Why would I buy a Canon 5D Mark 4 (full frame) and not Canon 7D Mark 2 (APS-C)?
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Because you have more money than sense, or alternatively you prefer the image from a full frame camera than a crop?
Both are good cameras but aimed at different markets, when you say mk 4 I assume you mean 5D4?
In which case the 5D is just a better all rounder than the 7D2 imo, however the 7D3 when it appears may be better value for money and almost as good.
Both are good cameras but aimed at different markets, when you say mk 4 I assume you mean 5D4?
In which case the 5D is just a better all rounder than the 7D2 imo, however the 7D3 when it appears may be better value for money and almost as good.
HoppyUK
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Full-frame delivers better image quality, from a sensor area more than double the size of APS-C. Better sharpness, greater dynamic range, lower noise. Whether it'll be significant or not, for the work you do, is a different question. Also shallower DoF at same f/number when the subject is framed the same, from the same position - roughly one stop less. Lenses are bigger, heavier, and usually more expensive.
7D Mk2 is a faster camera though, at least on frame rate, and has more effective 'reach' with longer lenses because it puts more pixels over the subject than a 5D4 when cropped down to the same framing, hence favoured for wildlife and sport. It's also a lot cheaper
7D Mk2 is a faster camera though, at least on frame rate, and has more effective 'reach' with longer lenses because it puts more pixels over the subject than a 5D4 when cropped down to the same framing, hence favoured for wildlife and sport. It's also a lot cheaper
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What do you find limiting about the 70D?
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chouglez
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Full-frame delivers better image quality, from a sensor area more than double the size of APS-C. Better sharpness, greater dynamic range, lower noise. Whether it'll be significant or not, for the work you do, is a different question. Also shallower DoF at same f/number when the subject is framed the same, from the same position - roughly one stop less. Lenses are bigger, heavier, and usually more expensive.
7D Mk2 is a faster camera though, at least on frame rate, and has more effective 'reach' with longer lenses because it puts more pixels over the subject than a 5D4 when cropped down to the same framing, hence favoured for wildlife and sport. It's also a lot cheaper
Great reply @HoppyUK Thank you
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FWIW
I have the original 7D and though good having upgraded from the 40D I was never 100% happy with its noise and the AF just lacked a certain something.
I bought the 5D3 as wanted the FF plus it's very good noise handling sensor & the AF is better than the 7D.............................suffice to say the 7D has not been used since and that was a good while back. Yes, I lost somewhat in FPS but have noticed the lack of it sometimes...........but heh the images are plainly pleasing.
If/when I can afford the 5D4, I will for its improved AF, larger sensor, improvement in noise handling.............etc over the 5D3.
I have the original 7D and though good having upgraded from the 40D I was never 100% happy with its noise and the AF just lacked a certain something.
I bought the 5D3 as wanted the FF plus it's very good noise handling sensor & the AF is better than the 7D.............................suffice to say the 7D has not been used since and that was a good while back. Yes, I lost somewhat in FPS but have noticed the lack of it sometimes...........but heh the images are plainly pleasing.
If/when I can afford the 5D4, I will for its improved AF, larger sensor, improvement in noise handling.............etc over the 5D3.
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There was a recent post on ff v crop which is worth a read. I am not somebody who wants the latest kit, far from it, I still use a 5Di and have recently bought a XPro1 to go with my 7Dii. The later is much better than than the 7D I had in my opinion, and is my go to camera for for BIF and wildlife. However I prefer 5D for landscapes and the XPro1 for portraits, difficult to say why, I just prefer the tones. But that's me.
Unless you need all of the specs of the 5Div even the 5Diii, I would look at the original 6D if you want FF.
As others have said it depends on what your shot and also how big your want to enlarge your prints. Try before you buy if possible.
Unless you need all of the specs of the 5Div even the 5Diii, I would look at the original 6D if you want FF.
As others have said it depends on what your shot and also how big your want to enlarge your prints. Try before you buy if possible.
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I should have said, the genre that I tend to shoot are:-
Landscape & nature in general
Wildlife including birds
A little street photography ~ about the only time people get included.
Architecture and urban places.......such as Venice and other holiday destinations.
Closeup (note not true macro) for smaller critters and patterns in nature.
Lens wise ~ 24-105mm and 100-400mm, both of which I had used on the crop 7D.
Landscape & nature in general
Wildlife including birds
A little street photography ~ about the only time people get included.
Architecture and urban places.......such as Venice and other holiday destinations.
Closeup (note not true macro) for smaller critters and patterns in nature.
Lens wise ~ 24-105mm and 100-400mm, both of which I had used on the crop 7D.
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Landscape & nature in general - 5D
Wildlife including birds - 70D, for the reach, if you have the lens, it matters not.
A little street photography ~ about the only time people get included. 5D
Architecture and urban places.......such as Venice and other holiday destinations. 5D
Closeup (note not true macro) for smaller critters and patterns in nature. Either, this is lens dependent, get a 100L macro…although this is very long on the 7D, so 5D.
There's your answer.
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@Raymond Lin
Hi Raymond
The answer to whom? I was adding to slightly earlier post to some qualification to what I had offered by way of feedback to @chouglez in his OP
In regard to your reply, the only time is lack reach (the reason most and I used to rely on crop sensor) is with smaller birds.......but I have and can trust a crop on the image and still get a usable image on enough occasions to be content. A 5D4 with its 30MP vs the 22.4MP of the MK3 will improve that usability.
Oh, yes a 100mm Macro L would be nice if I can justify it in future
Hi Raymond
The answer to whom? I was adding to slightly earlier post to some qualification to what I had offered by way of feedback to @chouglez in his OP
In regard to your reply, the only time is lack reach (the reason most and I used to rely on crop sensor) is with smaller birds.......but I have and can trust a crop on the image and still get a usable image on enough occasions to be content. A 5D4 with its 30MP vs the 22.4MP of the MK3 will improve that usability.
Oh, yes a 100mm Macro L would be nice if I can justify it in future
soupdragon
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I like my 7D2 as much as my 1Dx2 mainly for the extra reach afforded but also, it only uses the lens sweet spot,
The lack of vignette/edge softness is useful.
The lack of vignette/edge softness is useful.
dave.hallett
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There are only a few reasons to prefer full frame over APS-C and they are pretty well rehearsed.
(i) You shoot detail-oriented images, (landscapes can be the classic example, although it depends on your style) and want to print large, as in bigger than 30" x 20" (although why stop at FF, why not MF for example?). Assumes you already use a tripod, etc.
(ii) Very shallow depth of field is important to you (the difference is not huge but it might be significant)
(iii) You like to shoot in low light when a tripod is not an option
(iv) You can't always frame things right in camera and want to still have enough resolution left after a significant crop (again MF is an even better answer)
(v) You have lots of money and just want to give it a try.
If none of the above apply, there are better uses for the money.
(i) You shoot detail-oriented images, (landscapes can be the classic example, although it depends on your style) and want to print large, as in bigger than 30" x 20" (although why stop at FF, why not MF for example?). Assumes you already use a tripod, etc.
(ii) Very shallow depth of field is important to you (the difference is not huge but it might be significant)
(iii) You like to shoot in low light when a tripod is not an option
(iv) You can't always frame things right in camera and want to still have enough resolution left after a significant crop (again MF is an even better answer)
(v) You have lots of money and just want to give it a try.
If none of the above apply, there are better uses for the money.
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I think @HoppyUK and @dave.hallett have it all covered.
I had a 5D3 and a 7D2. In the 7D2 (and I think the 1Dx), the exposure meter is along the side in the viewfinder. In the 5D3 (and 5D4) it is along the bottom. I got caught out a few times when I thought the exposure was fine, and in fact I was checking the exposure compensation reading, not the exposure
Stupid I know, but my 5D3 is like an old pair of slippers Not sure where it is in a 70D, and it may not be a problem for you anyway.
Amongst other things I do shoot some grass roots football. I did love the extra fps from the 7D2, but actually the 5D3 is enough for me.
Generally I just preferred the images out of my 5D3, and so I sold the 7D2 in the end.
I had a 5D3 and a 7D2. In the 7D2 (and I think the 1Dx), the exposure meter is along the side in the viewfinder. In the 5D3 (and 5D4) it is along the bottom. I got caught out a few times when I thought the exposure was fine, and in fact I was checking the exposure compensation reading, not the exposure
Stupid I know, but my 5D3 is like an old pair of slippers Not sure where it is in a 70D, and it may not be a problem for you anyway. Amongst other things I do shoot some grass roots football. I did love the extra fps from the 7D2, but actually the 5D3 is enough for me.
Generally I just preferred the images out of my 5D3, and so I sold the 7D2 in the end.
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My impression is that if you have a limited budget, and want FF image quality, you can get so close to that image quality that it's very hard to see the difference with a crop sensor camera if you spend the extra money you save on the camera body on buying a tripod (so you can keep the ISO low) and better lenses. What's more, camera sensor technology keeps improving, so today's good crop sensor camera is probably at least as good in IQ as a five year old FF.
On the other hand, if you can afford to contemplate upgrading to MF, then you could consider buying a 2nd hand full frame and waiting until an FF upgrade is available which is as good as MF is today.
The reason I settled on a crop sensor path, despite really wanting FF IQ, was that I realised that only a small minority of my photographs needed FF quality, in fact most of my photographs don't even need good crop sensor IQ, which is why I take most of my photographs with wide range general purpose handy zooms. But I do want FF IQ on special planned occasions. For those I bring my best lenses and tripod etc., and take more care than an FF shooter would need for the shot, such as using a tripod.
On the other hand, if you can afford to contemplate upgrading to MF, then you could consider buying a 2nd hand full frame and waiting until an FF upgrade is available which is as good as MF is today.
The reason I settled on a crop sensor path, despite really wanting FF IQ, was that I realised that only a small minority of my photographs needed FF quality, in fact most of my photographs don't even need good crop sensor IQ, which is why I take most of my photographs with wide range general purpose handy zooms. But I do want FF IQ on special planned occasions. For those I bring my best lenses and tripod etc., and take more care than an FF shooter would need for the shot, such as using a tripod.
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5D has a very truthful colour representation and great image quality. It is something that smaller sensors can't quite match but for some applications will get close near enough. The most obvious difference is the larger images captured by 5DIV, or even larger with 5DsR. Even the sharpness at pixel level is better so for printing huge you have to pick the right one. Also the lenses will have an original field of view on full frame, which could be only a disadvantage for shooting wildlife or long range sporting events... The frame rate is another feature that favours 7DII but 5DIV is quite reasonable.
Quite a useless thing from experience too although you learn to question everything, look at things from new angles (pun intended) and can concentrate on everything far longer and deeper than most other people... Should have studied law or economics to make money!
although do have a PhD
Quite a useless thing from experience too although you learn to question everything, look at things from new angles (pun intended) and can concentrate on everything far longer and deeper than most other people... Should have studied law or economics to make money!
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My 5D mk3 is brilliant for low light, quality of the image. I can only imaging the 5D mk4 is better.
If you're shooting everything then full frame is brilliant.
You lose reach on similar lenses not having a crop, can be a pain for wildlife, but you make up for that with a longer lens or a 1.4Tc added
With full frame you get a good wider performance from the same lenses, so walkabout, street, holiday etc is much better. Portraits etc are fantastic.
As Raymond says - get the 5D, use that for everything apart from the wildlife. Use your existing 70D for that
If you're shooting everything then full frame is brilliant.
You lose reach on similar lenses not having a crop, can be a pain for wildlife, but you make up for that with a longer lens or a 1.4Tc added
With full frame you get a good wider performance from the same lenses, so walkabout, street, holiday etc is much better. Portraits etc are fantastic.
As Raymond says - get the 5D, use that for everything apart from the wildlife. Use your existing 70D for that
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If you grew up on 35mm then lenses do what they are supposed to on FF.
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Naff all between them these days tbh outside of FOV, and if you don't tend to shoot wide a lot to begin with, there's going to be a lot of wasted space or cropping on your images.
People rattle off the same old reasons as to why FF is 'better', but how much of that 'better' is 'needed'? ask yourself that, only you can make the decision.
People rattle off the same old reasons as to why FF is 'better', but how much of that 'better' is 'needed'? ask yourself that, only you can make the decision.
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When I was upgrading from the 1D4 I chose the 5DIV. I mainly shoot wildlife with the 500mm f4 and 1.4 extender.
For me I couldn’t care less whether my camera was full frame or crop. I learnt on film, I shot 1.6 crop (10D, 20D, 40D) and then 1.3 crop (1D2, 1D4).
What mattered to me was image quality at higher ISO and for that the 5DIV beats the 7D2. My friend who i shoot with has a 5D3 and 7D2. She rarely uses the 7D2 because the higher ISO performance isn’t as good as on her 5D3.
For me there only was one choice when I upgraded the 1D4. I couldn’t justify the cost of the 1Dx2.
Do I miss the higher frame rate? A little. Is the trade off worth it for the better AF? Yes.
I was used to shooting 16mp and no higher than ISO1600. Now with 30mp and bigger files I can crop more and shoot up to ISO6400 happily.
The difference in focal length is minimal for me.
Whatever you choose enjoy your new camera!
Neil
For me I couldn’t care less whether my camera was full frame or crop. I learnt on film, I shot 1.6 crop (10D, 20D, 40D) and then 1.3 crop (1D2, 1D4).
What mattered to me was image quality at higher ISO and for that the 5DIV beats the 7D2. My friend who i shoot with has a 5D3 and 7D2. She rarely uses the 7D2 because the higher ISO performance isn’t as good as on her 5D3.
For me there only was one choice when I upgraded the 1D4. I couldn’t justify the cost of the 1Dx2.
Do I miss the higher frame rate? A little. Is the trade off worth it for the better AF? Yes.
I was used to shooting 16mp and no higher than ISO1600. Now with 30mp and bigger files I can crop more and shoot up to ISO6400 happily.
The difference in focal length is minimal for me.
Whatever you choose enjoy your new camera!
Neil
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I have those two cameras and yes, the ISO performance on the 5D3 is much better, but the fps and AF are much better on the 7D2, and, for me, the handling as well, so the 5D3 was reserved for low light and portraits and the 7D2 for everything else, so the 7D2 got considerably more use and was very much my main camera. It all depends on your priorities. I have now upgraded to a 1DX2, which gives me the fps, the AF and the high ISO performance, so I am selling the 5D3 and keeping the 7D2 as back-up.
For me it would be a very close call indeed between the 5D4 and the 7D2, and it might well come down to if my back up was FF or crop. If that was to be my only camera, it would probably be the 7D2, but I would have to do a LOT of research before making a final decision and it would be very close.
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chouglez
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Quite a useless thing from experience too although you learn to question everything, look at things from new angles (pun intended) and can concentrate on everything far longer and deeper than most other people... Should have studied law or economics to make money![/QUOTE]
Why didn't we cross paths in the past is simply beyond me @LongLensPhotography Now it's a wee bit too late to change careers 
Why didn't we cross paths in the past is simply beyond me @LongLensPhotography
Now it's a wee bit too late to change careers