Why are so many of you on 1.6 crop cameras?

Okay.....here's something a little "definitive" on the subject of sensor versus lens resolution. Firstly a couple of comments from me....
1) I'm quoting this primarily because it agrees with my assessment :D
2) Part of the mathematics involved hasn't penetrated my grey matter yet and may never successfully do so :'(
3) Just because it's published on the web doesn't mean it's a fact...but, as it agrees with me, it's good enough ;)
4) I didn't arrive at the same conclusion using the same method...my workings were a bit numpty in comparison.

Luminous Landscape have published a paper entitled "Do sensors outresolve lenses" http://luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/resolution.shtml

For those folk no wishing to trawl through the science of Airy discs, circle of confusion, Bayer masks and the Nyquist-Shannon theorem, I'll simply quote from the final part of the paper.

You have all the data at hand, but take the green-yellow light and f/8-f/11 aperture values as a reference. It represents a realistic, not too demanding case. Consider a 35mm system with a lens at f/11. At best, the maximum resolution you will get is equivalent to 16 MP, even if your camera has 22 or 25 MP. In the case of an APS-C based system the limit goes to 7 MP, and 4 MP considering a Four Thirds format. Stopping down to f/22 the limit of the effective resolution of the 35mm based system goes to 4 MP!

and then

So, do sensors outresolve lenses? It depends on the lens you use, the properties of the light, the aperture and the format. Small format sensors may have surpassed the limit, this is, in most cases they are lens-limited in terms of resolution. It is easier to correct aberrations for a smaller light circle though, so you can approach diffraction-limited resolutions for lower f-numbers. The signal-to-noise ratio, however, imposes an inflexible limit to the effective resolution of the whole system, mostly due to photon shot noise.

The underlying message here is not to spend you hard earned cash on pixels alone......although other features in a new body may be worth the outlay. If you're fullframe and at 16MP then you're doing the best you can in normal circumstances. On a 1.6 crop body, the first 7MP is the real value for your money and raising the pixel count should be combined with increasing the glass quality...if it is indeed available. For a 1.3x crop then 12MP looks like a goodly amount to see you through.

HTH

Bob
 
How tempted am I? :)

But I'm going to be good and just say thanks for the info CB, kind of vindicates my logic in buying a 1Ds MKII. At 16MP it's pretty spot on (Oh and I love the damn thing anyway :))
 
How tempted am I? :)

But I'm going to be good and just say thanks for the info CB, kind of vindicates my logic in buying a 1Ds MKII. At 16MP it's pretty spot on (Oh and I love the damn thing anyway :))

Isn't that a Canon?

If so, I'm glad to see you're so easily appeased with your obvious lack of quality

:nuts::nuts::nuts:

DD
 
Seems my not so scientific test wasn't too far off the mark then. With good glass, the right light, lucky rabbits foot and a trailing wind the smaller sensor can grab at a bit more detail :thumbs:
 
Well, if the OP hasn't slashed his wrists by now.... ;)

Here's a direct comparison of the 50D and 1DMK3, both taken at 20 feet with the Canon 500mm F4L IS - the 50D with a 1.4X TC and the 1DMK3 with a 2X TC.... and not taken by me I hasten to add.

http://www.pbase.com/kingfisher/image/103739600/original

Loads of sample shots in that post btw.
 
Ive just been looking through the "Show your gear" thread and firstly am shocked at the amount of "Gear Heads" there are in this forum...

Secondly its weird to me that so many people has stuck with 30D's/40D's/450D's etc, and put huge investment into nice lens's. Is the 1.6 crop preferable for action shooting?

what is it that has stopped so many of you, including professionals to not move to full frame?

It just seems like the natural progression to me but maybe Im wrong.


Welcome to the forum, now where did I put that can of worms smily? :)
 
Well, if the OP hasn't slashed his wrists by now.... ;)
It seems that diffraction is preventing him finding anything sharp enough :lol:

Here's a direct comparison of the 50D and 1DMK3, both taken at 20 feet with the Canon 500mm F4L IS - the 50D with a 1.4X TC and the 1DMK3 with a 2X TC.... and not taken by me I hasten to add.
This is a question, not a statement....
Does the first image have any merits unless we accept that a 2x T/C has no more image degradation than a 1.4x T/C ?

Dog with bone springs to mind here ;)

Bob
 
It seems that diffraction is preventing him finding anything sharp enough :lol:


This is a question, not a statement....
Does the first image have any merits unless we accept that a 2x T/C has no more image degradation than a 1.4x T/C ?

Dog with bone springs to mind here ;)

Bob

Who's the dog with the bone though?

It patently obvious that the merit of the left hand shot is that it's the larger1:1 image. The left hand image is also clearly sharper, and would have been taken a whole stop faster than the right hand one. How many merits do you want?

Waaay too much pixel peeping and not enough togging. ;)
 
Yes this can of worms certainly is a big one, its more of a worm farm Id say.

I think Im going to buy a 5D2 and crop away at everything that doesnt satisfy my long reach needs. (of which there are not many, so I feel I can justify it.)
 
Yes this can of worms certainly is a big one, its more of a worm farm Id say.

I think Im going to buy a 5D2 and crop away at everything that doesnt satisfy my long reach needs. (of which there are not many, so I feel I can justify it.)
The 5D2 wouldn't be a bad choice at all for you if your needs aren't predominantly in the use of long lenses, in fact it would only be just a tad behind the 40D, which can't be bad. The same would be true of the 1DSMK3, but of course it's a lot more wonga.
 
Who's the dog with the bone though?

That would be me :)

Waaay too much pixel peeping and not enough togging. ;)

Watch this space....I took an identical shot this morning with a 30D, 50D, 5D and 1DMkII...same settings, everything. I'll post them up later in a new thread...no processing or anything, just cropped to the same view....should make an interesting comparison.

Bob
 
That would be me :)



Watch this space....I took an identical shot this morning with a 30D, 50D, 5D and 1DMkII...same settings, everything. I'll post them up later in a new thread...no processing or anything, just cropped to the same view....should make an interesting comparison.

Bob

sweet, looking forward to it....
 
Hehe surprised this thread is still going.

Found this comparison i did myself ages ago now to demonstrate what sensor sizes do. It also happens to show lots more detail in the 30D shot.
(linking because the pic is over 800 pixels)

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn237/Werecow/sensorsize.jpg

Next i have taken a crop of each of the sides of that picture and scaled the 1d side to the 30D's field of view.
If the larger sensor did capture the same detail as the crop camera the two images should look roughly the same....

30D
30D.jpg


1D
1dresized.jpg


As you can see the fine detail of the 1D picture is drastically lower than the 30D. Most noticeable in the hair.

This is the outcome of every test i've done like this and what i see in real-world photos as well.
 
To keep the fire alive,

I chose my camera because of two things
A. Lack of knowledge (not a lot, but just enough)
B. Wasn't allowed to have anything more expensive
 
I chose my camera because of two things
A. Lack of knowledge (not a lot, but just enough)
B. Wasn't allowed to have anything more expensive

Interesting....that's how I chose my wife ;)

Bob
 
I've just trawled through this thread and must admit I haven't read every single post :shrug: but here's my 2p's worth :D

I have a 30D 1.6 crop prints up to A3 comfortably
and I would like a FF = comfy print size would be more? (sorry dont kow how much) X.6 larger?:thinking:

So surely the benefit of FF is that you will be able to get better 'print quality from a FF and by that I mean if you view an image from both crop and FF from the same distance that produced at 1X will be of higher quality than that at 1.6 :thinking:

Sorry guys if I'm talking carp tell me to go away :D
 
I have read every single post in this thread - but I really wish I hadn't :(!

I was all set to splash out on a D700 (in favour of the D300), as I believed everything that I'd read (prior to this thread) about the "benefits" of larger sensors.

Instead of constructing my own (flimsy) arguments, perhaps I could just post these two links for you all to comment on ....

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/cmos/technology-e/size.html

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/full-frame-advantage.htm

Mr. Rockwell's argument seems to be backed up with a couple of fairly conclusive images, too :|.

I dunno, it's all making my head spin :nuts:.
 
I have read every single post in this thread - but I really wish I hadn't :(!

I was all set to splash out on a D700 (in favour of the D300), as I believed everything that I'd read (prior to this thread) about the "benefits" of larger sensors.

Instead of constructing my own (flimsy) arguments, perhaps I could just post these two links for you all to comment on ....

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/cmos/technology-e/size.html

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/full-frame-advantage.htm

Mr. Rockwell's argument seems to be backed up with a couple of fairly conclusive images, too :|.

I dunno, it's all making my head spin :nuts:.

Go play, see what you like. I would NEVER go back to crop. Have only been taking photos a year, 4 or 5 months of it on CROP. The rest on Full Frame. My photography changed when I got the D3.

Gary.
 
This is about photography not image manipulation.

Hark the herald angels sing..............I've spent the last 3 years or more thinking I'm the only person that thinks that.

In answer to the question, I bought my D3 for it's low light/high ISO capabilities not it's FF sensor. I also have a D2H. The sensor doesn't really matter to me as I do all of my composition in the viewfinder not in the office. You'll always need more reach to fill the frame so someday you'll need to compose a shot around your subject because you won't be able to make your shot with the subject filling the frame (unless of course Photoshop is your best friend rather than your camera);) .

Just think back a few short years to the days when cameras were very basic and had zero the features that we have today. Did that stop those photographers from making 'memorable' images that alot of us still pine over....no.

If you're not producing memorable images from todays highly advanced kit, believe me it's not the FF sensor or 1.5/1.6 crop, or even Photoshop 7 vs CS4 that's your problem.......It's the feature that no microchip or updated version can help with..........i.e. it's the "object" holding the camera

Buy what you can afford, buy what you want.....and then go emulate those people who had none of the gubbins you have in your new toy.

Guy
 
Glad this thread surfaced again, if only to finally read Bob's sci-fi stuff.... love it Bob! I can just hear Raymond Baxter presenting that LOL!

Some good science there though and not the usual amateur second guessing based on what people have read from internet forums...

Guy, I'm with you to some degree on that one, if only because I'd sooner spend time at the track than sat in front of my computer (because I do enough of that already!).

I did wonder whether the D3X was actually the nail in your coffin though - shoot everything with a 24-70 and crop the crap out of it in photoshop, in fact, don't even aim too much either... but I think Bob's science bit has cast doubt on this as a valid technique (LOL!)

Is the effective resolution capabilities of lenses normally listed in the specs? Can't say I've ever noticed...
 
Would my 24-70 Nikon 2.8 lens be a 24-70 on a D3 then or would I have to buy the FF equivelent.
 
In answer to the original posting, the main reason is the cost, it might be worth going FF for professional photographers with loads of cash to splash. Many of us are not in this league and saved hard to get the equipment we have. That is the simple direct answer.

Realspeed
 
I have read every single post in this thread - but I really wish I hadn't :(!

I was all set to splash out on a D700 (in favour of the D300), as I believed everything that I'd read (prior to this thread) about the "benefits" of larger sensors.

Instead of constructing my own (flimsy) arguments, perhaps I could just post these two links for you all to comment on ....

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/cmos/technology-e/size.html

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/full-frame-advantage.htm

Mr. Rockwell's argument seems to be backed up with a couple of fairly conclusive images, too :|.

I dunno, it's all making my head spin :nuts:.

Hi Andy

Not sure really what point you're making :) but both those links explain the real benefits of FF over crop cameras :thinking:

Steve
 
Would my 24-70 Nikon 2.8 lens be a 24-70 on a D3 then or would I have to buy the FF equivelent.
Wrong way round... your 24-70 would be exactly that on a full frame camera. On a 1.5 crop camera it would be the equivalent of a 36-105 lens as far as the field of view is concerned.

The actual focal length doesn't change of course.
 
excellent, When Im doing team shots Im always crouched behind the others waiting for them to finish, If I get in their little scrum to get the pic Im always too close. Im hoping for d3 and poss the 14-24 lens too, That will sort the buggers out, hehe
 
Wrong way round... your 24-70 would be exactly that on a full frame camera. On a 1.5 crop camera it would be the equivalent of a 36-105 lens as far as the field of view is concerned.

The actual focal length doesn't change of course.

Yep I understand that but worded it wrongly, i meant as per Gary replied, Would that same lens appear wider on the d3?
 
Yep I understand that but worded it wrongly, i meant as per Gary replied, Would that same lens appear wider on the d3?

Yep - of course, you'd see everything that you currently see on your crop sensor camera, but with a lot more field of view all around in addition - quite substantially more in fact.
 
I went crop because I was £2.5k short of affording what I wanted Full Frame. Simple really.
 
Here you go...

3113675129_be9832059a_o.jpg


The bird shot is a 1.6X crop sensor shot. The black bg represents the additional field of view you'd see all around the bird with a full frame sensor Obviously that becomes a big disadvantage for me filling the frame with small birds, but for landscapes, group shots etc, the advantage is obvious.
 
Hi Andy

Not sure really what point you're making :) but both those links explain the real benefits of FF over crop cameras :thinking:

Steve

Hi Steve!

Thanks for your response. Quite simply, the majority of this thread appears to me (and maybe I've got it all wrong ;)) to be posts from cropped sensor users, extolling the virtues of the smaller sensor. I don't see anyone here making claims anywhere near as bold as those in my (previously posted) links, regarding the "superior performance" of FF sensor cameras :thinking:.

I can easily appreciate that people (who are, no doubt, speaking from experience) mean well when they say, "Go out and try everything until you find what's right for you", but quite frankly, that isn't a realistic option for me :|. This forum seems like the best place to ask "those kind" of questions, when you're fairly new to something and just need some guidance.

I just want to try and understand what the real differences are between the two systems and which one is likely to emerge as the dominant sensor format in the future (if indeed, things will ever go that way)!? As you said Steve, both links present very strong arguments in favour of the image quality and sharpness of FF sensors - why then, I am not hearing anyone say the same!? That's the cause of my confusion.

I did try to ask a question about lenses for use with FF cameras earlier on, but it didn't attract much of a response (not confrontational enough, perhaps ;)). Think I'll go back and *bump* it :D ....
 
It's been lack of choice from the manufacturers as opposed to personal choice, I'm a Nikon user and a full frame alternative is a relatively new offering with the the D3 and D700 being the only options, both of which carry a hefty price tag. I wasn't sure how I would get on with the lack of 'reach' on a FF sensor (and before anyone starts nit-picking you know what I mean :D) but I find I am rarely using my D300 these days even for my equine work.

You also have to factor in the cost of changing lenses, I have a couple of DX lenses and to replace them with FX equivalents will cost £2k+ which is huge commitment on top of an already expensive camera change. In time I will probably go totally FF but may keep one DX sensor body for certain occasions.

I agree wholeheartedly, I am a Nikon man and the Full frame sensor may be a recent development, thus it is new technology which comes with a hefty price tag. I am perfectly happy with my d200 for now. While sometimes I wish I could get even wider with the 10-20sigma, I like the fact 300 becomes 450 or so when shooting track action at Silverstone etc..;)
 
Hi Steve!

Thanks for your response. Quite simply, the majority of this thread appears to me (and maybe I've got it all wrong ;)) to be posts from cropped sensor users, extolling the virtues of the smaller sensor. I don't see anyone here making claims anywhere near as bold as those in my (previously posted) links, regarding the "superior performance" of FF sensor cameras :thinking:.

I can easily appreciate that people (who are, no doubt, speaking from experience) mean well when they say, "Go out and try everything until you find what's right for you", but quite frankly, that isn't a realistic option for me :|. This forum seems like the best place to ask "those kind" of questions, when you're fairly new to something and just need some guidance.

I just want to try and understand what the real differences are between the two systems and which one is likely to emerge as the dominant sensor format in the future (if indeed, things will ever go that way)!? I did try to ask a question about lenses for use with FF cameras earlier on, but it didn't attract much of a response (not confrontational enough, perhaps ;)). Think I'll go back and *bump* it :D ....

LOL. As long as people seem to jump to the conclusion that full frame is necessarily better by virtue of the fact that it is full frame, or that it cost more dosh, so it must be better, then confusion will reign on this issue.

Crop Sensor

Put simply, a crop sensor has massive advantages for wildlife photography or any use involving long lenses - you simply fill the frame better with your main subject so need to crop less than you would with a full frame camera.

Those same advantages would apply to macro work, where your subject would obviously fill the frame much better.

Full frame sensor.

Now -staying with wildlife and macro - if you could cram enough pixels onto a full frame sensor so that when you cropped all that wasted space away around your main subject, the pixel count remaining equalled or bettered the crop sensor camera, you'd have a great all round camera wouldn't you.? Some of the newer FF sensors with massive pixel counts are getting close, but still not approaching the newer crop sensor cameras with the higher pixel counts.

Full frame has huge advantages in the wider field of view for landscapes, and obvious advantages for portrait studio and wedding work. Huge enlargements are possible from these sensors.

Neither format is perfect - it depends entirely on what you mainly use the camera for. Get one of each is the easy answer if the bank balance will stand it.

Crop sensor cameras aren't going to disappear, manufacturers aren't decreasing their manufacture of them - they're producing more and specialist lenses which only fit them. The simple reason being that one sensor size really doesn't fit all.

Hope that helps? :)
 
LOL. As long as people seem to jump to the conclusion that full frame is necessarily better by virtue of the fact that it is full frame, or that it cost more dosh, so it must be better, then confusion will reign on this issue.

Crop Sensor

Put simply, a crop sensor has massive advantages for wildlife photography or any use involving long lenses - you simply fill the frame better with your main subject so need to crop less than you would with a full frame camera.

Those same advantages would apply to macro work, where your subject would obviously fill the frame much better.

Full frame sensor.

Now -staying with wildlife and macro - if you could cram enough pixels onto a full frame sensor so that when you cropped all that wasted space away around your main subject, the pixel count remaining equalled or bettered the crop sensor camera, you'd have a great all round camera wouldn't you.? Some of the newer FF sensors with massive pixel counts are getting close, but still not approaching the newer crop sensor camera with the higher pixel counts.

Full frame has huge advantages in the wider field of view for landscapes, and obvious advantages for portrait studio and wedding work. Huge enlargements are possible from these sensors.

Neither format is perfect - it depends entirely on what you manily use the camera for. Get one of each is the easy answer if the bank balance will stand it.

Crop sensor cameras aren't going to disappear, manufacturers aren't decreasing their manufacture of them - they're producing more. The simple reason being that one sensor size really doesn't fit all.

Hope that helps? :)

Thanks for that CT, it does help to have things summarized in that way. It still doesn't really address the claims made in the two links that I pasted earlier though :|. They both make a strong case for fundamentally sharper images with a lot less noise, regardless of whether the image is expanded to fill the same space as a cropped frame sensor, or not.

I suppose that all I can take from the opinions here and those published elsewhere on the Net, are that the differences are either not "uniform", or not so easily distinguished as to be all that important. That being the case, I could save myself a few hundred quid and buy the Nikon D300, instead of the D700 - not sure if I will though ;).
 
Well what do you want full frame for? The wider FOV is a given, although you can now get specialist wide lenses for crop sensor cameras which largely negate that advantage.

You'll see a big benefit if you want to submit stock library images from the newer FF cameras with their larger pixel counts - they meet minimum file size requirements straight out of the camera. You'll see a big benefit if you make big prints, and I mean BIG expensive prints from FF, otherwise it's highly debatable if you will see a difference worth the wonga.

If you're just sticking shots up on TPF, then an 800 pixel image is an 800 pixel image whatever sized sensor it comes from. ;)
 
Here you go...

3113675129_be9832059a_o.jpg


The bird shot is a 1.6X crop sensor shot. The black bg represents the additional field of view you'd see all around the bird with a full frame sensor Obviously that becomes a big disadvantage for me filling the frame with small birds, but for landscapes, group shots etc, the advantage is obvious.

I'm not sure I understand what the obvious advantage is with regards to having a larger field of view when it comes to landscape photography for example.

For a wider view, just get a wider lens?

I've just old-graded to a 5D from a 40D on which I primarily used the EF-S 10-22mm for landscapes. Now, in the world of full frame, a 16-35 would give me a similar field of view would it not?
 
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