Why do car keys cost so much?

StewartR

StewartR

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We've lost one of the keys to our VW Golf so I went along to the VW dealer today to order a replacement. £159 for the key, plus £65 to program it!!! How on earth can such prices be justified?

Also, apparently it takes about 45 minutes to do the programming. So on top of the cost I've got to factor in 45 minutes of hanging around on Saturday. Why does it take so long, for heaven sake? What are they actually doing, writing machine code by hand?
 
StewartR said:
We've lost one of the keys to our VW Golf so I went along to the VW dealer today to order a replacement. £159 for the key, plus £65 to program it!!! How on earth can such prices be justified?

Also, apparently it takes about 45 minutes to do the programming. So on top of the cost I've got to factor in 45 minutes of hanging around on Saturday. Why does it take so long, for heaven sake? What are they actually doing, writing machine code by hand?
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They have to program to the car itself. It means a monkey plugs in a laptop into the obdii port and they delete the key you lost/doesn't work any more and add the new one. If you have a working one I think you can get them cloned. If it was easy even more of these VWs would be stolen without keys...
 
srichards said:
They have to program to the car itself. It means a monkey plugs in a laptop into the obdii port and they delete the key you lost/doesn't work any more and add the new one.
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So that's a 5 minute job, tops. I wonder what they do for the other 40 minutes?
 
ecoleman said:
I'd imagine the price is also inflated to discourage would be thieves from ordering sets of keys.
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Interesting idea, but you need the V5C document before they'll let you order a replacement key, so I don't think it's a theft deterrent issue.
 
You can buy aftermarket keys and get them coded.

the problem you had was to head down to the VW Stealer :)

Got one for the Citroen a few years ago and it was £120 done outside the house.
 
StewartR said:
Interesting idea, but you need the V5C document before they'll let you order a replacement key, so I don't think it's a theft deterrent issue.
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You could probably get one off ebay for less than £30. Due to EU regulations anyone can program it for you. Hence why so many cars get pinched.
 
Mr Bump said:
You can buy aftermarket keys and get them coded.
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nilagin said:
You could probably get one off ebay for less than £30. Due to EU regulations anyone can program it for you. Hence why so many cars get pinched.
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Gosh. I had no idea. What's the point of all the security measures then, if they're so easy to circumvent?
 
nilagin said:
You could probably get one off ebay for less than £30. Due to EU regulations anyone can program it for you. Hence why so many cars get pinched.
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they still need coding to the car, so its not a theft issue.
The key is just a chip with a revolving security code with some encryption.

Access to the car with the right software to code it still needs to be done.
 
Mr Bump said:
they still need coding to the car, so its not a theft issue.
The key is just a chip with a revolving security code with some encryption.

Access to the car with the right software to code it still needs to be done.
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You are obviously unaware anyone can buy the coding equipment.
 
StewartR said:
Gosh. I had no idea. What's the point of all the security measures then, if they're so easy to circumvent?
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To separate you from your cash.
 
StewartR said:
So that's a 5 minute job, tops. I wonder what they do for the other 40 minutes?
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Thats to take the whole process over the half-hour so that they can bill you for a full hours labour. As has been said it probably takes all of 5 minutes in reality. and even if it does take longer the engineer doesnt have to stay there gormlessly looking at it after pressing "program".
 
That's what's great about my import, none of this chipped key and immobiliser nonsense that was mandatory in UK cars at the time, my keys cost me £7!
 
Wife bought a car a few weeks ago, test drove it using the spare key which is normal practice. We were happy and decided to go for it, when I asked if the other key was def remote central locking he stated there was only one key as the previous owner lost the original.

I called the deal off and the dealer went nuts stating it was a small matter and breaking the deal was poor on my part. £165 on top of a £6K purchase is not a small matter.

He then tried fobbing me off with an aftermarket one for £130 but eventually came back with tail between his legs and knocked £100 off the car which I begrudgingly accepted.

If she hadn't have had her heart set on the car I'd have happily walked away from the deal.

It took 10days to come from France (Citroen) and my wife had to drive 35miles to the nearest dealer to program it.
 
dan_yorkshire said:
Wife bought a car a few weeks ago, test drove it using the spare key which is normal practice. We were happy and decided to go for it, when I asked if the other key was def remote central locking he stated there was only one key as the previous owner lost the original.

I called the deal off and the dealer went nuts stating it was a small matter and breaking the deal was poor on my part. £165 on top of a £6K purchase is not a small matter.

He then tried fobbing me off with an aftermarket one for £130 but eventually came back with tail between his legs and knocked £100 off the car which I begrudgingly accepted.

If she hadn't have had her heart set on the car I'd have happily walked away from the deal.

It took 10days to come from France (Citroen) and my wife had to drive 35miles to the nearest dealer to program it.
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Uh huh. If the dealer thought it was just 'a small matter', I might have asked him why he was making such a fuss about sorting it out at his own expense?
 
StewartR said:
So that's a 5 minute job, tops. I wonder what they do for the other 40 minutes?
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It's not a five minute job tops. I plug in vcds, an auto scan easily takes 10 minutes just by itself. Then decode the existing keys, code the new key, test, scan for errors, bringing th vehicle in and out, get the equipment in and out, etc.

If you can do it in five minutes, can you please code my new second key for the Audi and I'll pay you by the minute for five minutes. I'll double it when you get it done in five or nothing if you don't :)
 
I bought a demonstaator ix35 which only came with one key, new key arrived a week later so i took car in for the key to be coded, 25 mins later i was on my way home
 
Gary Coyle said:
I bought a demonstaator ix35 which only came with one key, new key arrived a week later so i took car in for the key to be coded, 25 mins late i was on my way home
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Having had one, I wouldn't touch another Hyundai with a 10m cattle prod.....even if it came with 100 keys.

The car is bad enough, but the customer service from Hyundai Canterbury, Maidstone and Rainham has been the worst experienced from any manufacturer...including Vauxhall, and that's saying something.
 
viv1969 said:
Having had one, I wouldn't touch another Hyundai with a 10m cattle prod.....even if it came with 100 keys.

The car is bad enough, but the customer service from Hyundai Canterbury, Maidstone and Rainham has been the worst experienced from any manufacturer...including Vauxhall, and that's saying something.
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Cant disagree, i got shot less than 2 weeks later, it simply wouldnt go in a straight line and as for what Hyudai call "leather" is an absolute joke, nothing more than cheap PVC
 
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dejongj said:
It's not a five minute job tops. I plug in vcds, an auto scan easily takes 10 minutes just by itself. Then decode the existing keys, code the new key, test, scan for errors, bringing th vehicle in and out, get the equipment in and out, etc.
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Can you do keys with VCDS? I've not used mine for anything more than reading fault codes. Only out of interest rather than need, as it's not my Audi with a broken key remote.

It does rather sit there chugging its way through all the modules when plugged in.
 
onomatopoeia said:
Can you do keys with VCDS? I've not used mine for anything more than reading fault codes. Only out of interest rather than need, as it's not my Audi with a broken key remote.

It does rather sit there chugging its way through all the modules when plugged in.
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As I understand it, yes and no. If you are lucky you could use it to decipher the existing key code as Audi and VW are a bit funny about giving out the codes these days. You can then use the same cable but another piece of software to do the coding.
 
I've found a place near me that can do a "copy" key for a vivaro.... £60
 
I was doing a website shoot for a locksmith. I asked if they wanted any particular bits of kit included and they pointed to a new shiny machine and said "loads of that". Why, what's so special about it? "It cost 90 grand.".

We totted up and the back wall of machines was something over 250k. And that was one wall of a high street shop.

So the more interesting question is "why do the machines cost so much" :D

locksmith.jpg
 
Mr Bump said:
oh I am but "you still need access to the car" to do the coding
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Depends on the make of car. If it has a rolling frequency signal in that it changes every time, the frequency can't be grabbed by a waiting thief. Thieves do have blockers which can prevent a car from being locked, if your in the habit of just pressing the lock button on the fob as you walk away from your car and not watching for the confirmation flash of the hazard lights, they are onto a winner. Then there is always the age old break a window method. For some obscure reason the EU has stated that the OBD port has to be within a certain distance of the steering wheel. So unless you move it yourself or take measures to actually lock it off, thieves will have very easy access to it from a broken drivers window. Even if the car has an alarm, there are dead areas inside the car that the alarm cannot cover. Thieves are well aware of these and make use of that knowledge so as not to set off the alarm.

My OBD port is moved, temporarily disabled and I have a big highly visual weighty steering wheel lock, hopefully thieves will see that and move on. If my car has been targeted which many of the make and model have, hopefully it is working.
 
JonathanRyan said:
So the more interesting question is "why do the machines cost so much" :D
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Probably because not everyone wants one so your customer base is limited. In order to make a profit you have to price it so customers will still pay, but it's worthwhile you manufacturing them.
The same would be for hospital equipment, the cost of manufacture isn't that high, but the customer base is low and the number of units you have to manufacture will be low as a result.
 
nilagin said:
Probably because not everyone wants one so your customer base is limited. In order to make a profit you have to price it so customers will still pay, but it's worthwhile you manufacturing them.
The same would be for hospital equipment, the cost of manufacture isn't that high, but the customer base is low and the number of units you have to manufacture will be low as a result.
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Yeah that's all true. Looking at them, they just seemed to be very limited variations of CNC machines that can each do one very specific thing. Client particularly wanted pictures not just because they were valuable but because very few local locksmiths had them. I reckon as a customer what I want to know they could make me a key not to know how many machines they had but at the end of the day I just push the button :D

nilagin said:
My OBD port is moved, temporarily disabled and I have a big highly visual weighty steering wheel lock, hopefully thieves will see that and move on. If my car has been targeted which many of the make and model have, hopefully it is working.
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Meanwhile I have a diesel Smart car. Nobody is going to nick that ;)
 
JonathanRyan said:
Yeah that's all true. Looking at them, they just seemed to be very limited variations of CNC machines that can each do one very specific thing. Client particularly wanted pictures not just because they were valuable but because very few local locksmiths had them. I reckon as a customer what I want to know they could make me a key not to know how many machines they had but at the end of the day I just push the button :D
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He must be a very busy locksmith, my concern would be how long it would take before the machines had paid for themselves and he was in profit.
JonathanRyan said:
Meanwhile I have a diesel Smart car. Nobody is going to nick that ;)
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Keep your fingers crossed. A girl my son was at school with had a Ka and a Fiesta stolen, both within 3 months of each other outside her parents house. It all depends what they want it for. If someone is short of a few Smart Car parts for a cheap repair and it is easy to steal, it's a target.
 
Maybe it's to stop people from losing them?

I always pull the door handle to ensure the door is locked when I press the fob.

IIRC there was a huge spate of burglaries of high end cars whereby a thief would smash the window, plug a laptop into the OBDII port and hack his way in. Similarly, someone I know had their BMW stolen off the driveway. He owned both keys as well as the valet key, and had taken it just once for its first service at the local dealer. New car.

I've since advised him to use a crooklock or similar.
 
I remember an issue not so long ago, about BMWs (and I imagine its the same for other high-end expensive (but rubbish) cars) where you dont need a key AT ALL. Just a laptop with bluetooth enabled and the right software. Stand within a few feet of the motor, run the software and bam, the doors unlock and you can drive that sucker away !
 
nilagin said:
He must be a very busy locksmith, my concern would be how long it would take before the machines had paid for themselves and he was in profit.
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Well......car keys are awfully expensive. And BOOM! we're back on topic :D
 
JonathanRyan said:
Well......car keys are awfully expensive. And BOOM! we're back on topic :D
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:) whilst the parts aren't necessarily demonstrable of the full cost, it is clearly the time of people around it to facilitate the replacements.
 
omens said:
I always pull the door handle to ensure the door is locked when I press the fob.
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If I did that the door would just as likely unlock again. Keyless entry. I just press my finger to the receiver in the door handle. The remotes never come out of my pocket.
Gary Coyle said:
Cant disagree, i got shot less than 2 weeks later,
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Bloody hell shooting someone for buying a Hyundai is just a tad extreme.
 
StewartR said:
So that's a 5 minute job, tops. I wonder what they do for the other 40 minutes?
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Key coding on a VW takes about 15-30 minutes, once you connect the diagnosis computer up you have to run a full fault check program, then key coding process, which automatically wipes all the old keys from the system then lets you code in your new and any existing keys you have, you have to do the immobiliser part, then you have to do the part for the remote's for the central locking, two separate ECU's. As for the rest of the time it'll probably be for the free health check they have to do unless you decline it. Where I work we quote half hour to do the keys.
 
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