Why I sometimes hate Britain

Rubbish....... utter rubbish.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion (although it would appear I'm not entitled to mine without insult).

Person A hits Person B. Person C hits Person A.

How is Person C any 'better' than Person A?
 
Simmotino said:
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion (although it would appear I'm not entitled to mine without insult).

Person A hits Person B. Person C hits Person A.

How is Person C any 'better' than Person A?

If person C hits A hard enough then person A will not be able to hit person D or E or F....
 
If person C hits A hard enough then person A will not be able to hit person D or E or F....

Riiiiiight, and if Person C actually hits Person G *thinking* it was Person A?

Person C is no better than Person A. GBH is GBH which ever way you look at it. Just because someone in a silly wig says it's 'OK' doesn't make it any less so.
 
Apologies for the off topic post, but:

I'm not sure if 25% of SA men are rapists, that sounds like an exaggeration

This was the result of a survey done two or so years back. It created quite a stir in the media both in ZA as well as here in the UK, so I'm actually surprised this is the first you've heard of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#South_Africa

More than 25% of South African men questioned in a survey admitted to raping someone; of those, nearly half said they had raped more than one person, according to a new study conducted by the Medical Research Council (MRC).

Charming, eh?
 
onona said:
Right.

So what you're saying is that the UK should ignore the last few centuries of enlightenment and the understanding we've gained through criminology and social studies over the decades, and basically become like the Taliban.

I'm saying they should be publicly punished to send out the message.

Your criminolgy and social studies have gained nothing if acts like this against a innocent elderly lady are still taking place . Am empty argument in my book.
 
Your criminolgy and social studies have gained nothing if acts like this against a innocent elderly lady are still taking place . Am empty argument in my book.

Social studies enable us to understand many of the root causes of criminal behaviour. How we choose to use that information is the key - at present, much of what we have learned and understand is not being considered or implemented within the prison system or indeed the welfare system in this country, because kids are still growing up in poor conditions where they are exposed and subjected to criminal influences.

Public beatings will do nothing to change that.

Furthermore, the judicial system is in place to ensure that trials and punishments are based on objective evidence and that sentences are based on what is dictated by law. This is what justice is, and it ensures that everyone is treated fairly. Publicly beating people is not justice, it is revenge, an act not generally considered a virtue.

Furthermore, where do you propose these supposed enforcers of justice be recruited from? Oh yeah, there are loads of places I can think of to find angry, violent people who are eager to inflict suffering and humiliation on others. Funnily enough, they're exactly the same places that those standing trial for violent crimes tend to come from. Oh, the irony.

It never ceases to amaze me how those filled with a bloodlust for revenge ignore the facts.
 
Apologies for the off topic post, but:

This was the result of a survey done two or so years back. It created quite a stir in the media both in ZA as well as here in the UK, so I'm actually surprised this is the first you've heard of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#South_Africa

Charming, eh?

That's OK, it's not the first time I've heard of it, and you don't need to be surprised. I just don't trust surveys like this, and the findings are bizarre. The links suggest that survey sample was 1738 men, in KZN and the Eastern Cape. This is a tiny number to base the conclusions on.
 
onona said:
Social studies enable us to understand many of the root causes of criminal behaviour. How we choose to use that information is the key - at present, much of what we have learned and understand is not being considered or implemented within the prison system or indeed the welfare system in this country, because kids are still growing up in poor conditions where they are exposed and subjected to criminal influences.

Public beatings will do nothing to change that.

Furthermore, the judicial system is in place to ensure that trials and punishments are based on objective evidence and that sentences are based on what is dictated by law. This is what justice is, and it ensures that everyone is treated fairly. Publicly beating people is not justice, it is revenge, an act not generally considered a virtue.

Furthermore, where do you propose these supposed enforcers of justice be recruited from? Oh yeah, there are loads of places I can think of to find angry, violent people who are eager to inflict suffering and humiliation on others. Funnily enough, they're exactly the same places that those standing trial for violent crimes tend to come from. Oh, the irony.

It never ceases to amaze me how those filled with a bloodlust for revenge ignore the facts.

It's quite simple really. Some people are just 'bad' and should be removed from the human gene pool.

I remember a lot of people applauding the deaths of Saddam and Ghadafi. Double standards eh!
 
I remember a lot of people applauding the deaths of Saddam and Ghadafi. Double standards eh!

Presumably, those same people would have no objection to your proposal then, unless you are referring to someone in particular in this thread? :shrug:
 
Simmotino said:
Presumably, those same people would have no objection to your proposal then, unless you are referring to someone in particular in this thread? :shrug:

As I said... 'double standards'
 
As I said... 'double standards'

Well that doesn't really answer the question, but I guess you mean 'double standards' in the same way it would be 'double standards' for GBH one way between two people to be perfectly acceptable, but not the other?
 
Splog said:
It's quite simple really. Some people are just 'bad' and should be removed from the human gene pool.

I disagree but that's clear already.

I remember a lot of people applauding the deaths of Saddam and Ghadafi. Double standards eh!

You won't find me among those. I was disgusted by the treatment of both of them as well as Bin Laden. Barbarism holds humanity back.
 
Simmotino said:
Well that doesn't really answer the question, but I guess you mean 'double standards' in the same way it would be 'double standards' for GBH one way between two people to be perfectly acceptable, but not the other?

What question?

And no! One is the action of an individual, the other is a response by society to protect itself.
 
What question?

The one about your referring to someone in particular.

And no! One is the action of an individual, the other is a response by society to protect itself.

Oh, so does one give the other a kicking in a different way to the other then? :thinking:

I didn't realise there where two types of GBH.
 
Simmotino said:
The one about your referring to someone in particular.

.

Oh,that one. I didn't consider it worthy of response and still dont.
 
Oh,that one. I didn't consider it worthy of response and still dont.

Fair enough, but surely it can only be double standards if someone currently opposing the suggested beating was celebrating the treatment meted out to SH & CG, hence the question.
 
And so am I. I feel the current prison system does little to rehabilitate convicts. I also feel that many sentences are extremely lenient in terms of length.



I didn't say that poverty alone makes people into criminals. It is a combination of a variety of factors which can contribute towards people turning to crime. For the overwhelming majority of people convicted for violent crime - and this is a fact now, not an opinion - the individuals responsible did not suddenly go from being ordinary people from ordinary backgrounds to being killers. There is almost always a long trail of abuse and deprivation which leads to it. This is an indisputable fact, demonstrated by countless studies. And I am not using this to excuse their behaviour, but rather to explain the context in which their attitudes towards others have developed. A child who grows up in a violent environment is far more likely to believe that violence solves problems than a child who grows up in a normal environment. Combine that with emotional problems from broken families, abusive parents, poverty, poor education (many violent criminals have low IQs) and other social problems and you have an explosive recipe for problematic people. Look at countries that have higher standards of living and less deprivation; you'll always find they have lower rates of violent crime too.



Treating people as if they're subhuman is likely to reinforce their behaviour though. In much the same way as a dog who is treated cruelly by its owner is likely to become vicious and attack others, a huge part of the criminal mindset is insecurity and the problems that come with that; if you continue to treat the person poorly, you'll reinforce the feelings of inadequacy and resentment which will likely make the behaviour even worse. Why do you think so many criminals have such a high rate of re-offending? The solution to most criminals isn't to lock them away in a dank dungeon, depriving them of their human rights and feeding them scraps of bread and water; on the contrary it's a matter of educating them, and putting them to work so that they can form a productive identity in which they have a role to fulfill in society.

Of course I am aware that this isn't a magical solution that will work for everyone, but I'm very much in favour of making prisons a productive place where inmates are not only provided with skills and discipline, but are also put to work to pay for their room and board. As an example, some American prisons have been very successful in cultivating their own crops which keep costs down and gives the inmates something to do. This in turn reduces violence within the prison itself, gives the prisoners a sense of purpose by keeping them busy, and teaches them skills they can actually use when they are released, which reduces the number of potential re-offenders.

Such a very upsetting story of an elderly women who held on desperately to her husband’s ashes, who didn't give a rats arse of the money in her purse and that died protecting the one thing she cherished the most. May they R.I.P

You’re not kidding! Length is what it’s all about and knowledge of it. Have a public announcement through TV, as this would seem to me to be the medium where most "subhuman" beings will watch it. Petit crime such as shop lifting and bag snatching = 5 years + (must serve dependent success of new found education.) The rest give ‘em the full Monty = life means life. Let’s see then where the crime stats are in a few years.

You say "i didn't say that poverty alone makes people turn to crime." but you go into detail on it. So the rich or intelligent are incapable of crimes similar to the poor/uneducated? Are you trying to pull the wool over my eyes? Are you saying people with money or/and intelligence are not capable of such petit nous or heinous crimes?

Also, are you absolutely sure about the reform in American prisons? I mean if that’s the case then it sounds really cushdy to get three squares a day, get a education and become reformed from ‘the crime I committed,’ by working and respecting myself. You know what reform is to me in these circumstances? It's a way to forgive yourself and move on from the nasty crime that you committed and a whole hearted middle fingere to the victims who never had a choice. What a joke!

So in my view as stated, tougher sentencing with advertisement is a step in the right direction. failing that...........String 'em up!
 
onona said:
Social studies enable us to understand many of the root causes of criminal behaviour. How we choose to use that information is the key - at present, much of what we have learned and understand is not being considered or implemented within the prison system or indeed the welfare system in this country, because kids are still growing up in poor conditions where they are exposed and subjected to criminal influences.

Public beatings will do nothing to change that.

Furthermore, the judicial system is in place to ensure that trials and punishments are based on objective evidence and that sentences are based on what is dictated by law. This is what justice is, and it ensures that everyone is treated fairly. Publicly beating people is not justice, it is revenge, an act not generally considered a virtue.

Furthermore, where do you propose these supposed enforcers of justice be recruited from? Oh yeah, there are loads of places I can think of to find angry, violent people who are eager to inflict suffering and humiliation on others. Funnily enough, they're exactly the same places that those standing trial for violent crimes tend to come from. Oh, the irony.

It never ceases to amaze me how those filled with a bloodlust for revenge ignore the facts.

This is why Judicial system need a huge kick up the arsh .

So how would you deal with the individuals guilty of this hideous crime dealt to this poor defenceless elderly lady who was left to DIE!! on the pavement whilst her attackers are spending her money .
 
This is why Judicial system need a huge kick up the arsh .

So how would you deal with the individuals guilty of this hideous crime dealt to this poor defenceless elderly lady who was left to DIE!! on the pavement whilst her attackers are spending her money .

With a bacon buttie for breakfast, cheese sarnie for lunch, roast chicken and 4 veg for the evening, followed by a heart to heart from a specialist in murder reform.....apparently! :gag:
 
Onoa/Leigh, please do not be offended but your ideas are now outdated and we need change, we have tried them for 60 years and the time has come for us to have some proper deterrents back.

These two scroats did not give a damn for this woman, they only cared about themselves. Are you saying we should ask the world to say...awwww they need the money for a new xbox game....bless.

Get real, they try anything if they think there are NO repercussions.

Real Deterrent, Real Deterrent, Real Deterrent.

Today's scroats are breeding a harder scroat, we need to stop them NOW before we lose all dignity of society. (this is not dictatorship or sharia law or morality injustice but a democracy where MOST of the people want to see a tougher line on criminal activity especially violence - FACT!!!
 
tiler65 said:
Onoa/Leigh, please do not be offended but your ideas are now outdated

And this is from the guy who wants us to go back to stocks and public executions. But I'm the one with outdated views?

Clearly you get your "facts" from The Daily Mail, not actual research and studies conducted by experts.

I'll leave you guys to your pitchforks, torches and medieval barbarism then, because clearly there is no sensible, rational and informed discussion to be had here.
 
And this is from the guy who wants us to go back to stocks and public executions. But I'm the one with outdated views?

Clearly you get your "facts" from The Daily Mail, not actual research and studies conducted by experts.

I'll leave you guys to your pitchforks, torches and medieval barbarism then, because clearly there is no sensible, rational and informed discussion to be had here.

Actually I am saying the last 60 years of liberal deterrents have not worked. We need another solution. Read my posts. Whether my ideas work is another matter but your ideas are obviously not working so change IS needed.

EDIT re the stocks........ What is wrong with publicly humiliating a person who has done this crime? Give me some facts on why it is wrong.

Edit 2 I never mentioned public executions did I?

Edit 3 You can't blame the Daily Mail for everything , their prize crossword is quite tough.
 
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Honestly, the Daily Mail overtones in this thread would be amusing if they weren't a tragic sign of the unnecessary hysteria that is becoming all too common these days. In the grander scheme of things, the UK has a very manageable rate of crime - yes, this story about this elderly woman is horrifying, but is this happening on a daily basis? No. So why totally reform punishment laws and revert back a few centuries in terms of judicial methodology?

I bet if you collected one weeks local paper from every town in the country you'd find the evidence that wouldn't be far off that statistic for very much similar crimes.
Around 35 yrs ago my grandfather was the victim of an attempted mugging by two lads, he too was late 70's if it weren't for the fact he was tall and in no way frail that he was able to shake them off (one had jumped onto his back hanging onto his shoulders) and they ran away empty handed. He no longer felt like his morning walk through the park after that.

People may well not like the idea of corporal punishment, but the people who commit these crimes would not understand anything else and other punishments would be wasted on them.
 
And this is from the guy who wants us to go back to stocks and public executions. But I'm the one with outdated views?

Clearly you get your "facts" from The Daily Mail, not actual research and studies conducted by experts.

I'll leave you guys to your pitchforks, torches and medieval barbarism then, because clearly there is no sensible, rational and informed discussion to be had here.


Clearly you believe all that you read ,our survey says and all that ,just a tad blinkered in my humblest opinion.

String em up
 
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Actually I am saying the last 60 years of liberal deterrents have not worked. We need another solution. Read my posts. Whether my ideas work is another matter but your ideas are obviously not working so change IS needed.

EDIT re the stocks........ What is wrong with publicly humiliating a person who has done this crime? Give me some facts on why it is wrong.

Edit 2 I never mentioned public executions did I?

Edit 3 You can't blame the Daily Mail for everything , their prize crossword is quite tough.

+ 1

Your right about the daily mail's crossword :D
 
As I said in my earlier post, you do not need to string them up (well maybe in some cases) just make a place where they do not want to go to.

As said alot of people who commit crimes either get away with it or let off on a technicality etc etc would not want to go to a "proper" jail, a one where by they got punished for their crimes as opposed to sitting around laughing and joking and conjouring up their next crime, or who can get the highest score on sonic, so after being in once and being punished for their crimes they might just think twice about going back in.

people who commit crime repeatedly no matter what they get sent too will never change so just get them off the streets and never let them out, simples.
People who commit serious crimes like the one that this thread is about, need to be just locked up and left there for a very long time, take their liberties away the same way as they have done to their victims.



spike
 
We should do a prisoner exchange scheme with Turkey, Ukrainne and the like. See if our criminals would want to re-offend after doing a stint over there.
 
Our prisons are a home from home ,no way are they a deterrent for these kind of animals . Hard labour in Antarctica ******* naked (and I'm not joking)

Can't get the picture of the old dear lying on the pavement in her last moments out of my mind,sad I know ,I don't know her ,just can't stop thinking what if it had been my mother or aunt makes me shiver .

My thoughts are with her family
 
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Just made it through this thread and my eyes are stinging. A lot of different opinions about this matter none are right and none are wrong. The fact of the matter is that there has not been and there possibly will not be any ultimate deterrent to crime of any kind let alone murder. You can bring back capital punishment, you can bring back execution, public stoning and the stock, but it will never stop crime from happening. Because people who set out to do the crime always believe they are going to get away with it or they wont do it. So if there was some sort of ultimate solution to stopping all crime short of putting behavioural implants in peoples necks then crime will continue and the police will still be in work. This isnt restricted to the uk and i challenge anyone to come forward to show us a country (not an unpopulated island) where a system does work to the point where there is no crime of any kind nor a police force or prison in place.

I have worked briefly in the prison system and a lot of you seem to be mixed up and confused with what the media seem to tell you about prisoners sitting in their rooms on xboxes. It simply does not happen like that. All prisoners are given a basic room with a very basic tv that only has 5 channels. They misbehave and it gets taken away, they also have to pay a weekly wage in order to earn said TV. Xboxes are not allowed in prisons because of the hard drive (sneak information in and out of the prison unchecked) and the possibility to connect to the internet unauthorized with the use of a wifi mobile phone concealed in a place that should only be used as an exit. In fact the only consoles ever seen in a prison are the old school ps 2 consoles and Only the model prisoners who have worked their asses off hard doing prison labor and keeping their nose extra clean for a LONG amount of time were only ever granted these as a reward. In a prison with a typical population of 500 only about 10 actually get to use a console. Believe it or not but its actually a psychological trick when you are down on your luck in a prison for a long time, being shown extra rewards like these give prisoners hope that you get rewarded for good behavior and so by being good on the outside will give you more of a reward. Just like when you and I work very hard we see rewards too.

You may not agree or believe this, but I didn't make the rules and like it or not, it is the way it is.
 
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Ok xboxes in their rooms might be a little far fetched BUT what exactly is a basic room??? last program I seen was a womans prison and she had curtains up at the large window, a lovely soft bed with a quilt and soft pillows, bed side cabinate, etc etc.

Now tell me if I am wrong but that does not seem basic to me.

My mind of basic was probably the cell in which was in Porrage with Ronnie Barker. Green brick walls, thin mattress etc etc.

spike
 
fracster said:
We should do a prisoner exchange scheme with Turkey, Ukrainne and the like. See if our criminals would want to re-offend after doing a stint over there.

By that logic turkey/ukraine etc. should have a very low re-offender rate. I'd be interested to see how their rates compare to our own because I have truly no idea whether their tougher prisons are in any way more effective than ours.
 
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Where this happened is irrelevant the thread should be titled:

Why I hate the human race sometimes
 
By that logic turkey/ukraine etc. should have a very low offender rate. I'd be interested to see how their rates compare to our own because I have truly no idea whether their tougher prisons are in any way more effective than ours.


Might be more interesting to see how many go back in after their first stint.

spike
 
Xboxes are not allowed in prisons because of the hard drive (sneak information in and out of the prison unchecked) and the possibility to connect to the internet

when was the last time you worked in the system?

A friend of mine is a forensic psychologist in a prison and the prisoners can rent a ps3 or Xbox each week? It must depend on the prison type.
 
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SpikeK6 said:
Might be more interesting to see how many go back in after their first stint.

spike

Sorry, re-offender was what I had meant to type!
 
Just made it through this thread and my eyes are stinging. A lot of different opinions about this matter none are right and none are wrong. The fact of the matter is that there has not been and there possibly will not be any ultimate deterrent to crime of any kind let alone murder. You can bring back capital punishment, you can bring back execution, public stoning and the stock, but it will never stop crime from happening. Because people who set out to do the crime always believe they are going to get away with it or they wont do it. So if there was some sort of ultimate solution to stopping all crime short of putting behavioural implants in peoples necks then crime will continue and the police will still be in work. This isnt restricted to the uk and i challenge anyone to come forward to show us a country (not an unpopulated island) where a system does work to the point where there is no crime of any kind nor a police force or prison in place.

I have worked briefly in the prison system and a lot of you seem to be mixed up and confused with what the media seem to tell you about prisoners sitting in their rooms on xboxes. It simply does not happen like that. All prisoners are given a basic room with a very basic tv that only has 5 channels. They misbehave and it gets taken away, they also have to pay a weekly wage in order to earn said TV. Xboxes are not allowed in prisons because of the hard drive (sneak information in and out of the prison unchecked) and the possibility to connect to the internet unauthorized with the use of a wifi mobile phone concealed in a place that should only be used as an exit. In fact the only consoles ever seen in a prison are the old school ps 2 consoles and Only the model prisoners who have worked their asses off hard doing prison labor and keeping their nose extra clean for a LONG amount of time were only ever granted these as a reward. In a prison with a typical population of 500 only about 10 actually get to use a console. Believe it or not but its actually a psychological trick when you are down on your luck in a prison for a long time, being shown extra rewards like these give prisoners hope that you get rewarded for good behavior and so by being good on the outside will give you more of a reward. Just like when you and I work very hard we see rewards too.

You may not agree or believe this, but I didn't make the rules and like it or not, it is the way it is.
I have also worked in prisons, I know they have game consoles...I do not personally have one and if I am mistaken on brand then I am sorry because they all look similar when there are 10 people huddled around one in a cell, smoking and laughing as if I were the bad person in their room.
 
Sorry Joe, it is my thread, my title and it is why I SOMETIMES hate Britain.

I know it is. I'm just pointing out that the title is incorrect. The Britain part is irrelevant.

You are always a straight talker so I know you'll appreciate my candidness :thumbs:
 
joescrivens said:
I know it is. I'm just pointing out that the title is incorrect. The Britain part is irrelevant.

You are always a straight talker so I know you'll appreciate my candidness :thumbs:

How's the Britain part irrelevant ? Did it not happen in Britain ?
 
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