Will fox hunting be legal again?

Cobra said:
The more obscure ones are talked about and a "call" is made on that word and or the context that it is used.
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Cool. I'm off to google insults in Esperanto.
 
ghoti said:
This discussion is still within the public forum. Like I said, we're adults, people should be granted the dignity of being treated like adults
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Absolutely :thumbs:
ghoti said:
I'm happy to have robust and powerful debates and to disagree vociferously without making enemies.
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Its just a shame that more people don't think that way TBH ;)
 
Rapscallion said:
That was never the argument Munch. What was said is that having wealthy parents often gives the children an advantage in life. Or have I misread your post?
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No it was aimed more at ghoti's posts.

Perhaps my post should have read more along the lines of having a wealthy uncle taught me that you can succeed if you work hard. I believe I have achieved that, although I started my early life in a terraced house with an outside bog and a tin bath. What gives people the advantage in life is having loving and supportive parents and the role models to look up to. I will quantify that by saying I am not by any means wealthy, but again I do not measure success purely on money. which seems so many threads on here seem to boil down to.
 
munch said:
No it was aimed more at ghoti's posts.

Perhaps my post should have read more along the lines of having a wealthy uncle taught me that you can succeed if you work hard. I believe I have achieved that, although I started my early life in a terraced house with an outside bog and a tin bath. What gives people the advantage in life is having loving and supportive parents and the role models to look up to. I will quantify that by saying I am not by any means wealthy, but again I do not measure success purely on money. which seems so many threads on here seem to boil down to.
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I don't think I've said anything to suggest that the wealthy will always succeed and the poor will always fail. My argument is that there is not a level playing ground. I don't believe that everyone is destined for greatness. Some people will always fail, yes. Some poor, some rich. What I am saying is that poor people are more likely to fail regardless of their merit. The poor are playing the game of life with the difficulty level on "hard". You have a comfortable background with a bit of expendable income, you're not playing on "hard". If you're poor, you have to do more, you have to work harder for you rewards. If you truly want a meritocracy (where people occupy roles based solely on merit) then we need to stop inheritance. That's not what I believe, but it's the obvious corollary of the idea that all reward must be earned through "hard work".
 
Llamaman said:
Cool. I'm off to google insults in Esperanto.
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I could recommend Papiamento, then again it is so chilled that you won't find anything nasty in that language dushi :kiss:
 
ghoti said:
I don't think I've said anything to suggest that the wealthy will always succeed and the poor will always fail. My argument is that there is not a level playing ground. I don't believe that everyone is destined for greatness. Some people will always fail, yes. Some poor, some rich. What I am saying is that poor people are more likely to fail regardless of their merit. The poor are playing the game of life with the difficulty level on "hard". You have a comfortable background with a bit of expendable income, you're not playing on "hard". If you're poor, you have to do more, you have to work harder for you rewards. If you truly want a meritocracy (where people occupy roles based solely on merit) then we need to stop inheritance. That's not what I believe, but it's the obvious corollary of the idea that all reward must be earned through "hard work".
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And there you go again...What has a government governance structure to do with inheritance of say from me to my children. The two aren't mutually exclusive....Although I would prefer less government and governance...But notwithstanding that, it is possible to have a meritocracy and allow inheritance......just not in the seat of governance. I'm quite happy with that...
 
dejongj said:
And there you go again...What has a government governance structure to do with inheritance of say from me to my children. The two aren't mutually exclusive....Although I would prefer less government and governance...But notwithstanding that, it is possible to have a meritocracy and allow inheritance......just not in the seat of governance. I'm quite happy with that...
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Are you happy with idea that people can have money/resources/opportunities that they haven't earned?
 
dejongj said:
I could recommend Papiamento, then again it is so chilled that you won't find anything nasty in that language dushi :kiss:
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A few foreign friends & acquaintances assure me that the Brits have the monopoly on all the best swear words :thumbs:
 
Cobra said:
Its just a shame that more people don't think that way TBH ;)
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I'm a big girl. I don't feel the need for protection against others opinions. Bring them on. I'm mature enough to have a tooth & nails debate without feeling genuine ill-will to the people I'm debating with. The best thing about throwing yourself into free debate is that it challenges your own point of view.
 
You haven't read/understood my post my life started off far from "comfortable" and we certainly didn't have much expendable income, what my parents did was work hard to get themselves out of the situation they were in. As my uncle did and nearly all of my mothers side of the family did. My fathers parents worked hard as did my father. His brother took the other approach of expecting society to owe him a living. I too have worked hard to get where I am not physically like my mum and dad did, but have still had to put the effort in. I don't want meritocracy I want/have got to the stage where I am comfortable in my life and may be able to help my daughter by her own house and yes some of that money has come from losing both my parents. (I actually wouldn't rather have my parents alive as both of them had illnesses where they would never had got better from and could have just lingered on in pain, know if we could have gone back to before their illnesses that would be different) Surely that is what you want is to pass on something to your children/relative/friends.

Perhaps we need to define wealthy, you see part of the problem is not how much you earn but what you do with it. There was a bloke that seemed to follow dad from job to job so earned about the same as dad. but he was down the pub most nights and liked to have the odd gamble. When he died earlier this year his son had to pay for his dads funeral as there was nothing in the estate apart from debts.
 
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ghoti said:
Are you happy with idea that people can have money/resources/opportunities that they haven't earned?
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Absolutely, happens all the time. Can't see an issue with that, it is how living creatures act and behave. Resistence is futile. You know what, I really enjoy unconditional giving. So why would someone who is receiving feel not worthy? That doesn't make any sense.

Cobra said:
A few foreign friends & acquaintances assure me that the Brits have the monopoly on all the best swear words (y)
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Oh I don't know, I prefer the sound of; Hondelul to its English version.
 
munch said:
You haven't read/understood my post my life started off far from "comfortable" and we certainly didn't have much expendable income, what my parents did was work hard to get themselves out of the situation they were in. As my uncle did and nearly all of my mothers side of the family did. My fathers parents worked hard as did my father. His brother took the other approach of expecting society to owe him a living. I too have worked hard to get where I am not physically like my mum and dad did, but have still had to put the effort in. I don't want meritocracy I want/have got to the stage where I am comfortable in my life and may be able to help my daughter by her own house and yes some of that money has come from losing both my parents. (I actually wouldn't rather have my parents alive as both of them had illnesses where they would never had got better from and could have just lingered on in pain, know if we could have gone back to before their illnesses that would be different) Surely that is what you want is to pass on something to your children/relative/friends.

Perhaps we need to define wealthy, you see part of the problem is not how much you earn but what you do with it. There was a bloke that seemed to follow dad from job to job so earned about the same as dad. but he was down the pub most nights and liked to have the odd gamble. When he died earlier this year his son had to pay for his dads funeral as there was nothing in the estate apart from debts.
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Like I've said, I have no problem with the idea of wanting to pass something on to your family. I'm not against the idea of inheritance. What sticks in my craw is the idea fact that people who tell us that all of our rewards should come from hard work are also so keen on the idea of inheritance, It's an innate hypocrisy. I don't want a meritocracy (for complex reasons that it would take a separate debate to go into) but if you're (I'm not talking about "YOU" you, I'm talking about the "royal you"...) spouting the idea that people should achieve from their own backs then put your money where your mouth is and eschew inheritance. Because inherited wealth creates massive disparities in advantage. People with inherited wealth - even small amounts of "wealth" - need to stop kidding themselves that they didn't get a help up the ladder.
 
dejongj said:
Absolutely, happens all the time. Can't see an issue with that, it is how living creatures act and behave. Resistence is futile. You know what, I really enjoy unconditional giving. So why would someone who is receiving feel not worthy? That doesn't make any sense.
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That's good. I agree. That's why I support a strong welfare state. I don't agree that people who are receiving should feel "not worthy". I feel that individuals should acknowledge and appreciate the help that they have received which they have not worked for - be it from the state or from inheritance or from family connections. I feel that the welfare state should go some way (if not completely) to levelling the playing field so that all participants in our society can enjoy opportunity, contribution, reward.
 
ghoti said:
Like I've said, I have no problem with the idea of wanting to pass something on to your family. I'm not against the idea of inheritance. What sticks in my craw is the idea fact that people who tell us that all of our rewards should come from hard work are also so keen on the idea of inheritance, It's an innate hypocrisy. I don't want a meritocracy (for complex reasons that it would take a separate debate to go into) but if you're (I'm not talking about "YOU" you, I'm talking about the "royal you"...) spouting the idea that people should achieve from their own backs then put your money where your mouth is and eschew inheritance. Because inherited wealth creates massive disparities in advantage. People with inherited wealth - even small amounts of "wealth" - need to stop kidding themselves that they didn't get a help up the ladder.
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EVERYBODY gets help....I remember friends of mine got grants when going to Uni, I didn't because my parents were to 'wealthy'. Yet I didn't get support from my parents either, they told me to get a job....How does that work in your narrow world? Same is happening today in the UK, there is lots of help available. Just look at the excellent tuition fee scheme, don't have to pay it back unless it paid back to you, fantastic help and support.
 
ghoti said:
That's good. I agree. That's why I support a strong welfare state. I don't agree that people who are receiving should feel "not worthy". I feel that individuals should acknowledge and appreciate the help that they have received which they have not worked for - be it from the state or from inheritance or from family connections. I feel that the welfare state should go some way (if not completely) to levelling the playing field so that all participants in our society can enjoy opportunity, contribution, reward.
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I might support an even stronger welfare state, however my version is strictly time-limit in the sense of a safetynet to allow people not to fall to the bottom unlike what is happening currently...

However, all nice and interesting, but what about those cute little foxes...Are you going to join us in a hunt?
 
dejongj said:
EVERYBODY gets help....I remember friends of mine got grants when going to Uni, I didn't because my parents were to 'wealthy'. Yet I didn't get support from my parents either, they told me to get a job....How does that work in your narrow world? Same is happening today in the UK, there is lots of help available. Just look at the excellent tuition fee scheme, don't have to pay it back unless it paid back to you, fantastic help and support.
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You did okay, yeah? I worked through uni too, three evenings a week and full time at weekends, but that's not the point. The cumulative effects of poverty go beyond just "who can pay for uni". Look at that first cartoon I posted (http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate). It really is painfully true. People are slaves to circumstance. I believe it is in our humanity to try to act against that. Not just paying for people to go to uni but investing heavily in underprivileged communities. Protecting workers rights so workers can raise families without being tied to the mill. Creating fantastic social services so that the disenfranchised can get the help they need. Urban regeneration. And if a few "scroungers" slip through the net, so what? The money we lose to benefit "scroungers" is a pittance compared to that lost to tax avoiders.
 
dejongj said:
Oh I don't know, I prefer the sound of; Hondelul to its English version.
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Google seems to be in turmoil over that, there appears to be 3 meanings ;)
Bast.
Rissole
and SOB
So which is it?
Purely in the interest of research of course :D
 
Cobra said:
Google seems to be in turmoil over that, there appears to be 3 meanings ;)
Bast.
Rissole
and SOB
So which is it?
Purely in the interest of research of course :D
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None of them, you must work harder :P
 
ghoti said:
You did okay, yeah? I worked through uni too, three evenings a week and full time at weekends, but that's not the point. The cumulative effects of poverty go beyond just "who can pay for uni". Look at that first cartoon I posted (http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate). It really is painfully true. People are slaves to circumstance. I believe it is in our humanity to try to act against that. Not just paying for people to go to uni but investing heavily in underprivileged communities. Protecting workers rights so workers can raise families without being tied to the mill. Creating fantastic social services so that the disenfranchised can get the help they need. Urban regeneration. And if a few "scroungers" slip through the net, so what? The money we lose to benefit "scroungers" is a pittance compared to that lost to tax avoiders.
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No, no, no .... you've totally lost me now. I think people are much, much better, than slaves to circumstances. I don't agree with any of that.
 
dejongj said:
No, no, no .... you've totally lost me now. I think people are much, much better, than slaves to circumstances. I don't agree with any of that.
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Of course people are "better than that". The fact that cotton slaves in Texas in the 1800s were slaves to circumstance didn't stop them being "better than that". The fact is that people are in self-perpetuating cycles of poverty that it is very difficult to escape.
 
No still not buying that either, it is easy to escape there is plenty of free help and support available. It is a choice, a free choice, no excuses.

Anyway, how about those foxes......
 
If fox hunting is legalised, where do urban foxes stand with regards to being killed for fun?
 
Phil V said:
You do understand that makes as much sense as the religious right who claim gay marriage makes them a victim. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Fox hunters managed to hold onto a barbarous pastime well beyond reasonable purely because some of them were the upper classes. They're not being victimised for being posh. They're having their medeival behaviour curbed in the same way that the lower classes had to some time ago. Cock fighting and badger baiting were working class pursuits that came to an end when 'animal welfare' became a political issue. Fox hunting didn't suffer the same fate long ago purely because of it's links with the powerful.

Well now the powerful are no longer the landed gentry (though they can still buy some privilege), this isn't hunters (of whatever class) being attacked, this is simply a case of their behaviour being brought into line with the rest of us.

If I'm reported being cruel to any animal, it doesn't take a new act of parliament, the law is fairly straightforward. The only real question is how comes fox hunting was allowed long after any form of animal cruelty was outlawed?
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You do know that some religious groups will be uncomfortable doing same sex marriage ceremonies and it could be construed as a breach of human rights on the grounds freedom to practice religion isn't being granted.

I'm not really bothered either way however on that issue. Whilst the church has been vilified in the gay marriage thing as a hate organisation behind with the times there are other religious groups in other countries that still execute gay people yet they've not been subject to the same wrath...make of that what you will. I suspect that the gay marriage rights was as much a campaign for equality as it was a campaign against traditional Christian/Anglican family families.

You may ask why fishing and other blood sports are still allowed, and that's because they aren't toff sports.
 
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ST4 said:
You may ask why fishing and other blood sports are still allowed, and that's because they aren't toff sports.
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What "other" blood sports are still allowed in the UK?
 
ghoti said:
It's your money, not your kids' money. I've nothing against inheritance, but if you think inheritance is important then don't, with the other hand, claim you want everyone to achieve based solely on merit. Inheritance and nepotism are ant-merit. You're not building a meritocracy by handing privilege to your heirs, you're building an aristocracy.
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No, your passing on to your loved ones. Should successful people not try and give their children an advantage in life. Should they leave their entire estate to the government? They've paid income tax etc, upto them who they pass it on to. IHT is a tax on tax, and an appalling one at that.

Wealth distributes itself, one generation might drink it all away and make a pub landlord rich.
 
What is "gushing?"
 
new2me said:
If fox hunting is legalised, where do urban foxes stand with regards to being killed for fun?
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Around the corner?


Sorry couldn't resist. I think it would be fun doing an urban fox hunt. Might brake a few fences and damage cars unfortunately.
 
ST4 said:
Stupid iPhone. Hunting. Deer stalking etc

Hopefully we will get bull fighting in the uk soon too.
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Considering some Matadors get £100K per fight, there seems to be good business in it.
 
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ST4 said:
You do know that some religious groups will be uncomfortable doing same sex marriage ceremonies and it could be construed as a breach of human rights on the grounds freedom to practice religion isn't being granted...
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But the law doesn't force anyone to conduct the ceremony though, once again your research skills leave a lot to be desired.

ST4 said:
I'm not really bothered either way however on that issue. Whilst the church has been vilified in the gay marriage thing as a hate organisation behind with the times there are other religious groups in other countries that still execute gay people yet they've not been subject to the same wrath...make of that what you will. I suspect that the gay marriage rights was as much a campaign for equality as it was a campaign against traditional Christian/Anglican family families...
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That really is the twisted view of the world equality is a straightforward word, . Religions in this country aren't executing gay people, it's not really relevant here.

ST4 said:
You may ask why fishing and other blood sports are still allowed, and that's because they aren't toff sports.
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Really? So there's no toffs involved in fly fishing or hunting game in this country? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: They're just for the plebs.
And clearly dog fighting and cock fighting are proper toff activities. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
That sentence is just hilarious and shows the kneejerk reaction rather than any thought, it is not even research that's required, just what we call 'thinking' rather than regurgitating a Daily Mail stance. Amazing :p
 
new2me said:
If fox hunting is legalised, where do urban foxes stand with regards to being killed for fun?
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It's not about 'killed for fun' I believe if a fox is considered a pest you can still kill it. You just can't kill it with a pack of dogs.

Of course some people might find the shooting more fun than the dogs, and some might think there's no fun involved if it's not barbaric enough.
 
ghoti said:
Are you happy with idea that people can have money/resources/opportunities that they haven't earned?
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Are you?

Do you have children? Will you be leaving them house/money in your will bearing in mind they will not have earned anything?
 
cambsno said:
Are you?

Do you have children? Will you be leaving them house/money in your will bearing in mind they will not have earned anything?
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Yes, I'm happy with that. You need to go back and try to understand the point I was making.
 
ST4 said:
Plus the ticket sales VAT, income tax from the matadors, the entertainment and cultural enrichment of our society. Cannot come here soon enough.
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I'm not sure about cultural enrichment and the fit with British culture. Hey, people here get screamish when they see veal on the menu ;)
 
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