles away :p
 
These are some interesting laws. I drive and cycle, my office is in the city centre. Now where possible I will always stick to the cycle lane and hand on heart always stop for red lights and such (I do see many that don't and I've called people on bikes out on it also - but I also see cars speeding up when the light turns orange). I have front and rear lights and my helmet. Trouble is the cycle lanes are full of broken glass, empty gas canisters, needles (office is Birmingham centre) and the like. With all due respect, I'm not cycling in that, not a chance. They have even put some red and white bollards up to protect the cyclists, but this appears to have stopped the street cleaners (the little van things) from cleaning up....

I would say there are just as many plonkas on bikes as there are driving cars in my experience. Don't even get me started on bus drivers that just turn the instant they indicate and haven't even looked in the mirrors.
 
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On the opposite carriageway?
Yep. Not every cyclist is hit from behind.

A car turning right and cutting across the path of an oncoming cyclist is fairly popular. There are similarly functioning lights available for the rear also.

Whether they really are as effective as the marketing makes out I don't know. But any cyclist you see with one is clearly conscious of their own safety and trying to take measures to make themselves more visible which seems contrary to what a few people here think.
 
Yep. Not every cyclist is hit from behind.

A car turning right and cutting across the path of an oncoming cyclist is fairly popular. There are similarly functioning lights available for the rear also.

Whether they really are as effective as the marketing makes out I don't know. But any cyclist you see with one is clearly conscious of their own safety and trying to take measures to make themselves more visible which seems contrary to what a few people here think.
Well they are distracting (and to some extent dazzling) the driver on the other carriageway while he’s ”noticing” them unnecessarily and it’s against the advice cited earlier :(. You can’t have it both ways.
 
With reference to front lights, I think some of them are problematic. Just wide splurges of brightness, worse than full beam car headlights.
 
Well they are distracting (and to some extent dazzling) the driver on the other carriageway while he’s ”noticing” them unnecessarily and it’s against the advice cited earlier :(. You can’t have it both ways.
What advice was that?
Yes some are excessively bright, especially when you start looking at the cheap Chinese knock offs. Also being handlebar mounted it is easy to have then angles incorrectly, they should be tilted slightly down.

There are also plenty of cars with overly bright headlights, and that's rolling out of the factory correctly adjusted. It's just another slight annoyance that there are some vehicles out there with overly bright lights, it's hardly endemic of any one mode of transport.
 
What advice was that?

Your post #178:
Flashing lights are permitted but it is recommended that cyclists who are riding in areas without street lighting use a steady front lamp
Yes some are excessively bright, especially when you start looking at the cheap Chinese knock offs. Also being handlebar mounted it is easy to have then angles incorrectly, they should be tilted slightly down.

There are also plenty of cars with overly bright headlights, and that's rolling out of the factory correctly adjusted. It's just another slight annoyance that there are some vehicles out there with overly bright lights, it's hardly endemic of any one mode of transport.
True and I suspect some don’t know how to dip them :(. Numerous 4x4 don’t help with lights probably higher than saloons (haven’t checked, but their bumpers are).
 
These are some interesting laws. I drive and cycle, my office is in the city centre. Now where possible I will always stick to the cycle lane and hand on heart always stop for red lights and such (I do see many that don't and I've called people on bikes out on it also - but I also see cars speeding up when the light turns orange). I have front and rear lights and my helmet. Trouble is the cycle lanes are full of broken glass, empty gas canisters, needles (office is Birmingham centre) and the like. With all due respect, I'm not cycling in that, not a chance. They have even put some red and white bollards up to protect the cyclists, but this appears to have stopped the street cleaners (the little van things) from cleaning up....

I would say there are just as many plonkas on bikes as there are driving cars in my experience. Don't even get me started on bus drivers that just turn the instant they indicate and haven't even looked in the mirrors.
i have never really understood the need to 'call out' another road user unless they are actually putting you in danger - my old commute route used to have a very aggressive cyclist who seemed to share the same route as me who would get really funny if i went through a light with no traffic coming from any direction - it's like a motorist who tries to 'police' the speed limit by driving at exactly 70 in the fast lane to stop anyone going faster - ironically this cyclist would 'hug' the curb when cycling and pass parked cars within inches so is hardly a safety evangelist
 
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