why only nikon and canon???

That was my original point...it takes a long time.

That's the reason I was disputing you when you said Sony haven't managed to shift canikon...

Trainers a fashion accessory?

...you don't run do you lol.

Trainers are to runners what cameras are to us.
 
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Sony is never going to be a big player in the DSLR market. They've had a good go, and failed to budge the big two.

To succeed, they would need a clearly better product, at a cheaper price than Canikon, and with a lens range to match. Big primes are essential for many professionals, but how many years now has Sony had a 500mm f/4 they're about to launch? And still not here.

Not that there's anything stopping Sony from making another big push with DSLRs, but a) they don't seem very interested, b) consumers seem quite happy with Canikon and pros just don't take Sony seriously, and c) why would they bother when there's much more money to be made, much more easily, and with better long-term prospects in the CSC sector?

Sony might well put out a D800 rival, but more as a halo marketing effort than anything else. I hope they do, and I hope it sells plenty to keep Canikon on their toes.

Sony is also probably turning a good penny making and supplying sensors to quite a few other manufacturers, though what exactly their position there might be is unclear. Certainly very important obviously, but certainly not solus either - Nikon has a big input into the development of 'Sony' sensors for its cameras, as do other companies like Aptina, and Nikon always seems to attach a better processing engine to them.
I'm sorry Hoppy but I feel that you are wrong on a no. of things here.
1st don't write Sony off because they certainly haven't & they are still gradually gaining market share. They've also this year stated that imaging is one of their core areas.
Shortly you'll see a new FF from Sony & probably another 6 months after that.
There will also be new lenses & some refreshes/upgrades on existing ones.
Second, it seems to have passed you by that not only has the 500/4 arrived but a few people are actually buying it despite very high pricing (~£10k street). The results do look good though.
& the lens range really isn't an issue for 99% of people, what's missing?
an mpe-65 type product - v. low volume
tilt/shift - they do exist in A-mount (Schnieder etc). but are expensive & again low volume
an ultra-wide (as in <16mm) FF zoom -I would imagine a much higher demand that both of the above put together but without an FF body it's obviously not been a priority to introduce one
a long macro - there have been rumours of a 200mm in development
You could say a range of /4 lenses like Canon's but then again Nikon doesn't have that either ...

Certainly there is more money to be made at the volume end -it would be interesting to know if Canon & Nikon's pro gear really actually makes money in it's own right or if it serves more to help sell the consumer stuff than actually turn a profit itself - hence Sony have concentrated there.
& for a couple of years now I've been convinced that Sony just don't yet have the production capacity to be the market leader even if they were suddenly to become it but I have the feeling that production growth is being managed.
New factories are just too expensive not to run at high utilisation levels so they aren't built until they are sure that they can do that.

afaik new DSLR sales are still climbing but more slowly - of course that could just be the global economy & if that were to improve perhaps it would increase again.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see in a few years just Canon, Nikon & Sony left making DSLR/DSLT type cameras because I also suspect that in a few years there won't be many optical viewfinder cameras being made (especially at the consumer end). I'm pretty sure that whilst Sony were gradually making headway against Canon & Nikon in the OVF market they also reckoned that by the time that they got anywhere near parity there that the market would essentially have disappeared & they opted to try leapfrog to being first to where the market is headed.

There is a logic behind a lot of the KM/Sony decisions.
As users we may argue/dislike some of them but from the business pov there is a logic.

and as it happens Sony was one of the first to try and emulate Apple's Macs with their lookalike laptops.
I may be wrong but I think that if you go back far enough you'll find that actually Apple aped Sony's laptops & beat them at their own game (although obviously OS choice comes into it too seeing as Apple won't let others build computers running it's OS).
 
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I don't want this to end up as an Apple/Sony thing but I think something that these companies have in common is that they do try to push the envelope and create a product that creates a new market. (even if Hoppy disagrees I feel that way :D). Apple created the iPod that nobody wanted, and a touch-screen phone that caught the whole established manufacturer segment off guard. Sony created the walkman, then failed the MP3 game (or was it the ATRAC game), put a really really weird CPU into the PS3 (the Cell). Not that it's always worked, just look at all the proprietary media formats and formfactors that Sony has pushed out and had fail.

Sony has done well with the NEX series, taking the mirrorless game head-on. On the DSLR front they went SLT, a big gamble for sure and basically producing a DSLR-sized mirrorless camera, which is just waiting for the sensor tech used by Nikon in the 1-series and Canon in the 650D to catch up and include phase detect AF in the sensor itself. After all Sony produces the Nikon 1-series sensors too, don't they? When that happens, will we see a merger of the DSLT and NEX series in some way?

For me, when I wasn't yet invested into any system very heavily, the problem with Sony & Pentax was that they didn't really offer the kind of pro kit that Canikon did. I didn't know how far my enthusiasm was going to go with DSLRs, and it's gone a bit far (a bit toooo far some in my family would say) and I'd have hit somewhat of a dead-end with Sony or Pentax already. Pentax doesn't have a full-frame offering (even though they have some great weather-sealed full-frame glass!) and Sony has to tell everyone repeatedly that they're still going to do one because no-one is really believing them.

That boils down to commitment and a promise of building & maintaining the system. If Pentax had a full-frame system when I made my choice, I might very well be a happy Pentax user now. Even if my enthusiasm had never taken me to full-frame...

When people see Canikon kit bandied about by pros, they know that people's whose livelihoods depend on the kit - both for performance and reliability - put their faith in these two. That's thought leadership that you can only buy by making the best kit for the pros for a long time - even if the pro kit never turns a profit. From the stockholder point of view (ie. money making), it's a great but sometimes costly marketing drive that raises a big entry barrier to the market for new entrants.
 
It will be interesting to see what happens when medium format digital becomes affordable (which will happen - it wasnt that long ago that DSLRs were stupidly expensive) - Pentax had a very good film medium format camera in there 645 which handled like an SLR (if you read life in the wild you'll see it was good enough to pull Andy Rouse away from canon film SLRs - before the dSLRs pulled him back (and yes i know hes gone to nikon now)), If they could get the price down to a couple of grand the Pentax 645D would give things like the nikon D800 a run for thier money.

It will also be interesting to see what happens with olympus with the OM-D system
 
Firstly, let me just say that Sony are no longer in the DSLR market, they make SLT cameras. ;)

My thoughts on it all, because I'm in the mood. ;) :lol:

As far as why Canon and Nikon dominate the DSLR market, I think, firstly they were major SLR manufacturers, and being major players they had lenses and accessories in place when they turned to Digital. Although Kodak had been in the DSLR market, they didn't have the backup to capitalise in terms of lenses and accessories.

If people have expectations of taking photography to a high level or maybe specialising in an area, then Canikon would seem the logical choice because they have more choices and professional level products. That level of professionalism filters down to the rest of the market and engenders confidence in their brands. Add to that their advertising and product placement, and the without credible alternatives they just grew and grew.

The other major SLR manufacturers, Minolta, Olympus and Pentax weren't that quick in entering the market, and seemed to give Canon/Nikon a 3-4 year head start to build their user base from their film users, from people new to digital camera looking for a quality product, and from their rivals, whose users would only wait so long before moving to one of the big two. :shrug:

When they did bring products to the market they were nothing special, certainly nothing to make a Canikon user switch. :shrug: Indeed Olympus, along with Panasonic and few other brands adoption of the micro four thirds format immediately seemed to make them discounted in many enthusiasts (apart from die hard brand loyalists) eyes as a serious brand. Add to that the initial poor ISO performance of their sensors and seemed like they were always fighting an uphill battle. They were a very cost effective option for a beginners, as Sony cameras are, but Canon and Nikon brought out entry level cameras to cater for the cheaper end of the market. I imagine a lot of people who bought early Olympus cameras migrated to Canikon once they aspired for a certain level of performance.

Pentax seemingly had/have OK products but again, nothing special, and can anyone tell me how to pronounce the name of their '*ist D' cameras? :shrug: :bonk:

Minolta seemed to have good cameras, but were slow in bringing out models. Sony moved in and bought them up as a ready made lens mount to which to add their know how in other areas. And here is where I think Sony started making some mistakes, firstly they changed the name of the lens mount which confused people, and then they started spewing out cameras at an alarming rate imho. So fast, that magazine were reviewing cameras that were being superseded. And then the models they did bring out heaped more confusion into the market with two similar models with minor differences apart from the number of pixels. And a camera numbering system which was equally as confusing.

The Sony spray approach to releasing cameras didn't seem to inspire confidence. They bring out a Full Frame camera with the most pixels of the time, at a very competitive price, to generally good reviews, and then don't build on that. :bonk: Yes, the bring out another FF DSLR, but it is not as good. And they then abandon that sector of the market. Maybe they didn't have the lenses for Pro's, didn't have the Pro backup, and so didn't sell enough for them to know that they were on a losing wicket. (so to speak) But they seem to have done the same with their DSLR's in abandoning that sector of the market again. Yes, they may think that their SLT cameras are the way to go, but they had users waiting for their next DSLRs who were just left dangling with no DSLR upgrade path. :shrug: I certainly wouldn't buy into a Sony system, be that SLT or CSC with any confidence. If they think that it has a chance of not working, they may just move out of that market.

Sony have diversified into the CSC market along with Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic and seem to be doing very well, but that is another lens system that they have to start to build, and seeing as they were slow in doing that for their DSLR/SLT cameras, do they have the capacity to to continue to build two lens systems? :shrug: If people don't take to the SLT cameras will they dump that system? :shrug:

At least with Canon, Nikon and Pentax you feel that they have cameras at the core of their business, though Pentax aren't very prolific manufacturers. Yes, I know that Canon do a lot of other things, but they are so big that it wouldn't make sense for them to move out of the DSLR market. (yet) If the whole World goes CSC though and they don't jusp on board at some point... :shrug:

I think Nikon and Pentax are too late to that party btw, with poor products.
 
mmm, the R in DSLR stands for Reflex. DSLTs still reflect a portion of light so can still be considered as competitors in that market (& especially as the rest of the body/mount etc. is still very much in that vain). ;)
I can't speak for the background to Pentax or Olympus (except that I know that Olympus never really seemed to compete in the AF era of film SLRs) but the Minolta>Konica Minolta> Sony situation is a bit more complicated than you have made out.
be back in a bit when I've worked up a big post.

At least with Canon, Nikon and Pentax you feel that they have cameras at the core of their business, though Pentax aren't very prolific manufacturers. Yes, I know that Canon do a lot of other things, but they are so big that it wouldn't make sense for them to move out of the DSLR market. (yet)
Having worked for Canon many years ago there is no doubt that Canon's Office Business Unit is it's core (~54% of turnover).
The Consumer Business Unit which includes the camera division also includes inkjet printers, scanners, calculators etc. & I don't have the broken out figures for cameras alone but the whole CBU is ~37% of sales.
& I'm not sure what you can really say of Pentax these days ... they have just announced the death of their compact lines.
Only Nikon really are a company with cameras as it's core business (~80% of turnover).

you do realise that Sony are the no. 2 dedicated camera manufacturer in the world after Canon?
& probably the largest dedicated camera sensor manufacturer (I don't know if it still happens but Canon used to buy Sony sensors for it's compacts).
As recently as April 2012 Sony stated that imaging was one of the 3 core areas of it's electronics business & was investing heavily in it.
 
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For Sony to become a serious rival to Canikon in the DSLR sector, first they need the will. And I don't think they have that, because the investment would be huge and long term, and it would not make business sense. DSLR sales are in slow but steady decline.

I'm not sure where you get that from, Richard. From what I recall Sony stated that their aim was to become the number two player in the DSLR market which, according to consumer research agency GfK NOP, they did in the UK in December 2010 by overtaking Nikon.
 
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see in a few years just Canon, Nikon & Sony left making DSLR/DSLT type cameras because I also suspect that in a few years there won't be many optical viewfinder cameras being made (especially at the consumer end). I'm pretty sure that whilst Sony were gradually making headway against Canon & Nikon in the OVF market they also reckoned that by the time that they got anywhere near parity there that the market would essentially have disappeared & they opted to try leapfrog to being first to where the market is headed.

There is a logic behind a lot of the KM/Sony decisions.
As users we may argue/dislike some of them but from the business pov there is a logic.

I think you're right. Quite feasibly within ten years the DSLR as we know it will be withering, replaced or augmented by cameras with an EVF, even at the top end. Sony are betting big on that game already.

Quite how that pans out between them, Nikon, Canon and any other players is going to be an interesting exercise. CSCs are trading on smaller sensors and smaller and lighter lenses, bolstered by the reduction in body size achievable with no mirror box.

We could see Sony transitioning to a genuine next generation of NEX 'Pro' cameras, where many of those advantages are retained, but with a larger, fuller featured camera body. SLT with Alpha mount feels like a half way house that's destined to disappear in the longer term, though it may provide some interesting cues about where Sony is going (e.g. in-body IS would be more achievable in a larger box than the NEX-7). What NEX won't provide is full frame, unless they introduce a third lens system (which might at least account for the slow pace of E-mount lens releases).

Nikon have set out their consumer stall with their mirrorless CX, Canon look likely to go the APS-C route with their CSC offering (wait a couple of weeks to find out if the rumours are true).

It might make sense for them to pursue separation of their consumer CSC and legacy prosumer DSLR systems. They both have a lot of baggage (and profit to make) with F and EF mounts, which provide a powerful lock-in to their brands. If the compromises aren't too great, I suspect we're more likely to see a hybrid, fully-electronic system based on their existing systems from both manufacturers.

Given their history with the transition to autofocus, Canon could be culturally the more likely of the two to rip it up and start again.

Keep an eye on Samsung in the wings... not in the Japanese manufacturers' club, but hungry for a slice of the market and with very deep pockets and many of the skill sets they'll need for a post-DSLR future. They've already overtaken Nokia as the largest manufacturer of mobile phones this year, expect them to be gunning for Canon's position.


I may be wrong but I think that if you go back far enough you'll find that actually Apple aped Sony's laptops & beat them at their own game (although obviously OS choice comes into it too seeing as Apple won't let others build computers running it's OS).

If you go back far enough, Sony actually collaborated on the design and manufacture of the PowerBook 100 when Apple launched their PowerBook range in 1991. IIRC, it was designed as a stripped down and miniaturised version of the previous Macintosh Portable, at least in its electronics.

Two other PowerBooks launched at the same time, the PowerBook 140 and PowerBook 170 were entirely Apple in-house designs.

All three models sold very well, as did successor PowerBooks through the 1990s.

Sony didn't enter the global laptop market (outside of the Japanese domestic market for a spell in the 1980s) with their VAIO brand until 1996.
 
We could see Sony transitioning to a genuine next generation of NEX 'Pro' cameras, where many of those advantages are retained, but with a larger, fuller featured camera body.
David Kilpatrick feels that in many ways (menus, accessories) that the Nex-7 feels more like it fits in with the A range than a NEX.
What NEX won't provide is full frame, unless they introduce a third lens system
Sony have said that the E-mount will work with FF but is currently optimised for APS-C.
There have also been rumours about some kind of hybrid.
We do know that probably the biggest drawback to the A-mount these days is the mechanical aperture actuation - Minolta already knew it back in the 90s when it designed the Vectis mount for APS.

Sony didn't enter the global laptop market (outside of the Japanese domestic market for a spell in the 1980s) with their VAIO brand until 1996.
but didn't Apple then essentially copy the premium laptop look & business model of the Vaio as part of it's resurgence (Powerbook G4>)?
The Air I believe is a copy of a form factor that Sony pioneered with the X505?
 
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I'm not sure where you get that from, Richard. From what I recall Sony stated that their aim was to become the number two player in the DSLR market which, according to consumer research agency GfK NOP, they did in the UK in December 2010 by overtaking Nikon.

Sony can state what it likes, and one swallow doesn't make a summer. I don't accept that one monthly spike due to some pre-Xmas promo is any serious indication that Canikon's overwhelmingly dominant position in the DSLR market is seriously threatened, on an annual global basis.

Also, as far as I'm aware GkF no longer differentiates DSLRs from CSCs in their publicly issued data, they're all lumped together as interchangeable lens cameras. If you pay them lots of money, which all the big brands do (and I used to buy data from them too, in a previous life, and it costs many thousands) they will break it down any which way you like. You can usually find an angle on selective data like that to put out on a press release, but it doesn't change the true underlying position. Lies, damn lies, etc.

That's not to say that Sony isn't doing good things, and will continue to do so. It's got something with the SLTs that's worth pushing (eg A77 and A65 probably deserve to be more popular - they hardly get a mention on here) but I just don't think Sony's heart is in it. At least not compared to its ambitions in the CSC sector, where their NEX series is doing fantastically well. Sony might even be attracting more would-be DSLR buyers to its NEX cameras than it is to A-series, if you follow. NEX-7 is the best CSC I've used, but it's all very close and competitive, with everything to play for - Canikon have no intrinsic advantages and are, arguably, ham-strung by their position in DSLRs, robbing Peter to pay Paul etc.

It's also not something that I'm very keen argue about. Facts are scant, opinions are just that, including mine of course :D FWIW, and goin back to the OP, I find the present situation no surprise at all, and unlikely to change with Canikon sitting pretty on the top of a steadily decreasing pile of DSLRs. Meanwhile, a whole bunch of other brands are pitching into the CSC market and the outcome there is anybody's guess. I kind of think quite a few might be successful, and we may return to a situatuion where several brands settle down to live side by side. In maybe ten years time, Canikon will surely be in there, but with a much smaller share of completely different camera sales - probably bristling with video features and 'social networking' bells and whistles (heaven help us).

And that's not really good news for us, enthusiast stills toggers, looking longer term. If we want to stick with our pure, high-end, still-imaging DSLRs, we're going to be paying a lot more for the priviledge.
 
and we may return to a situatuion where several brands settle down to live side by side. In maybe ten years time, Canikon will surely be in there, but with a much smaller share of completely different camera sales - probably bristling with video features and 'social networking' bells and whistles (heaven help us).
I agree that there will probably be a change in the make-up of the market in terms of players & share.
I disagree in terms of 10 years, I think that it will be more like 5. ;)

And that's not really good news for us, enthusiast stills toggers, looking longer term. If we want to stick with our pure, high-end, still-imaging DSLRs, we're going to be paying a lot more for the priviledge.
I think that you've already lost that battle.
Is there a current production pure, high-end, still-imaging DSLR?
Don't they all have video now?

But competition is good - having had Sony (& Panasonic et al) has increased the pace of progress & driven down prices.
Can you imagine what you would have & how much you would be paying if there had only been Canon & Nikon?
 
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Said that it would be a long one & it is - but it could have been even longer, this is the concise version that ignores a few avenues :eek:

Warning: the following includes some conjecture & personal opinion ;)

In the film days Minolta had upto ~25% of the global SLR market making them a major player.
Unfortunately Honeywell claimed that Minolta's AF design transgressed some of their patents & offered to licence use of that IP to Minolta. Minolta's legal representation convinced them that if taken to court they would win so they didn't licence - however, the court didn't agree with Minolta's lawyers & in 1991 Minolta were ordered to pay Honeywell nearly $130million .
That basically wiped out years of camera profits & affected R&D budgets for new products.

You may be interested to know that Minolta introduced their first DSLR in 1995, the same year that Canon introduced theirs
It then launched a follow up in 1998 but subsequently decided that technology was changing so fast & at the time the market was so small that it couldn't recover development costs before bodies became obsolete.
It didn't re-enter the DSLR market until 2004 (albeit now badged as Konica Minolta) with what actually were great cameras (the 7D is still probably the best DSLR in terms of ergonomics - lots of knobs etc. instead of menus) but were probably a year too late (probably due to the events of the next sentence).

Like Canon, Minolta's business machines division was a more important part of the company than optics & Konica was in a similar position & also had other complementary products (film, processing labs etc.).
Konica & Minolta agreed to merge hoping to take advantage of synergies, volumes of scale etc. & did so in 2003.

A few years later it turned out that Sony had been looking to enter the DSLR market, had decided to licence a mount rather than develop their own from scratch & had been in discussion with various companies (it's known that they considered buying Nikon lock, stock & barrel) .
KM & Sony agreed a licence deal with the intention of them both producing competing lines but sharing the same mount. It's believed that slightly later KM came to the conclusion that in the future the digital camera market would come to be dominated by electronics companies (e.g. Sony, Panasonic, Samsung etc.) rather than optics companies* & decided to concentrate on it's other areas.
After further discussion with Sony they came to an agreement for Sony to effectively buy out KM's DSLR assets & licence some IP (KM apparently retains the right to re-enter the market if they wish & they still make lenses for e.g. JVC camcorders).
As for changing the name of the mount it's possibly Sony hubris but it's much more likely that as KM still exists as a large global corporation Sony simply isn't allowed to use Konica Minolta trademarks.

The first Sony DSLRs (A100, A700 & A200) were obviously heavily influenced by Minolta's heritage & are excellent cameras for their market sectors.
From there on there is obviously more internal Sony influence - e.g. for long enough I've believed that the A230/A330/A350 series were an attempt to basically produce a "bridge" camera but with an interchangeable mount.
Whether they were uncomfortable because of their small size (which also compromised battery size) or people just didn't expect a DSLR to be that small many people considered them as a backward step & Sony realising it's error moved quite quickly to replace them.
Also, Sony as a consumer electronics company was already used to annual product refreshes - unlike the traditional camera companies. Similarly multiple SKUs with only minor differences is a consumer electronics marketing approach.

The A900 again showed a lot of Minolta heritage being similar to an A700 but with a larger viewfinder & the same sensor as the Nikon D3X (the processing is different though with, I believe, Sony using on-die processing but Nikon opting to process off-sensor - part of the reason for the price difference)+.
The A850 I have on good authority was launched at the express wish of Sony USA to get to the $2000 pricepoint for a FF.
Similarly, I have it on good authority that at least in Europe the dearer A900 outsold the A850.
Nor have Sony forgotten FF & if, as expected, they launch another FF body this summer it won't have been any slower than Nikon's FF body replacement programme & only marginally longer than Canon's.

Despite having markedly increased Minolta-AF/Alpha mount DSLR market share imo Sony appear to have come to the conclusion that whilst they could gain market share that it would take many years to achieve parity with Canon & Nikon playing the "me-too" game & also possibly that by the time that they achieved it that with technological advance the market would have changed anyway*. Hence we have different technologies from them like "Quick AF Live View" & SLT which to be fair do have some advantages as well as some disadvantages.
& if you can charge the same it's simpler & more profitable to build with an EVF than an OVF especially if you make your own EVFs. Sony are excellent at production engineering & parts sharing.

Sony have shown many times over their history that they are willing to innovate - it doesn't always work but when it does it leads to large enough profits to pay for the failed attempts.
Canon (& I say this having worked for them many moons ago) is more of a "safer" company but with an exceptional marketing department.

Here endeth the lesson. :p


* & imo they were right
+Also, there does appear to be some collusion between Nikon & Sony on sensors even if it's only cross-licencing of IP.
 
mmm, the R in DSLR stands for Reflex. DSLTs still reflect a portion of light so can still be considered as competitors in that market (& especially as the rest of the body/mount etc. is still very much in that vain). ;)

To quote Wikipedia, (dangerous I know, ;) but it seems the correct description)
A single-lens reflex (SLR) camera is a camera that typically uses a mirror and prism system (hence "reflex", from the mirror's reflection) that permits the photographer to view through the lens and hence see exactly what will be captured, contrary to viewfinder cameras where the image could be significantly different from what will be captured.

For me a DSLR has an optical viewfinder, the DSLT cameras do not. :shrug:

Having worked for Canon many years ago there is no doubt that Canon's Office Business Unit is it's core (~54% of turnover).
The Consumer Business Unit which includes the camera division also includes inkjet printers, scanners, calculators etc. & I don't have the broken out figures for cameras alone but the whole CBU is ~37% of sales.
& I'm not sure what you can really say of Pentax these days ... they have just announced the death of their compact lines.
Only Nikon really are a company with cameras as it's core business (~80% of turnover).

I didn't phrase it correctly, and maybe should have left Canon out of the first sentence, :bonk: but thanks for putting in some numbers. :thumbs:

you do realise that Sony are the no. 2 dedicated camera manufacturer in the world after Canon?
& probably the largest dedicated camera sensor manufacturer (I don't know if it still happens but Canon used to buy Sony sensors for it's compacts).
As recently as April 2012 Sony stated that imaging was one of the 3 core areas of it's electronics business & was investing heavily in it.

I know Sony make Sensors for a lot of manufacturers, Nikon included, like you, I don't know about Canon. :shrug: I think Sony making Sensors for so many brands has had good and bad aspects imho. On the one hand so many Sensors in so many cameras brings the costs down. :thumbs: On the other hand, I think Sony's constant increase in pixels has sometimes increased to the detriment of image quality and has forced other Sensor makers to follow suit. You can't stop progress obviously, but I think they've progressed too quickly at times.
 
To quote Wikipedia, (dangerous I know, ;) but it seems the correct description)
"A single-lens reflex (SLR) camera is a camera that typically uses a mirror and prism system (hence "reflex", from the mirror's reflection) that permits the photographer to view through the lens and hence see exactly what will be captured, contrary to viewfinder cameras where the image could be significantly different from what will be capture"
Apart from the argument about believing in all things Wikipedia note the use of the word "typically" i.e. other forms are not ruled out.
DSLTs do allow you to view through the lens and hence see exactly what will be captured - indeed it's quite easy to argue that they do that better than at least pentaprism if not pentamirror OVFs.


I know Sony make Sensors for a lot of manufacturers, Nikon included, like you, I don't know about Canon. :shrug: I think Sony making Sensors for so many brands has had good and bad aspects imho. On the one hand so many Sensors in so many cameras brings the costs down. :thumbs: On the other hand, I think Sony's constant increase in pixels has sometimes increased to the detriment of image quality and has forced other Sensor makers to follow suit. You can't stop progress obviously, but I think they've progressed too quickly at times.
Strangely enough Sony lagged Canon in megapixels for several years & it's only since the 24Mp in the A77 & NEX7 that they are at the forefront.
In reality I think that manufacturers are likely to leapfrog each other.
On the other hand Canon have been lagging on dynamic range & colour depth for a while - surely they must improve soon?

It's also quite funny that trawling through DPReview's forums (always a risky business!) the Canon EOS forum seems to think that Sony have a better jpeg engine than them whilst the prevailing feeling on the Alpha forum is that Sony's jpeg engine isn't that great to say the least ...
 
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I think there were people at Kodak that totally got digital, the early Canon and Nikon DSLRs were Kodak collaborations. But they didn't maintain the momentum when Canikon left the partnerships. They had a history of building P&S cameras going back to the early days of photography, but were late with digital models. They were in a brilliant position, but failed to take advantage.

Probably because the board was dominated by people steeped in analogue, they dropped the ball. Fuji had a slower start in digital but haven't been hit as hard because they adapted better.

Sony are a consumer brand and will never be taken seriously by photographers, their products appeal to people who read spec sheets. Olympus and Pentax weren't in a good state prior to digital, and so were slow to invest. Have a clunky relationship with the past, which makes fanboys laud their ability to use old lenses, but in reality makes it complicated for new users.

I believe that Canons success in the nineties and the digital age is due to the EOS mount, whilst many thought they'd thrown away the baby with the bath water, they built a solid foundation for whatever the future had to hold by going electronic. Nikon have ended up in a messier state with their legacy lenses and new cheap cameras, but their massive user base and marketing have carried through the transition.

Cheaper MF cameras may make the market look a bit more like it used to, but in all honesty I think APSC cameras are the modern equivalent of a 35mm SLR and FF are the old MF equivalent. Only studio pros need MF and they would have been using larger MF or large format in the past.
 
Sony are a consumer brand and will never be taken seriously by photographers,
& yet they are dominant in professional broadcast & other areas.
Certainly some pro photographers are more than willing to use Alphas & NEX.
If I was a pro I too would be shooting Canon or Nikon but that would be for the available professional backup services (& possibly a specialist lens like t/s or an mpe-65) not because of any other inherent superiority.
Sony have similar services for professional broadcast so in theory if they decided to attack the pro DSLR market they could bolt those onto their existing setup relatively easily. Or alternatively they may just decide that the pro DSLR market isn't worth the investment :shrug:
 
I read somewhere recently that the patent for the lens mount on Canon camera bodies (not the mount on the lens) has run out does that mean that another manufacturer could make a camera body that will take Canon lenses?
Would be interesting times if that happened:)
 
Historically it's quite simple. Nikon brought out the first 35mm SLR in the 50s and expanded from there so they were always going to be seen as a leader. Canon remained average until the 80s. Pentax, Nikon and Olympus made all the advancements in tech. (Minolta made a few minor tweaks but nothing ground breaking) Eventually in the 80s someone at Canon decided it was time for a big push and they decided they were going to nail the professional market once and for all - and they did. They brought out bodies fully aimed at being fast and furious and having a range of glass of all manner of sizes and speeds. This doesn't really fit with the ethos of Pentax and Olympus, who all along had been pushing small size and quality as their dealbreakers, so they didn't follow suit. Nikon have sort of followed suit, they don't have a massive range but still trade on a reputation of a pro quality camera.

This was all going on around the time Autofocus was becoming commonplace, Canon jumped on it and developed the EOS mount, Minolta bought Konica and promptly killed off the Konica system, and attempted to join the game with a new AF mount. Sadly as always Minolta's bodies were a bit crappy, though the lenses were outstanding. Pentax ot in on the action with a few half hearted attempts at pro AF cameras, but it was too little too late. Olympus kept to the OM mount manual focus system right ill the end, providing a high quality manual focus alternative which unfortunately was never going to last.

Then Digital came in. Kodak made sensors for old Nikon film cameras that were really rather good, but made the camera massive. Canon and Nikon simply did it themselves and made a nicer job of it, Kodak gave up. They made a few sensors for other people, as it was Kodak who had initially devised all the digital sensor tech they were considered market leaders, but they failed to innovate, and just did what they always do, rely on patent income.

Fuji had a go too, sticking a digital sensor into a Nikon film camera, and that eventually led to the S5 pro, at the time however it was the height of the megapixel race and a 12 megapixel sensor (which only resolves around 6Mp) was considered well out of date and never did well, and that was the end of Fuji's DSLRs.

As far as today's market place goes, I thing onbly Canon and Nikon are in a place to sell DSLRs, everyone else is rightly holding out to see what the Mirrorless sector does.
 
(Minolta made a few minor tweaks but nothing ground breaking)
Wrong.
In 1977 Minolta launched the first SLR to have both aperture priority & shutter priority AE modes. I remember it well as I walked into a local camera shop intending to buy a Canon but I walked out with an XD.
So good that Leica based the R4 on it.

This was all going on around the time Autofocus was becoming commonplace, Canon jumped on it and developed the EOS mount, Minolta bought Konica and promptly killed off the Konica system, and attempted to join the game with a new AF mount. Sadly as always Minolta's bodies were a bit crappy, though the lenses were outstanding.
Very wrong.
When Minolta launched the 7000 AF in 1985 it was the first camera to feature both integrated autofocus (AF) and motorised film advance in the body.
Canon didn't launch the EOS EF mount until 1987.
Konica stopped building SLRs in 1987 (& actually that one was really built by Cosina). Minolta & Konica didn't merge until 2003.
Few people would consider the likes of the Dynax 9 & 7 as crappy :bonk:
 
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HoppyUK said:
Sony can state what it likes, and one swallow doesn't make a summer. I don't accept that one monthly spike due to some pre-Xmas promo is any serious indication that Canikon's overwhelmingly dominant position in the DSLR market is seriously threatened, on an annual global basis.

Also, as far as I'm aware GkF no longer differentiates DSLRs from CSCs in their publicly issued data, they're all lumped together as interchangeable lens cameras. If you pay them lots of money, which all the big brands do (and I used to buy data from them too, in a previous life, and it costs many thousands) they will break it down any which way you like. You can usually find an angle on selective data like that to put out on a press release, but it doesn't change the true underlying position. Lies, damn lies, etc.

That's not to say that Sony isn't doing good things, and will continue to do so. It's got something with the SLTs that's worth pushing (eg A77 and A65 probably deserve to be more popular - they hardly get a mention on here) but I just don't think Sony's heart is in it.

I'm not denying that the figures (may) be flawed, however you said

HoppyUK said:
For Sony to become a serious rival to Canikon in the DSLR sector, first they need the will.

well, they have, or rather had, the will to be a big player in the DSLR. They made some very bold statements when they first entered the market, but ultimately they are not a camera company and I don't think that they understood the professional market and a lack of exposure in the
media (I wonder how many here bought a Canon on the strength of seeing a sea of white lenses at on the tv) meant the brand was always going to struggle to be taken seriously in the serious-amateur and pro market sectors.

The irony is, had they not stuck so rigidly to their proprietary hotshoe design they would probably have seen a greater uptake of the a900 etc by professionals as it offered a lot of bang-for-your buck.

Ultimately I can see them quietly dropping their whole DSLR/SLT line and quietly going back to concentrating on smaller stuff, although that being said the p+s market is contracting at a fair old rate now that everyone has a camera in their phone.....
 
As it stands only nikon and canon seem to be in the race for mid level cameras with sony slowly pushing in to steal some thunder (but still not used by a vast number of pro's)

Why is this?

To get back to the original question, the basic answer is that Canon and Nikon have about 80% market share between them in the DSLR/DSLT market.

So when shops look at what to stock, they go with Canon / Nikon first, and if there's space left, perhaps some Sony.
So when someone goes into a shop to get a DSLR / DLST the choice is mainly Canon or Nikon.
When they ask someone they know what to get, there is an 80% chance they person uses Canon or Nikon, and as there is not, in real terms, a big difference in favour of any one of the brands, the recommendation will often be 'what I use'.

The only way to break through this kind of 'barrier' is to offer something different - originally it was price - when I bought my A200 it was ~£250 including a 18-70 kit lens. The cheapest Canon / Nikon was £350. That was the difference between getting a DSLR or not.

Now it is the SLT technology, with the high quality EVF & high frame rates.

We shall have to wait to see if this works or not.

But Sony are certainly trying to be successful in the market - as mentioned earlier, they launched the 500 f/4 earlier this year, and have a FF SLT in the pipeline.

What they need is to have the determination to build on the success they have already made - and that will not be a cheap or quick option for them.
 
I'm not denying that the figures (may) be flawed, however you said



well, they have, or rather had, the will to be a big player in the DSLR. They made some very bold statements when they first entered the market, but ultimately they are not a camera company and I don't think that they understood the professional market and a lack of exposure in the
media (I wonder how many here bought a Canon on the strength of seeing a sea of white lenses at on the tv) meant the brand was always going to struggle to be taken seriously in the serious-amateur and pro market sectors.

The irony is, had they not stuck so rigidly to their proprietary hotshoe design they would probably have seen a greater uptake of the a900 etc by professionals as it offered a lot of bang-for-your buck.

Ultimately I can see them quietly dropping their whole DSLR/SLT line and quietly going back to concentrating on smaller stuff, although that being said the p+s market is contracting at a fair old rate now that everyone has a camera in their phone.....

Well yes, I think we're agreeing! When I say Sony lacks the will, that doesn't mean they wouldn't like to sell stacks of DSLRs, but when they do the sums they'll see that for every dollar invested, they will get a greater return in the CSC sector than DSLRs, they will get it sooner, and it will continue to pay back longer. No brainer really.

As for Sony's future in the DSLR sector, I'm really not sure. Sony maybe hasn't ripped up any trees, but so long as they're making money they'll continue. The halo affect of having 'serious' cameras must help sell the brand as a whole, and it's something Panasonic and Samsung don't have.

But I do worry about where this is all heading for enthusiast folks like us. There's no doubt we have been 'subsidised' by our lovely high end DSLRs benefiting from development costs shared with models lower down the range, and by the overall profits derived from the mass compact camera market, and that's shrinking fast. What it all means I don't know, but change is ahead.
 
panasonic are in partnership with leica , as samsung are with pentax - which , particularly in the former case projects a halo of its own
 
The proprietary hotshoe was a stupid mistake. It would have been been much better to have switched but offered a doodad so that older flashes worked rather than keeping that shoe.

I kept with sony as the A580 was basically a squeaky nikon D7000 for a third of the cost. It was a no brainer.

With the likes of Fuji shaking up the dslr market then who knows. There are plenty of people that are now leaving their large canon/nikon bodies at home and going out with the X100 or X-pro.
 
panasonic are in partnership with leica , as samsung are with pentax - which , particularly in the former case projects a halo of its own

The Leica thing doesn't mean much, other than Panasonic bungs them a few quid for the name. But Leica means nothing to younger people - they've literally never heard of it.

Pentax is now wholly owned by Ricoh. Could be one to watch ;)
 
Please don't mention Pentax cameras or lots of folks will find how good they are and the price will go up. :)

Dave
 
Leica perfected aspherical blank pressing thus helping Panasonic with their lenses and Panasonic have the engineering and electronics expertise to help Leica. Like Sony having Zeiss on their camera lenses for compacts etc it's a name you can trust for optical excellence.

Looking at the price of the high end Sony video cameras that are £120,000 a DSLR for them would be relatively easy to produce.
 
I ndidnt actually realise sony had the 24-70 and 70-200
When i sold my a200 it was due to the lack of lenses and the vast amount offered by nikon.
Plus the bloody annoying hotshoe they had/have... do they still use the weird hotshoe?

A massive bonus i see to sony is that they have anti shake inside the camera.
Was such a good feature of the a200... i see they have it with the a900, couple that with the 24-70 ziess i see that as being a very good combination.
Although thats discontinued now if they keep it with the next ff camera that should be a good thing, they just need to bring the price down to a realistic level.
 
Plus the bloody annoying hotshoe they had/have... do they still use the weird hotshoe?

Yes, still using the Minolta hotshoe.
Never had any real problems with it myself - and the fact that you just need to push the flash on to lock it in place seems quite nice. Simple push button to release and slide the flash off. Works well, but then I'm not using flash a lot, so there may be issues I'm unaware of.
The only problem I can see is that it is a plastic mount, rather than metal, so may not be as robust.

A900 + CZ 24-70 f/2.8 - yes, it's a great combo. It was using that for a day that convinced me to upgrade from the A700 to A900 when the opportunity arose to get one s/h at a good price. I've only got the Sigma 24-70 f/2.8 HSM, but that's still pretty good (Though if I don't need a zoom, I'll use the Minolta 85 f/1.4 G as that is superb on the A900)
 
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Yes, still using the Minolta hotshoe.
Never had any real problems with it myself - and the fact that you just need to push the flash on to lock it in place seems quite nice. Simple push button to release and slide the flash off. Works well, but then I'm not using flash a lot, so there may be issues I'm unaware of.

The main issue with their proprietary hotshoe is that it precludes the use of Pocket Wizards or similar without an adapter.
 
I have enjoyed this thread very much, a lot of history and knowledge most of which I have watched from a distance over the years. I never had the money, or good reason to buy a DSLR so I'm probably one of those who are going to shape what is available in the future. I'm now in the CSC field and have never enjoyed photography so much, for the reasons you all know very well without me running through lt.

Those speculating where things are going, or what manufacturers might be planning need only ask the question of themselves, "If I invest any more of my money in Camera Equipment, what will it be"

If you are a business person, then keeping up appearances is going to be a big factor in your choice, if like me it is only for pleasure, then you might think about what will please you the most for the least outlay and be less influenced by what others say.
 
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