Why I sometimes hate Britain

Utter scum ,and should be publicly beaten to within an inch of their pathetic ****** little lives ,why o why do we allow such crimes to take place in our society ,all the poor dear was doing was going about her business .

Dare anyone come on here and side with these parasites of society ,also their parents should be taken to task about this awful awful act of cowardliness .
 
I agree with everyhting said....but i dont agree with the subject line :( show me a country where nothing bad happens?
 
A very tragic story - that's for sure, and like you say, it's not the kind of thing you'd hear about when we were growing up. However, it doesn't seem to be unique to Britain. An uncle of mine having lived in Spain for numerous years says the youngsters there can be just as troublesome in certain areas. Very sad times indeed.
 
KIPAX said:
I agree with everyhting said....but i dont agree with the subject line :( show me a country where nothing bad happens?
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I don't live anywhere else and this crime was committed in Britain.

I know bad things happen everywhere, I just don't want them to happen where I live.
 
Simmotino said:
Which would make us no better than them.
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Not necessarily as we do need punishments for crimes and sat watching TV and playing xbox smoking weed in an 8ft by 12ft room is obviously not enough of a deterrent.
 
KIPAX said:
I agree with everyhting said....but i dont agree with the subject line :( show me a country where nothing bad happens?
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I gotta say in all honesty there is a MASSIVE difference in how I feel in regards to my personal security here compared to the UK.
 
KIPAX said:
I agree with everyhting said....but i dont agree with the subject line :( show me a country where nothing bad happens?
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Well it could be argued that nothing whatsoever happens where I am ;)

More seriously though, violent street robbery in this vein is practically unheard of here. Sure there's crime, but it tends to be more like pickpocketing, purses stolen from open bags, unattended bags stolen etc. It's very rare that thefts are confrontational.

I'm not saying violent crime never happens, it does, but when it does, it makes national headlines.

Anyway Britain doesn't have the monopoly on this kind of thing. In France and Germany it's pretty rife as well.
 
I grew up in a very poor area of Tyneside and this happened when I was young, it also happened before during and after the war. It is nothing new. And it also happens everywhere. You'd probably be ok on a small island I guess. I'd rather stay and try to help stop it happening than run away to somewhere safer.
 
Simmotino said:
Ah, so because we're doing it to 'punish' them, we can assume the moral high ground when inflicting grievous bodily harm?

It's an interesting concept, I'll grant you.
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Why else would you use corporal punishment? The name says it all.
 
Simmotino said:
Ah, so because we're doing it to 'punish' them, we can assume the moral high ground when inflicting grievous bodily harm?

It's an interesting concept, I'll grant you.
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How do you suggest it's dealt with?
 
Splog said:
How do you suggest it's dealt with?
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I don't profess to having the answer, but 'playing them at their own game' for want of a better expression makes us no different to them IMO, and therefore just as bad as them.

Just because we choose to hide the action behind the veil of 'justice' doesn't make the action any different IMO.
 
KIPAX said:
but i dont agree with the subject line :( show me a country where nothing bad happens?
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This.

Britain is tame compared to many other places. I lived for 25 years in a country where one in four men is a rapist. Where baby rape is so common that it doesn't even make the front page of the papers. Where murder is such an everyday occurrence that all of us know at least one person who has been murdered. Where the current Chief Justice once tried to explain that a child rape case had "mitigating factors" because the man who had raped the young girl wasn't earning a good salary, and had been careful to avoid hurting her excessively:

Mogoeng has ruled for reduced sentences in child rape trials, stating that the non-violent nature of the rape negates the seriousness of the offense:

"One can safely assume that [the accused] must have been mindful of [the victim's] tender age and was thus so careful as not to injure her private parts, except accidentally, when he penetrated her. That would explain why the child was neither sad nor crying when she returned from the shop, notwithstanding the rape. In addition to the tender approach that would explain the absence of serious injuries and the absence of serious bleeding, he bought her silence and cooperation with Simba chips and R30."
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I could go on, but I won't bother.

Hate the crimes, not the places where they happen.
 
The question about moral high grounds? If so, read below.

It is nothing to do with the moral high ground but punishment for heinous crimes.

If there were no deterrent at all it would become ever more lawless so we need one. The one in place at the moment is not working so wee need a change. Corporal punishment is another solution for the punishment. I am all for public stocks to be brought back too, I reckon this will be a superb start to the slowdown of such attacks.

My mother was mugged a few years ago fortunately she was not physically hurt too badly but emotionally she changed for the worse and this affected her normal day to day routine of menial tasks like corner shop shopping.

Morally we need a punishment yes.
 
Simmotino said:
I don't profess to having the answer, but 'playing them at their own game' for want of a better expression makes us no different to them IMO, and therefore just as bad as them.

Just because we choose to hide the action behind the veil of 'justice' doesn't make the action any different IMO.
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I totally agree. Violence does not solve crime; if anything, it just adds to it.
 
onona said:
I totally agree. Violence does not solve crime; if anything, it just adds to it.
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Again, it is your opinion and not fact.

Please do not deviate to other countries...I am talking about Britain.
 
tiler65 said:
Not necessarily as we do need punishments for crimes and sat watching TV and playing xbox smoking weed in an 8ft by 12ft room is obviously not enough of a deterrent.
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This is the answer, Take it all away, lock them up in their rooms for longer periods during the day, make them work hard make it a place they NEVER want to go back too. screw their human rights they lost them the moment they tried to take the bag off the lady. Prison should be a place you do not want to go to, not the place you go to be with your mates and do not mind going back too.

Knew a lad who said he prefered prison to his own home, it was warm it was clean it was not damp, he got three good meals a day and wanted for nothing, strange mentality he had but it all changed when he got serious time in Durham

Duram prison had a real bad rep years ago as the place you never wanted to get sent, why??? because it did not have luxuries, it was damp it was cold it was not a nice place to be, they got treated like prisoners not some person that needs a slap on the wrist, i have spoke to people who have been there and they say they never want to go back. So on that note it does work, prison works if its a place no body wants to go to.

That lad got sent there and changed his ways, he never wanted to go back to it.

spike
 
tiler65 said:
Again, it is your opinion and not fact.
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Err, actually if you look into this, there's a huge wealth of statistics out there which demonstrate that capital punishment does not deter crime. In fact, as an example, murder rates are higher in US states that have capital punishment than those who do not.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-about-deterrence-and-death-penalty

Of course I cannot make this example using the UK, because the UK does not have capital punishment. But the same logic can be applied to corporal punishment.

You mentioned bringing back stocks earlier? Are you serious? You want the entire country to revert back to a medieval form of punishment? In what way is that moving forward as a civilisation? Furthermore, if stocks were such a deterrent, surely they would never have had to use them, right? The very fact that these various barbaric punishments are regularly used starkly demonstrates their utter failure to act as a deterrent.

Honestly, the Daily Mail overtones in this thread would be amusing if they weren't a tragic sign of the unnecessary hysteria that is becoming all too common these days. In the grander scheme of things, the UK has a very manageable rate of crime - yes, this story about this elderly woman is horrifying, but is this happening on a daily basis? No. So why totally reform punishment laws and revert back a few centuries in terms of judicial methodology?

I'm not a bleeding heart; I believe that there should be consequences for crimes. But at the same time, you cannot ignore the patterns that we see in the majority of criminals - people who come from deprived backgrounds, abusive childhoods, violent surroundings and other negative factors. These things breed criminally-minded people, and should be the primary focus in the battle to deal with the problem of crime. Simply punishing crime does nothing to combat the attitudes that lead to people committing them; that story in the BBC yesterday about the burglar who wrote a rude letter to the owner of the house he burgled just demonstrates the root of the problem of so much crime in this country: a sense of entitlement and a lack of respect for others that has developed in certain parts of our society, largely as a result of the factors I mentioned above. Beating people or putting them in stocks does not create respect. On the contrary is breeds fear and resentment.
 
onona said:
; that story in the BBC yesterday about the burglar who wrote a rude letter to the owner of the house he burgled just demonstrates the root of the problem of so much crime in this country: .
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Yes I heard that on the radio too. (you see what I did there ? :D)
It just goes to prove that the guy has no fear of the law.
The punishment should fit the crime!
In that instance, hung drawn and quartered may be a tad excessive though.

And that fact that he cannot take responsibility for his own actions,
(they left the window open so it was their fault),

proves the system in place is not working.
Its about time the law got tough on these scum bags.
 
Simmotino said:
Which would make us no better than them.
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you cant compare a bit of tough justice to assaulting an elderly woman leading to her death.

:bat:

"no officer he must have tripped over.."

:suspect:

only way scum learn. unless you consider, as mentioned above, sitting in a room playing xbox for what will probably be an minimum sentance.
 
Nothing works on people that don't believe they will be caught or punished. You are assuming these scum actually *think*. They don't.

Plenty of people I know were brought up with nothing and they did not behave like this. It's an excuse. You don't need to be well off to understand the difference between right and wrong.

If someone cannot obey society's rules and behave in a civilised manner you shove them away in prison to rot. If they're in there then they're not out here ruining the country for decent people. If you let them out and they do it again then they go back for a much longer time. If they're in prison they're not out here re-offending.
 
The worst thing about this, is if they get caught, they will likely only be done for manslaughter instead of murder. Muggers should get huge prison sentences because of the huge psychological damage it does to victims, as with all crimes that make people scared to walk outside their home. Where people sadly die, it should be murder by default and full life sentence (as it should also be for anyone who intentionally kills anyone).
 
onona said:
Err, actually if you look into this, there's a huge wealth of statistics out there which demonstrate that capital punishment does not deter crime. In fact, as an example, murder rates are higher in US states that have capital punishment than those who do not.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-about-deterrence-and-death-penalty

Of course I cannot make this example using the UK, because the UK does not have capital punishment. But the same logic can be applied to corporal punishment.

You mentioned bringing back stocks earlier? Are you serious? You want the entire country to revert back to a medieval form of punishment? In what way is that moving forward as a civilisation? Furthermore, if stocks were such a deterrent, surely they would never have had to use them, right? The very fact that these various barbaric punishments are regularly used starkly demonstrates their utter failure to act as a deterrent.

Honestly, the Daily Mail overtones in this thread would be amusing if they weren't a tragic sign of the unnecessary hysteria that is becoming all too common these days. In the grander scheme of things, the UK has a very manageable rate of crime - yes, this story about this elderly woman is horrifying, but is this happening on a daily basis? No. So why totally reform punishment laws and revert back a few centuries in terms of judicial methodology?

I'm not a bleeding heart; I believe that there should be consequences for crimes. But at the same time, you cannot ignore the patterns that we see in the majority of criminals - people who come from deprived backgrounds, abusive childhoods, violent surroundings and other negative factors. These things breed criminally-minded people, and should be the primary focus in the battle to deal with the problem of crime. Simply punishing crime does nothing to combat the attitudes that lead to people committing them; that story in the BBC yesterday about the burglar who wrote a rude letter to the owner of the house he burgled just demonstrates the root of the problem of so much crime in this country: a sense of entitlement and a lack of respect for others that has developed in certain parts of our society, largely as a result of the factors I mentioned above. Beating people or putting them in stocks does not create respect. On the contrary is breeds fear and resentment.
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You are talking about 2 different things.

Is prevention better than the cure - of course. If more can be done to stop these things happening, of course it should.

The point is once these things happen, people should be punished. It's easy to label people as Daily Mail readers (I've done it myself in the past) but the fact (well my opinion!) is that plenty of people in this country do not feel the punishments for these sorts of crime are tough enough. I'm one of them.

I've been to plenty of countries around the world with no benefits system, no social care, poorer health and education systems etc, and people in those countries seem to be able to not go around like this - being poor is not an excuse and is an insult to the majority of people in this country who know right from wrong.

Re the stocks, you may think it is ridiculous, but a bit of public shaming might be one of the only thing that hits home with some of these people.

It might not seem like it, but I do agree with most of the sentiment in your post! :)
 
akr said:
The worst thing about this, is if they get caught, they will likely only be done for manslaughter instead of murder.
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Of course they will be tried for manslaughter; murder is not the act of killing of a person, it is a legal term to describe a premeditated act in which a person's life is taken. In a judicial context, what these kids did is not murder. You wouldn't try a street mugger for burglary - these are legal definitions so let's not start treating them as emotive words.
 
akr said:
The point is once these things happen, people should be punished. It's easy to label people as Daily Mail readers (I've done it myself in the past) but the fact (well my opinion!) is that plenty of people in this country do not feel the punishments for these sorts of crime are tough enough. I'm one of them.
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And so am I. I feel the current prison system does little to rehabilitate convicts. I also feel that many sentences are extremely lenient in terms of length.

I've been to plenty of countries around the world with no benefits system, no social care, poorer health and education systems etc, and people in those countries seem to be able to not go around like this - being poor is not an excuse and is an insult to the majority of people in this country who know right from wrong.
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I didn't say that poverty alone makes people into criminals. It is a combination of a variety of factors which can contribute towards people turning to crime. For the overwhelming majority of people convicted for violent crime - and this is a fact now, not an opinion - the individuals responsible did not suddenly go from being ordinary people from ordinary backgrounds to being killers. There is almost always a long trail of abuse and deprivation which leads to it. This is an indisputable fact, demonstrated by countless studies. And I am not using this to excuse their behaviour, but rather to explain the context in which their attitudes towards others have developed. A child who grows up in a violent environment is far more likely to believe that violence solves problems than a child who grows up in a normal environment. Combine that with emotional problems from broken families, abusive parents, poverty, poor education (many violent criminals have low IQs) and other social problems and you have an explosive recipe for problematic people. Look at countries that have higher standards of living and less deprivation; you'll always find they have lower rates of violent crime too.

Re the stocks, you may think it is ridiculous, but a bit of public shaming might be one of the only thing that hits home with some of these people.
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Treating people as if they're subhuman is likely to reinforce their behaviour though. In much the same way as a dog who is treated cruelly by its owner is likely to become vicious and attack others, a huge part of the criminal mindset is insecurity and the problems that come with that; if you continue to treat the person poorly, you'll reinforce the feelings of inadequacy and resentment which will likely make the behaviour even worse. Why do you think so many criminals have such a high rate of re-offending? The solution to most criminals isn't to lock them away in a dank dungeon, depriving them of their human rights and feeding them scraps of bread and water; on the contrary it's a matter of educating them, and putting them to work so that they can form a productive identity in which they have a role to fulfill in society.

Of course I am aware that this isn't a magical solution that will work for everyone, but I'm very much in favour of making prisons a productive place where inmates are not only provided with skills and discipline, but are also put to work to pay for their room and board. As an example, some American prisons have been very successful in cultivating their own crops which keep costs down and gives the inmates something to do. This in turn reduces violence within the prison itself, gives the prisoners a sense of purpose by keeping them busy, and teaches them skills they can actually use when they are released, which reduces the number of potential re-offenders.
 
onona said:
Of course they will be tried for manslaughter; murder is not the act of killing of a person, it is a legal term to describe a premeditated act in which a person's life is taken. In a judicial context, what these kids did is not murder. You wouldn't try a street mugger for burglary - these are legal definitions so let's not start treating them as emotive words.
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You know very well what I mean.

If you want to take that line though you might also not want to make statements like 'what these kids did is not murder' as they've not been found guilty of anything yet.

Anyhoo enough jovial debate for one day. Just enough light left to head out for some photos!
 
akr said:
Anyhoo enough jovial debate for one day. Just enough light left to head out for some photos!
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**Cough** **Splutter**
You cannot be serious, thats the most controversial post in this thread so far!

:D

Disphotic said:
An eye for an eye, like sharia law?
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I mean proper punishment, such as serving the community in some way.
Put back something from thoughs they have taken from.
Be that society or individual.
(however that may deemed proportionate)
And not playing on games consoles, watching DVDs
doing masters degree's via the OU and all paid for by us tax payers.

Mind you, that would be punishment enough, for me if i had to play one for
12 hours a day :(

And of course lets not forget Sheriff Joe ;)
 
Simmotino said:
Which would make us no better than them.
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Rubbish....... utter rubbish . Seems to be a standard reply on this forum these days . Again they should be named and publicly beaten and made an example of,it's about time this world grew balls and send a signal out there that this type of crime will not!!! be accepted on any terms.

These animals will probably get a couple of hours community service and doing the same thing again and again .

There needs to be a deterrent put in place ,a bit of fear if you like . Youngsters nowadays that take part in these gruesome crimes have no respect whatsoever . They need to be taken out of our society ,there's no place for them .
 
akr said:
You know very well what I mean.

If you want to take that line though you might also not want to make statements like 'what these kids did is not murder' as they've not been found guilty of anything yet.
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I think you missed the point of my post entirely :/
 
mxfun said:
Rubbish....... utter rubbish . Seems to be a standard reply on this forum these days . Again they should be named and publicly beaten and made an example of,it's about time this world grew balls and send a signal out there that this type of crime will not!!! be accepted on any terms.
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Right.

So what you're saying is that the UK should ignore the last few centuries of enlightenment and the understanding we've gained through criminology and social studies over the decades, and basically become like the Taliban.
 
onona said:
Right.

So what you're saying is that the UK should ignore the last few centuries of enlightenment and the understanding we've gained through criminology and social studies over the decades, and basically become like the Taliban.
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I'm all for Change.
 
onona said:
This.

Britain is tame compared to many other places. I lived for 25 years in a country where one in four men is a rapist. Where baby rape is so common that it doesn't even make the front page of the papers. Where murder is such an everyday occurrence that all of us know at least one person who has been murdered. Where the current Chief Justice once tried to explain that a child rape case had "mitigating factors" because the man who had raped the young girl wasn't earning a good salary, and had been careful to avoid hurting her excessively:


I googled that but came up with zilch. Mind telling me what country your referring to so I don't book a total nightmare holiday!
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onona said:
Right.

So what you're saying is that the UK should ignore the last few centuries of enlightenment and the understanding we've gained through criminology and social studies over the decades, and basically become like the Taliban.
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Well! All that enlightenment and understanding hasn't worked... Time for a change. Bring back public executions.
 

'Britain is tame compared to many other places. I lived for 25 years in a country where one in four men is a rapist. Where baby rape is so common that it doesn't even make the front page of the papers. Where murder is such an everyday occurrence that all of us know at least one person who has been murdered. Where the current Chief Justice once tried to explain that a child rape case had "mitigating factors" because the man who had raped the young girl wasn't earning a good salary, and had been careful to avoid hurting her excessively:'

I googled that but came up with zilch. Mind telling me what country your referring to so I don't book a total nightmare holiday!

It's South Africa. The murder rate is around 18,000/year. That's the known cases, and doesn't include culpable homicide (manslaughter). Two of my friends were murdered there. One died when he stopped at a petrol station late at night, and walked into a robbery inside the forecourt shop. He was shot in the face. The other was helping his sister to move house, and he was shot when he tried to protect her. Both cases happened about three years ago. I'm not sure if 25% of SA men are rapists, that sounds like an exaggeration, but rape is common, and baby rape happens often enough. The quote from the Chief Justice is accurate. The figures for armed robbery and vehicle hijacking are frightening too.

Anyway, that doesn't really add anything to this thread, but I thought I would post it as you asked the question. FWIW, I don't think that harsh punishment is inappropriate where violence is involved.
 
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