Why Nikon needs an f/4 range...

danbroad

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This may be a common thread discussion, but it's presently on my mind, so here it goes again...

There are many convincing reasons to go 'Nikon' - for me, it's the D700 for ultra low light ISO capability and the superb ergonomics right now... but Canon's lens range is superb, and Nikon has no direct equivalent of the 17-40 f/4L, the 24-105 f/4L and the 70-200 f/4L.

Is this a problem? Well, there are a great many who would point out that pro's will only look at f/2.8 zooms - of which Nikon's 14-24 and 24-70 are arguably the best made by any manufacturer. They would suggest that Nikkor consumer zooms are well made, and produce good tonal quality and contrast. But to be so blinkered is to miss the point, in my opinion.

If, today, you're going full frame on a Nikon mount, and you don't want the weight or expense of the 24-70 f/2.8 zoom [a not inconsiderable £1000 on top of your £1600 D700 outlay], then your only other viable Nikkor option is the 24-120VR. Indeed, it's the D700's 'kit lens'. It's a worthy lens, but it has numerous disadvantages when you look at the 24-105L that canon 5d owners play with.

Firstly, it's nowhere near as well built. I own an 18-200; it's nice, doesn't rattle, produces sharp shots, and is about as good as a plastic body lens is ever going to be. But it doesn't hold a candle to the metal precision of the 24-105L, a lens I used to own on my Canon body.

Secondly, the 24-120 has a similar VR/IS mechanism, and benefits from an extra few mm of zoom equivalent - but unlike the 24-105, isn't a lens you would hasten to shoot wide open. The 24-105L produces the goods right from f/4.

Thirdly, whether true or not, constant maximum aperture is seen as a sign of a high-end lens. The Nikkor loses an available stop at the long end; perhaps not such a great deal if you're prepared to push the ISO a stop, which you can with the FX sensor, but unnecessary on the Canon. Plus, as it's perceived a high-end lens, it retains almost 100% of its value come resale time. Pop a 24-105L on these sale forums for £550, and it'll sell within 24 hours.

Fourth, as a plastic body with a duo-cam zoom, it's not weathersealed like the Canon. Fifth, it's not that far removed in price from the 24-105, and - my final rant:nuts: - it's not that much lighter than the 24-105 in everyday use.

If I go full frame with a beautiful weathersealed, high-end body like the D700, I'd like a high-end, well made, weathersealed lens to stick on the front of it. Some of us would choose an f/4 over the f/2.8 to save weight and cost, and useable sharpness from f/4.

If pro's [which I am not] would only consider f/2.8's, then [and my information is anecdotal, from a photo retailer] why does the Canon f/4 range outsell the f/2.8?

C'mon Nikon, Canon woke up and smelled the coffee with the lack of an 18-200; surely you guys should see the available market for some Nikkor f/4's?

Anyway, rant over...
 
Well I'd argue we don't need a 17-40 L :gag:

Agree about the f/4 lens generally - we either get variable aperture consumer zooms (which are quite good optically) or the very nice - but huge and pricey - f/2.8 lenses.

I'd love a 70-200 f/4.

As to the 24-105, well we have the excellent 28-105 f/3.4 - f/4.5 which averages f/4 and its excellent - a stellar performer. No IS, but its not needed in such a short lens.

I don't think we are going to see a Nikkor f/4 zoom range though. I'd only buy a 70-200 personally.
 
The 28-105 is an AF lens, so loses both AF-S and VR. No matter how good the performance, I can put up with primes being AF, but a walkaround zoom needs as many bells and whistles as it can get in my opinion...
 
The 28-105 is an AF lens, so loses both AF-S and VR. No matter how good the performance, I can put up with primes being AF, but a walkaround zoom needs as many bells and whistles as it can get in my opinion...

How do you think we managed in the pre AF/VR days.

They are not the be all many people think

All my opinion :)
 
Well, I know we all did alright - but now we are in an age where this technology is available to us - and more importantly, available to the competition.. Nikon make great gear, but in this one particular area we have no decent competition for Canon - not just with ultrasonic focusing or image stabilisation , but in build, weathersealing, perceived value and resale.

I just can't shake the feeling that the 24-120VR is partnered, almost as an apology, with the D700 because Nikkor don't [yet?] have anything more appropriate to offer as a full frame 'kit lens' below their [as mentioned] pricey, perfect f/2.8 flagships.

Funny how here and other forums, we Nikonians are quick to dismiss an f/4 range... yet canon owners wouldn't do without theirs.. perhaps I've just seen [and owned] from both sides of the fence...
 
People looking to get into a system look around, in the shops, on the web; they're about to invest a great deal of money into this, and if they're clued up, among other things they look at lens availability and quality. They see this sort of thing [copied from perhaps the most well known lens review site]:

regards the 12-24 f/4:
The build quality of the lens is very decent. However, the outer parts are still just made of (good quality) plastic - slightly disappointing for a lens in this price class but positively speaking it is a very light-weight lens as a result.

about the 17-40L:
The build quality of this lens is exceptional just as you would expect from a Canon L lens. No wobbling whatsoever and smooth controls - almost perfect. The lens is also designed to survive in harsh conditions with a sealing against dust and moisture.

regards the 24-120 VR:
The mechanical construction of the lens is closely related to the new AF-S 18-200mm VR (or vice versa). The build quality is decent but nothing to rave about due to the extensive usage of average quality plastics.

about the 24-105L:
The build quality of this lens is exceptional. No significant wobbling and smooth control ring - almost perfect. The lens is also designed to survive in harsh conditions with a sealing against dust and moisture.

I'm a proud Nikon owner, but even the most adamant of Nikon defenders must see that below the f/2.8, £1000-plus monsters, Canon's offerings seem to offer that little bit more...

Anyway, I don't mean to offend or start a C vs N war... but as I'm imminent on a D700, this seems really quite important to me at the moment...
 
I'm imminent on a D700, this seems really quite important to me at the moment...

Then get the 28-105 f/3.5 - f/4.5 - its a stunner. You won't care about lack of VR, or "slow" AF when you see the results.

You have to shoot with what we've got, and this is very nice.

If the lens choice bothers you that much, then why look at the D700?

Seriously IMHO lenses are FAR more important than the body - glass, glass, glass first - always... the camera doesn't matter (that much)

The 5D is a bargain right now.. that £600 saving would buy a 24-105 L....
 
SIMPLE - Nikon cater for the elite of photographers....and people pay for th ebest.

So stop whinging about saving £1600 on the D3 with your D700 and buy the proper glass. Get a 24-70 f2.8 AND the 70-200f2.8 and never look back. You would get the lot for the same price as a D3 and kit 24-70.

I suppose it depends on how much emphasis you place on quality - the Nikon startedgy is very good, it steers people towards their best lenses...you included. As you have already alluded to, that is what you really want.

Canon do people NO service by offering an interim lens line up....you then get a halfway house and put up with it, wishing you had gone for their 2.8L glass. At least Nikon have taken that temptation away from you.
 
Agreed, glass first - I have the 85/1.4 and the 300/4 for my critical stuff. This isn't an anti-Nikon rant, although I concede it comes across as such - more an imbalance of availability.

Nikon presently produce the best high ISO sensor around [the 5D I is slow, the 5D II likely to be a studio camera with that pixel density/resolution], and arguably the best f/2.8's, but it sees fit to offer the D700 as a 'portable' D3 with weathersealing, without provision for more 'portable/lightweight lenses' with the same weather protection.

Lensflare, there are other issues than cost here.
 
SIMPLE - Nikon cater for the elite of photographers....and people pay for th ebest.

So stop whinging about saving £1600 on the D3 with your D700 and buy the proper glass. Get a 24-70 f2.8 AND the 70-200f2.8 and never look back. You would get the lot for the same price as a D3 and kit 24-70.

I suppose it depends on how much emphasis you place on quality - the Nikon startedgy is very good, it steers people towards their best lenses...you included. As you have already alluded to, that is what you really want.

Canon do people NO service by offering an interim lens line up....you then get a halfway house and put up with it, wishing you had gone for their 2.8L glass. At least Nikon have taken that temptation away from you.

Now I've just purchased a Canon 70-200mm F4 and could quite easily got the F2.8 equivalent but it had nothing to do with getting the best or settle for second best. The main reason I went F4 is the weight and it's ability to be very hand holdable.

I think the OP is correct in a lot of his points. I'm not a Canon vs Nikon type person but Canon does seem to know the market a little better than Nikon in this area. I'm sure if you want the best then you would go Nikon, but if you do not need the very best then Canon is catering for that as well.

Only time will tell whether Nikon has got it right or if Canon have got it right. These hard economic times will be vital to both as whoever comes out on top from this will probably dominate for a long time.

Choccy...
 
Now I've just purchased a Canon 70-200mm F4 and could quite easily got the F2.8 equivalent but it had nothing to do with getting the best or settle for second best. The main reason I went F4 is the weight and it's ability to be very hand holdable.

Exactly why I'd like one.

Nikon's 70-200 VR is a better lens that the 70-200 f/2.8 IS though... so I'd be buying the Canon 70-200 f/4 for its superb optics as well as the weight advantage. Cracking little lens, I'd love it in Nikon mount :)
 
I'm also about to jump for a D700. The kit lens is pants, and in that regard, Canon's pairing of the 5D and 24-70L is very tempting.

Tried the 70-200 in store today, and my god, it's very heavy, and very - very - good. 24-70, 50/1.4 and 85/1.8 on the list though.

Puddleduck's recommendation is a good one. It's a cheap lens and gets good reviews. Check out:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=110&sort=7&cat=28&page=2
 
SIMPLE - Nikon cater for the elite of photographers....and people pay for th ebest.

So stop whinging about saving £1600 on the D3 with your D700 and buy the proper glass. Get a 24-70 f2.8 AND the 70-200f2.8 and never look back. You would get the lot for the same price as a D3 and kit 24-70.

I suppose it depends on how much emphasis you place on quality - the Nikon startedgy is very good, it steers people towards their best lenses...you included. As you have already alluded to, that is what you really want.

Canon do people NO service by offering an interim lens line up....you then get a halfway house and put up with it, wishing you had gone for their 2.8L glass. At least Nikon have taken that temptation away from you.


I like this argument :clap:. There are times I wish there was a Nikon 70-200 f4, but then I know it would not be anywhere near as good as the f2.8, most importantly, I know once I get an f4 (if there was such a lens) I would be craving for the f2.8 and wished I didn't spend the money on a mid-way make-do option .. so, I hold on until I can get the f2.8.

May be there is a lot of logic to Nikons' strategy :thinking:
 
SIMPLE - Nikon cater for the elite of photographers....and people pay for th ebest.

I suppose it depends on how much emphasis you place on quality - the Nikon startedgy is very good, it steers people towards their best lenses...you included. As you have already alluded to, that is what you really want.

Canon do people NO service by offering an interim lens line up....you then get a halfway house and put up with it, wishing you had gone for their 2.8L glass. At least Nikon have taken that temptation away from you.


all very well and good - if you can afford to buy these top lenses! But if you can't and you've gone the Nikon route, you're not exactly well catered for in the mid ranges.....
 
I agree 100% with Dan. (Again.)

Some of our most popular lenses are the high-quality-but-reasonably-affordable Canon ones he's mentioned (24-105L, 17-40L, 70-200 f/4L, etc.). And some more of our most popular lenses are also Canon ones where Nikon doesn't have a particularly good commparator (for example 100-400L, 10-22). I can't help feeling that if Nikon made lenses in these ranges, they'd be popular. We know they could - by and large, where the two manufacturers have similarly specified lenses the Nikon ones are at least as good - but I just don't understand why they don't. I don't buy the "elitist" strategy for one second.
 
If you could use a EF 17-40mm f/4 on a Nikon i'd be straight down the shop to get one - truly staggering lens.

On the 70-200mm front then surely the f/2.8 80-200mm is the best option? If they did an f/4 version for less than £400 that would be good but then you just buy the Sigma or the Tamrons.

This is the whole reason why you need to research the brand you're buying into - does it fit your needs and does the range offer what you want? If not, you go elsewhere or make do...
 
It seems the truly balanced views on this come from those who've either owned both systems at some point, or who work in the trade and see both sides of the story. Thankyou, Stewart, for clarifying what I was told in Mifsuds the other week.

The simple fact is that the 24-105, and the whole the 17-40 and 70-200 f/4 range, are among Canon's biggest sellers [behind the kit lens for obvious reasons]. Plenty of jobbing photographers shoot with them; very few satisfied Canon owners consider them an unlucky 'halfway house'. The fact that people here are recommending Sigma alternatives or older discontinued AF Nikkors, good though they are, suggest that there is no 'in-house' option of note.

But - before any more 'why not go Canon' suggestions, this argument isn't about my Canon jealousy, or my wish for us all to go f/2.8 - it's about the lack of a direct lens competition for the biggest market expansion Nikon made this year - the 'Prosumer' full frame sensor. Which, whether you agree with it or not, means this thread is a discussion about market forces, competition in the marketplace, and specifically the shortcomings of the lens most likely to be offered alongside the D700.

As for 'strategy to make you go for the best' etc... absolute codswallop. Not everybody has the same brief when looking at lenses; if they did, we'd all own a 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 and be done. Frankly it's the sort of elitist and dismissive response I'd expect to see on dpreview... and precisely the 'blinkered' response I suggested in my second sentence of the original post.

If you recap my initial post, you'll see that overall cost is a minor point in my rationale behind these lenses. If I want the f/2.8, I'll get it - but I want something lighter, sturdy, more discreet, more in keeping with the D700. If I want the f/2.8, then I'll get the D3 to go with it. Job done.

The f/4 range is much more than costs alone - it's bringing smaller, lighter lenses with the build and weathersealing you'd expect from the high end, but at a more consumer price point. And if there's no point in bringing out high-end features at a lower price point, then - hey - why the D700? Surely that's the same idea, but regards camera bodies rather than glass. Hell, why offer anything less than the D3 and the 1Ds Mark III? What's the point? Everything else is a wannabee, pretenders to the crown, right?

Anyway, for the responses, thankyou. I'll have a look at the other lens options mentioned. I happened on the D700 again lastnight, and it was attached - in Jessops - to the 24-120VR. The discrepancy between body and lens was never so great. My argument stands.
 
all very well and good - if you can afford to buy these top lenses! But if you can't and you've gone the Nikon route, you're not exactly well catered for in the mid ranges.....

I disagree slightly. I've gone down the Nikon route and the mid range lenses, there are some very, very good other-brand lenses, such as my recent purchase, the Tamron 17-50 f2.8. Of course some people want only Nikon lenses or only Canon lenses and that's fair enough. In an ideal world, I'd do the same but in that ideal world, I'd be earning much more and would have the f2.8 24-70 and 70-200 lenses on a D3. However, for a lens much better than the kit lenses and lower end Nikons, and almost as good as their top end lenses, there are quite a few offerings from other manufacturers. The way I see it is Nikon cater for the new buyer and the pro and leave the mid range to the other guys.
 
HOOK, LINE AND SINKER:clap::clap:

I thnk you should lighten up - my post was meant to be provocative and deliberate. It worked. I'll reel you in now, you have been dangling long enough:p

What i don't understand is how an f4 is more hand holdable than an f2.8? How is that then, with a stop less?

Anyone who reckons the 70-200 is heavy should pick up the old 80-200 AFS - it is heavier by about 30% - I have the two here now. I keep the 80-200 for nasty jobs where I won't take the decent kit (like down the bottom of a quarry......where everything gets covered in dust or mud).

Try hand holding a 500 f4 all day...you won't think the 70-200 is heavy then. I think it is nice and light! I hike across the hills with it - 12 miles each way the other day, (my 300 2.8, 24-70 and 70-200, a couple of flashes, a TC1.4 and lunch.....). Maybe it is just because I am Charles Atlas' brother:lol:
 
As for 'strategy to make you go for the best' etc... absolute codswallop. Not everybody has the same brief when looking at lenses; if they did, we'd all own a 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 and be done. Frankly it's the sort of elitist and dismissive response I'd expect from Americans on dpreview... and precisely the 'blinkered' response I suggested in my second sentence of the original post.

I have thought for some time that there are more and more threads on here that are focussing on 'gear' and to put it bluntly going into the far end of a fart in that respect! :D

I consider myself a simple soul really. :thinking: I like taking photos, other people like them and sometimes buy them, as a result I have been fortunate enough to reinvest any money earned into lenses and an upgraded camera body, as well as raising lots of money for my chosen charity. I think I know what I am doing and really enjoy the experimenting and getting it wrong as much as the getting it right, whatever that means :shrug:I have a simple philosophy. If it works for you use it / get it. If it doesn't don't.

When I teach a friend of mine has a good phrase that she uses, 'academic masturbation'. It is usually used in relation to debates where people go around and around and use all kinds of reasoning to evidence their point of view. It doesn't mean that they are right or wrong. But the general concensus is that as with most forms of masturbation, it is generally best done in the comfort and privacy of your own home, and usually alone :D

To use the term codswallop in relation to another person's point of view and generalise about americans on DP review appears to me to be a strange way of implying that you are 'cool' with any point of view and accepting of others.

I am not trying to insult anybody or start an argument, but wouldn't want this happy TP family of which I visit every day and learn so much to become like 'other' forums that are "elitist", "dismissive" and "blinkered"!!!!:D

Off out now to weigh my lens, look at 100% crops and think about changing my system. Only joking, just out to take a few pictures on this beautiful autumn day:thumbs: Go on, you know you want to!

Chris :)
 
Chris and Simon, my apologies for the term codswallop - maybe it's a regional thing, but it's a term not meant to cause offence [unlike, say "c*bblers", which I think goes down pretty badly round here]:nuts:

Anyway, as for the DPreview comment, I had the misfortune to post something ages ago on dpreview in part of another thread, and was rudely criticised along with others for suggesting it - by some Americans [and anyone who knows me knows I'm a regular visitor to the USA, and have a great many US friends and, indeed, some US family - not that I've ever visited them..]. Again, offence not meant. I'll edit my post to cause no further misunderstanding in a moment.

I know it sounds petty, but please understand that as someone who has owned the 24-105, it's disappointing to be on the lookout for a standard zoom and finding that my best bet is the older AF lens PsiFox suggested. There is a real gap in the market, and I wonder how many potential customers Nikon has lost to the competition because they see the 24-105 as obtainable, compared to the larger f/2.8 Nikkor.

Anyway, Peace. Couple of cups of coffee should calm me down...
 
Chris and Simon, my apologies for the term codswallop - maybe it's a regional thing, but it's a term not meant to cause offence [unlike, say "c*bblers", which I think goes down pretty badly round here]:nuts:

Anyway, as for the DPreview comment, I had the misfortune to post something ages ago on dpreview in part of another thread, and was rudely criticised along with others for suggesting it - by some Americans [and anyone who knows me knows I'm a regular visitor to the USA, and have a great many US friends and, indeed, some US family - not that I've ever visited them..]. Again, offence not meant. I'll edit my post to cause no further misunderstanding in a moment.

I know it sounds petty, but please understand that as someone who has owned the 24-105, it's disappointing to be on the lookout for a standard zoom and finding that my best bet is the older AF lens PsiFox suggested. There is a real gap in the market, and I wonder how many potential customers Nikon has lost to the competition because they see the 24-105 as obtainable, compared to the larger f/2.8 Nikkor.

Anyway, Peace. Couple of cups of coffee should calm me down...


Hi Dan, no problem. Enjoy that cup of coffee. Your original post was asking a valid question for you and others may learn from that :thumbs:

Chris :)
 
No problem... sipping away right now. Lensflare, I'd try and edit the 'codswallop' out, but every replacement phrase I can think of sounds, to me anyway, less benign, less congenial. Hmmm, maybe I'll just edit it out altogether, and replace it with 'I don't buy it'. I still don't, by the way, but I see your post was in jest, and I fell for it... call me 'Sucker of the day' for Friday 31st October...
 
You don't have to edit anything out on my behalf....I am a big boy with broad shoulders! You have nothing to apologise for either - it is only a bit of fun and banter, even if your original question was a serious one - you won't always get a serious answer, not from me anyway.....sometimes you will.

I know the C & thing winds a few folks up----so I played on it! Perhaps it should be me apologising for taking the mickey out of your question.

BUT - the elitist thing is true. Nikon users are, of course, the better photographers in the pack.
 
BUT - the elitist thing is true. Nikon users are, of course, the better photographers in the pack.
:thinking:

Although not a Nikonian, I was having a similar conversation with my Brother-in-law last night. We're both Canon users, although his kit bag is much fuller than mine.

Canon male 4 different 70-200 "L" lenses, two at f2.8, two at f4, with an option for IS in either. I'm confused over which to go for personally, although I'm leaning towards the 2.8 IS plus a 2x converter. But the F4 versions are much smaller & lighter (but can't be used with a 2x TC)

So, it's not all glory over this side, we have so many it makes it hard to decide which one to chose :lol:

Steve
 
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