Why are they bothering

a survey conducted by a centre right think tank of "more than a thousand" muslims , so if the sample was about a thousand the number of 16-24 year olds will have been about 200 , assuming they did an even split of age ranges... so what this really means is that arround 60 16-24 year olds think apostasy should be punishable by death... and from this they extrapolate to the whole population ... yeah okay
 
Laudrup said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6309983.stm
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Thank you. Its kind of old isn't it. Reflecting views from 8 years ago. And not a big sample. Especially if you're going to break the 10000 people sampled into further demographics. I though the suggestions were kind of interesting though

  • Stop emphasising difference and engage with Muslims as citizens, not through their religious identity


  • Recognise that the Muslim "community" is not homogenous, and attempts to give group rights or representation will only alienate sections of the population further

  • Stop treating Muslims as a vulnerable group. The exaggeration of Islamophobia does not make Muslims feel protected but instead reinforces feelings of victimisation and alienation

  • Encourage a broader intellectual debate in order to challenge the crude anti-Western, anti-British ideas that dominate cultural and intellectual life. This means allowing free speech and debate, even when it causes offence to some minority groups

  • Keep a sense of perspective. The obsession of politicians and the media with scrutinising the wider Muslim population, either as victims or potential terrorists, means that Muslims are regarded as outsiders, rather than as members of society like everyone else
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boyfalldown said:
thats true of any religion. All have their radicals and fundamentalists.
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We are facing a worldwide threat of terrorist attack from Islamic fundamentalists. Not Christians or Jews or Buddhists or Sikhs or any other religion. The polls after the Charlie Hebdo attacks quite clearly show that a significant number of Muslims polled thought violence against people who mock their prophet can be justified. You aren't dealing with the weak and woolly CofE who change as the wind blows.
 
Laudrup said:
We are facing a worldwide threat of terrorist attack from Islamic fundamentalists. Not Christians or Jews or Buddhists or Sikhs or any other religion. The polls after the Charlie Hebdo attacks quite clearly show that a significant number of Muslims polled thought violence against people who mock their prophet can be justified. You aren't dealing with the weak and woolly CofE who change as the wind blows.
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OK there are no Christian, Jewish, Buddishts or Sikh fundamentalists then or terrorists? You, personally are under about as much threat from IS as I am. IE pretty much none.
 
Laudrup said:
We are facing a worldwide threat of terrorist attack from Islamic fundamentalists. Not Christians or Jews or Buddhists or Sikhs or any other religion. The polls after the Charlie Hebdo attacks quite clearly show that a significant number of Muslims polled thought violence against people who mock their prophet can be justified. You aren't dealing with the weak and woolly CofE who change as the wind blows.
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This man shares your views

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIPD8qHhtVU
 
Laudrup said:
We are facing a worldwide threat of terrorist attack from Islamic fundamentalists. Not Christians or Jews or Buddhists or Sikhs or any other religion. The polls after the Charlie Hebdo attacks quite clearly show that a significant number of Muslims polled thought violence against people who mock their prophet can be justified. You aren't dealing with the weak and woolly CofE who change as the wind blows.
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no , we are facing many threats from many cultures and sources (just as we have since time imemorial) one of which is currently islamic fundamentalism , it is not however the only one.

As i've said before by pedalling this hysteria and by tarring all muslims with the same brush, you - and more importantly the journalists who shape your opinions, are doing exactly what IS want - they are a teemy tiny non account group who are as representative of islam as the LRA are of christianity - it is in our best interests to keep them that way not empower them as the big bad bogey man
 
boyfalldown said:
Thank you. Its kind of old isn't it. Reflecting views from 8 years ago. And not a big sample. Especially if you're going to break the 10000 people sampled into further demographics. I though the suggestions were kind of interesting though
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I'd doubt they got less extreme in their views unless there was some sea change in Islam that passed us all by since then. We asked what what they think and they told us. It can't be sugar coated or watered down because it isn't to our taste.
 
Laudrup said:
I'd doubt they got less extreme in their views unless there was some sea change in Islam that passed us all by since then. We asked what what they think and they told us. It can't be sugar coated or watered down because it isn't to our taste.
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you doubt it maybe. Its no current though. And 60 or so teenagers ok 16-24 years olds thinking something is not really indicative of very much. Thats not sugar coating
 
mjScall said:
Or they could of course grow up realising what nonsense it all is and simply leaving it all behind (as they obviously do, otherwise simple maths would suggest that fundamentalism would be growing exponentially)
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Might want to try turning on the news once in a while. Pretty sure I've seen some reports of Islamic fundamentalism and it growing rampantly these past oh, 14 years
 
Laudrup said:
Might want to try turning on the news once in a while. Pretty sure I've seen some reports of Islamic fundamentalism and it growing rampantly these past oh, 14 years
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rapidly is an entirely subjective value as we can all still agree that fundamentalists make up a tiny % of the overall population

One thing it certainly has not done is grow exponentially (as your theory of all children of radicals becoming radicals suggests) over the last 14 years

Maybe if you actually stopped reading the news and thought for yourself once in a while, obvious things like that would be clearer to you?
 
boyfalldown said:
you doubt it maybe. Its no current though. And 60 or so teenagers ok 16-24 years olds thinking something is not really indicative of very much. Thats not sugar coating
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The onus is on you to dispute the figures then. Show me your polls.
 
Laudrup said:
The onus is on you to dispute the figures then. Show me your polls.
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I'd say the onus would still be on you to provide a valid set of statistics (not gathered in a flawed/biased way) to back up your original 1 in 3 scaremongering?
 
If you think terrorist and radical fundamentalist muslims represent all muslims then it is logical to think that the Ku Klux Klan represents all Christians.


Steve.
 
mjScall said:
rapidly is an entirely subjective value as we can all still agree that fundamentalists make up a tiny % of the overall population

One thing it certainly has not done is grow exponentially (as your theory of all children of radicals becoming radicals suggests) over the last 14 years

Maybe if you actually stopped reading the news and thought for yourself once in a while, obvious things like that would be clearer to you?
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You can't move the goalposts to now say they only make up a small % of the overall population. That wasn't what you were arguing. Islamic fundamentalism is growing rapidly. People here or abroad are willing to go to Syria to live under it. The daughter of Abase Hussen went to Syria and he was caught on camera at a march chanting burn America and other things and had the cheek to blame the police. I wonder where she got those ideas about IS and radical Islam?

As I said, try watching or reading some news and realise what is going on. Sitting about dreaming up theories is fine but don't try and make them fit the facts.
 
mjScall said:
I'd say the onus would still be on you to provide a valid set of statistics (not gathered in a flawed/biased way) to back up your original 1 in 3 scaremongering?
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I already posted the BBC link and they state where they got the information. How can I add any more information than that?
 
Laudrup said:
What Klan? The 1st? The 2nd? The 3rd?
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Pedantry. They are merely more modern iterations of the same organisation, not different organisations.
 
viv1969 said:
Pedantry. They are merely more modern iterations of the same organisation, not different organisations.
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If it was the same it wouldn't be called the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Klan would it? These weak Klan analogies make little sense in the context of Islamic extremism anyhow.
 
Laudrup said:
The onus is on you to dispute the figures then. Show me your polls.
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I've already disputed the figures. And shon that survery is out of date (its 8 FFS, hardly represents modern thinking) and doesn't have enough of a sample size. I'll explain for you (again). You sampled 1000. About 13% of the UK is 15-24. Assuming the sample represents the structure of the UK as a whole then thats 130 people. of that you have 60 people (a very generous 36%) who aren't exactly a good sample
 
Laudrup said:
If it was the same it wouldn't be called the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Klan would it? These weak Klan analogies make little sense in the context of Islamic extremism anyhow.
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why do you think saying the KKK is no more representative of christians then IS is of Muslims is so weak?
 
Laudrup said:
If it was the same it wouldn't be called the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Klan would it? These weak Klan analogies make little sense in the context of Islamic extremism anyhow.
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You really need to do some research.
 
boyfalldown said:
I've already disputed the figures. And shon that survery is out of date (its 8 FFS, hardly represents modern thinking) and doesn't have enough of a sample size. I'll explain for you (again). You sampled 1000. About 13% of the UK is 15-24. Assuming the sample represents the structure of the UK as a whole then thats 130 people. of that you have 60 people (a very generous 36%) who aren't exactly a good sample
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The executive summary from a full referenced 101 page report with methodology backed up or your unqualified hunch? I think I'll go with the report thanks all the same. Even if it was back in the prehistoric age of 2007 when nobody alive can even remember.
 
boyfalldown said:
why do you think saying the KKK is no more representative of christians then IS is of Muslims is so weak?
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Your lazy argument is equating it with all Muslims. IS or al qaeda can survive as there is a tolerance of the ideology in these Muslim countries and even a significant amount of Muslims in the UK polled are tolerant or sympathetic of the more barbaric acts of terrorists or sharia. I doubt many Christians are tolerant of the 3rd KKK in the USA never mind the UK.
 
Laudrup said:
The executive summary from a full referenced 101 page report with methodology backed up or your unqualified hunch? I think I'll go with the report thanks all the same. Even if it was back in the prehistoric age of 2007 when nobody alive can even remember.
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my unqualified hunch? Thats they used 1,000 respondents? OK then. I guess I didnt need to read all 101 pages to glean this bit

Key findings from a survey by the centre-right think tank, Policy Exchange, of more than 1,000 Muslims living across the UK.
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and 2007 is current is it?
 
Laudrup said:
Your lazy argument is equating it with all Muslims. IS or al qaeda can survive as there is a tolerance of the ideology in these Muslim countries and even a significant amount of Muslims in the UK polled are tolerant or sympathetic of the more barbaric acts of terrorists or sharia. I doubt many Christians are tolerant of the 3rd KKK in the USA never mind the UK.
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Its not a lazy argument. Its a question. There you go again though. Making assumptions.
 
Laudrup said:
Your lazy argument is equating it with all Muslims. IS or al qaeda can survive as there is a tolerance of the ideology in these Muslim countries and even a significant amount of Muslims in the UK polled are tolerant or sympathetic of the more barbaric acts of terrorists or sharia. I doubt many Christians are tolerant of the 3rd KKK in the USA never mind the UK.
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about 60 of them in fact - do you seriously think you couldnt find 60 young americans sympathetic to the current KKK if you went and conducted your poll in the deep south ?

come to that what about the barbaric acts commited in the name of christianity by the lords resistance army in uganda ? - can we consider them to be representative of all christians in the same way that you seem to think IS represent all muslims
 
Anyone who wants to demonstrate extremism or fundamentalism is welcome to leave, but please don't expect to come back!
 
Laudrup said:
Might want to try turning on the news once in a while. Pretty sure I've seen some reports of Islamic fundamentalism and it growing rampantly these past oh, 14 years
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Laudrup said:
We are facing a worldwide threat of terrorist attack from Islamic fundamentalists. Not Christians or Jews or Buddhists or Sikhs or any other religion. The polls after the Charlie Hebdo attacks quite clearly show that a significant number of Muslims polled thought violence against people who mock their prophet can be justified. You aren't dealing with the weak and woolly CofE who change as the wind blows.
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Sorry but people who believe like yourself that Muslims are the enemy are part if the problem and only make the situation worse by encouraging racism
All of the Muslims that I have known and met have all been ordinary decent people
I think that you will find that the majority of Muslims hate isis as much as you do
of course isis are a threat but encouraging racism isn't the best way of dealing with it
I'm not saying that you are racist of course but believe that you are wrong believing that all Muslims are the enemy
 
Overexposed said:
Anyone who wants to demonstrate extremism or fundamentalism is welcome to leave, but please don't expect to come back!
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I agree with you, but, at risk of sounding like a daily mail reading mum, don't you think their children deserve protecting from this?
 
LCPete said:
you are wrong believing that all Muslims are the enemy
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Its like those pillocks in america who thought that a good retaliation to 9/11 would be a nuclear strike on Mecca... because that won't turn all of islam to the terrorists side against the west or anything ?:bang:
 
h14nha said:
I wish I was joking, these people tell their children their god will reward them for blowing themselves up and killing non muslims.
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Some people tell their children that a round white wafer is the body of a bloke that lived 2000 years ago. Doesn't make them right, nor does it mean that their children will believe it, or, even if they believe it as infants, continue to believe it as adults.

Amazingly, people can think for themselves and decide what they believe, rather than just go on thinking the same as their parents.
 
big soft moose said:
about 60 of them in fact - do you seriously think you couldnt find 60 young americans sympathetic to the current KKK if you went and conducted your poll in the deep south ?

come to that what about the barbaric acts commited in the name of christianity by the lords resistance army in uganda ? - can we consider them to be representative of all christians in the same way that you seem to think IS represent all muslims
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That Muslim conversion is forbidden and punishable by death: Total 31%

You have polls that have data that is weighted to be representative of the known population and this sample size calculator shows how many people you need to ask:

http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm

They don't use 1060-1100 for no good reason. Test it yourself.

As for the LRA if you can work out what their ideology is can you please tell them.
 
Did we not have this conversation a few weeks back?
 
you would have a point if we could be certain that the 1000 were chosen honestly and radomnly - however you don't get a fair reading if you choose you 1000 muslims by standing outside a selection of mosques (for example) - do we know by what process the 1000 in this survey were chosen ?

also the way in which the questions are asked (and what other questions precede them) can predjudice the answer - again we lack data to know how the survey was conducted

however given that it was carried out for a rightwing think tank who are hardly objectve, i have doubts about the scientific honesty of the survey.
 
big soft moose said:
you would have a point if we could be certain that the 1000 were chosen honestly and radomnly - however you don't get a fair reading if you choose you 1000 muslims by standing outside a selection of mosques (for example) - do we know by what process the 1000 in this survey were chosen ?

also the way in which the questions are asked (and what other questions precede them) can predjudice the answer - again we lack data to know how the survey was conducted

however given that it was carried out for a rightwing think tank who are hardly objectve, i have doubts about the scientific honesty of the survey.
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We know scholars from the Middle East or the UK are pumping out hate and propaganda and the penalties for apostasy in some Islamic countries is very severe. Thinking the methodology in polls must be flawed in bizarre ways or people were tricked doesn't add up. The much more logical answer is a significant amount believe in these punishments under sharia. No tricks or sugar coating it.
 
boyfalldown said:
I agree with you, but, at risk of sounding like a daily mail reading mum, don't you think their children deserve protecting from this?
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I don't think you can - its unfortunate but how could you stop indoctrination from family members
 
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