Why are people buying electric cars?

[Steep]

Then you'll be coming around to my point that this tat should be banned from the UK.

If I can drag you back to Chinese EV's for a moment. If you'd consider having one then that's your decision and I suppose there is the possibility that cars bult for export to UK are bult to a higher standard than some others but going by the vids which are easily accessible I don't know if I'd put any faith in that

I guess you wrote this bit before you read the next post.

That'd be the conspiracy theories backed up by multiple reports from multiple sources in multiple countries and also raised by the CEO of one of the Chinese companies at least trying to produce a decent product.

But never mind all that. It's easily written off as conspiracy theories and doing so allows you to put your head in the sand or up any orifice you have and you can spend your money however you wish.

It's a long time since I was involved with compliance for Chinese companies but I'd be surprised if they've changed. Buying Chinese products which have been though foreign QC and compliance processes is a better bet and I would be more confident with a Tesla than certain Chinese brands even if it does have Chinese components.

Tesla make their cars in China, so do many other main stream car manufacturers. You're lumping everything made in China together when in fact the country is capable of making world class products as well as knock off tat, just as every other country is.

It's up to you. Good luck with it and if a Chinese EV drives your family into a wall or burns your house down you can blame my conspiracy theories for causing bad karma.

Do you have any idea how many people were injured or killed by shoddy manufacturing in the British motor industry? I don't but I'm willing to bet it's not an insignificant figure.
There are examples of poor quality control and poor safety from every manufacturer in the world, bar none, if you want to go look for them.

I've raised this issue a couple of times now. I'd just urge anyone thinking of buying a Chinese car, not just EV, to look further than the shiny display on the dash and the attractive price. At least do some home work.

Doing your homework is good practise no matter what you are buying, in the case of EV's part of that homework should be European safety testing and Chinese cars do very well in those tests. (google it if you don't think that's correct).

 

[BillN_33]

Car production: Isn't it just the normal way of economic development that China with it's large labour force and lower production costs will start to be a major producer of "mass market" vehicles especially EV's as they effectively control volume battery production.

 

[Clive K]

MGS5 looks amazing value

I have been looking at the MG5 and other MG models. The new price in 2023 was around €37k and they are now averaging around €25k or less for two year old models. A petrol Polo was around €26k for the mid-range model in 2023 and the two year old cars are now going for around €23k. We are now considering buying a new Polo or 2025 demonstrator as the depreciation is so low as to make buying a two year old car unreasonable .

 

[Steep]

I have been looking at the MG5 and other MG models. The new price in 2023 was around €37k and they are now averaging around €25k or less for two year old models. A petrol Polo was around €26k for the mid-range model in 2023 and the two year old cars are now going for around €23k. We are now considering buying a new Polo or 2025 demonstrator as the depreciation is so low as to make buying a two year old car unreasonable .

The MG5 was discontinued this year, you can buy brand new models for 25k. When first launched it sold for about £21k, the various upgrades with battery and facelift upped the price but it was never sold for anything like 37k. Top spec was 33.5k in 2023 and it was mostly discounted from that. The MG5 was a conversion from a petrol estate car and mostly leased as fleet cars or bought as Taxis.

/Edit I just noticed that you quoted Euros not pounds, my apologies. That would work out about the same as UK prices.

 

[BillN_33]

I have been looking at the MG5 and other MG models. The new price in 2023 was around €37k and they are now averaging around €25k or less for two year old models. A petrol Polo was around €26k for the mid-range model in 2023 and the two year old cars are now going for around €23k. We are now considering buying a new Polo or 2025 demonstrator as the depreciation is so low as to make buying a two year old car unreasonable .

Clive, I think that the MGS5 has only just been released in France - non on AutoScout24

MGS5 EV | SUV compact 100% électrique

SUV compact électrique, le véhicule 100% électrique MGS5 combine recharge rapide électrique, espace intérieur généreux, technologie de pointe et grande…

www.mgmotor.fr

the MG5 is NOT the MGS5

 

[Clive K]

Clive, I think that the MGS5 has only just been released in France - non on AutoScout24

MGS5 EV | SUV compact 100% électrique

SUV compact électrique, le véhicule 100% électrique MGS5 combine recharge rapide électrique, espace intérieur généreux, technologie de pointe et grande…

www.mgmotor.fr

the MG5 is NOT the MGS5

We will have to wait and see, but I would expect the initial depreciation to match the 2023 vehicles as they all dropped significantly compared to petrol vehicles.

 

[jamesev]

Well in over 30 years of driving ICE I never had a use for a petrol can!

And no, its not a good reason for not using EV - Remember the fuel crisis of 2000, things like that can happen too but hardly a reason to not use ICE.

It does seem that the main resistance to EVs is the range issue. Most of the other aspect are rapidly being addressed and eventually I suspect the range one will be too whether that having the infrastructure being introduced to mean theres a charging station every 10 miles and likelihood of there being a free space increases. Maybe as EVs over take ICE vehicles then the number of petrol / diesel stations will decrease and the range anxiety will flip over to ICEs

Watch the teardowns before you buy any Chinese EV and you might just see why they look good value, If you do watch them the next question you should ask yourself is "Would I put my loved ones in that car."

Just watched the BYD Seal tear down by Nikkei BP, can't see what the issue is that you're trying to infer

 

[cambsno]

It does seem that the main resistance to EVs is the range issue. Most of the other aspect are rapidly being addressed and eventually I suspect the range one will be too whether that having the infrastructure being introduced to mean theres a charging station every 10 miles and likelihood of there being a free space increases. Maybe as EVs over take ICE vehicles then the number of petrol / diesel stations will decrease and the range anxiety will flip over to ICEs



Just watched the BYD Seal tear down by Nikkei BP, can't see what the issue is that you're trying to infer

Range, while it will be an issue for some, is not an issue (or should not be an issue) for the majority. The average car use is around 150 miles a week. Mine claims to do 260, real world is probably 200-220 depending on how its driven. So one charge a week is enough for people on average.

I live 65 ish miles from London, I could commute daily and just plug in at home and charge up cheap between 12am-5am and there would never be an issue, or need for public charger. Sure, if you drive from London to Manchester each week, thats different, will probably need to stop and charge (although on that distance you should be stopping anyway - and on my 10 or so visits to a charger, never had to wait).

So unless you are a high mileage driver (when I was a rep I would do 1200 a week) or have lots of long trips, the range issue is to be honest, made up!

 

[Clive K]

Its not the weekly knocking about range that I would worry about. Three or four times a year we do 450 - 660 kms in a day down the autoroutes at 130kph when possible. When we do that we will typically stop off for an hour at the most at a picnic spot, not a service station. My 4x4 Honda diesel will do 800km on a tankful and we can guarantee to get from our house to an apartment in Spain 660kms away in just over 7 hours including stopping for lunch (traffic allowing). Same scenario when travelling to airports. The uncertainty of recharging and time needed to recharge would makes these journeys a lottery in an EV and certainly much longer.

It is like buying an estate or 4x4 for the times when you need them, not the small saloon that you could get by with 48 weeks a year. I probably need 4WD a dozen times a year. But I would be reluctant to buy a car without it.

 

[Steep]

Its not the weekly knocking about range that I would worry about. Three or four times a year we do 450 - 660 kms in a day down the autoroutes at 130kph when possible. When we do that we will typically stop off for an hour at the most at a picnic spot, not a service station. My 4x4 Honda diesel will do 800km on a tankful and we can guarantee to get from our house to an apartment in Spain 660kms away in just over 7 hours including stopping for lunch (traffic allowing). Same scenario when travelling to airports. The uncertainty of recharging and time needed to recharge would makes these journeys a lottery in an EV and certainly much longer.

It is like buying an estate or 4x4 for the times when you need them, not the small saloon that you could get by with 48 weeks a year. I probably need 4WD a dozen times a year. But I would be reluctant to buy a car without it.

These are all good reasons not to buy electric, at least for now and there will be many like yourself in the same situation. Generally speaking range is not an issue but the only way most folk find that out is by driving electric or looking honestly at their driving lifestyle before deciding. I've said before, I was the same as most before I got the electric work car, thinking range range range. I changed my mind very soon after though and when I consider my private use it's a no brainer. Helps a lot that Scotland has a very good charging network that keeps getting better.

 

[BillN_33]

Range
just talk to someone who has driven a distance

Last year my son and family drove to SW France on a 2 week holiday - heavy Audi EV plus roof box - less than 200 mile range - he had to stop twice on the drive down - but they would have anyway with 2 young kids - it was a little inconvenient but they drove to the Dordogne and back plus local journeys while they were there.

 

[cambsno]

Its not the weekly knocking about range that I would worry about. Three or four times a year we do 450 - 660 kms in a day down the autoroutes at 130kph when possible. When we do that we will typically stop off for an hour at the most at a picnic spot, not a service station. My 4x4 Honda diesel will do 800km on a tankful and we can guarantee to get from our house to an apartment in Spain 660kms away in just over 7 hours including stopping for lunch (traffic allowing). Same scenario when travelling to airports. The uncertainty of recharging and time needed to recharge would makes these journeys a lottery in an EV and certainly much longer.

It is like buying an estate or 4x4 for the times when you need them, not the small saloon that you could get by with 48 weeks a year. I probably need 4WD a dozen times a year. But I would be reluctant to buy a car without it.

Those are significant trips - I have no idea what the charging situation is like in France or Spain.

I guess no car is perfect - you would have a 4x4 diesel for long trips, a sports car for fun and a family car for everyday stuff. If I still went to Cornwall once a year that would be a ball ache in an EV!

 

[gman]

I suppose you could hire a suitable car for those occasional long trips?

 

[Clive K]

There are charging points in many villages and towns, but it seems to be hit and miss. In our local towns quite often the only parking spaces not occupied are EV charging bays. At our large supermarket there are five or six bays and we rarely see anything connected to the chargers. But our friends who do more motorway trips than us tell me that there are often people moaning about the lack of chargers in motorway service stations, even on the Pèages. Charging at supermarkets is the same price as full rate domestic electricity.

In the resort that we visit in northern Spain I haven't seen any charging points. Looking on google it seems that there are two. One has been broken for over 3 months and the other is reserved for club members. Given that there are 30,000 visitors a year it doesn't look good for anyone hoping to charge their vehicle there.

 

[cosmicma]

I'm seeing Tesla model s changing hands for 15k. That's both terrifying (I paid a lot more) and amazing. If you have extremely large off street parking then it's a steal.

iv'e been looking at model S for the past 12 months or so and the main thing that put me off them is not the car it's i can buy a model 3 for the same money but 5 years younger which i think is the better choice

another surprise is you can put yourself in the BMW I3 with range extender for 5 grand

 

[Steep]

There are charging points in many villages and towns, but it seems to be hit and miss. In our local towns quite often the only parking spaces not occupied are EV charging bays. At our large supermarket there are five or six bays and we rarely see anything connected to the chargers. But our friends who do more motorway trips than us tell me that there are often people moaning about the lack of chargers in motorway service stations, even on the Pèages. Charging at supermarkets is the same price as full rate domestic electricity.

In the resort that we visit in northern Spain I haven't seen any charging points. Looking on google it seems that there are two. One has been broken for over 3 months and the other is reserved for club members. Given that there are 30,000 visitors a year it doesn't look good for anyone hoping to charge their vehicle there.

Scotland is full of Spanish made chargers

 

[jamesev]

There are charging points in many villages and towns, but it seems to be hit and miss. In our local towns quite often the only parking spaces not occupied are EV charging bays. At our large supermarket there are five or six bays and we rarely see anything connected to the chargers. But our friends who do more motorway trips than us tell me that there are often people moaning about the lack of chargers in motorway service stations, even on the Pèages. Charging at supermarkets is the same price as full rate domestic electricity.

In the resort that we visit in northern Spain I haven't seen any charging points. Looking on google it seems that there are two. One has been broken for over 3 months and the other is reserved for club members. Given that there are 30,000 visitors a year it doesn't look good for anyone hoping to charge their vehicle there.

But its like anything, competition will drive more infrastructure. However there is a chain.

More EVs wanting charge bays, Facility need to evaluate if it will get an ROI and procure the chargers or get a company in to do it. The company need to ensure that the facility has the capacity allowance from the grid for super or hyper chargers, The grid needs to do network analysis to understand what the Future energy scenarios will be with more localised capacity requirements for both EV charging and Ai Super Hubs. Then it needs to plan to upgrade the grid and connect all the new connection requests.

Its happening but to make sure it happens all at the rate is very difficult because transition of drivers to EVs is scenario based and a bit of a guess at the moment dependent up on the vehicle manufacturers rate of development

 

[cambsno]

There are charging points in many villages and towns, but it seems to be hit and miss. In our local towns quite often the only parking spaces not occupied are EV charging bays. At our large supermarket there are five or six bays and we rarely see anything connected to the chargers. But our friends who do more motorway trips than us tell me that there are often people moaning about the lack of chargers in motorway service stations, even on the Pèages. Charging at supermarkets is the same price as full rate domestic electricity.

In the resort that we visit in northern Spain I haven't seen any charging points. Looking on google it seems that there are two. One has been broken for over 3 months and the other is reserved for club members. Given that there are 30,000 visitors a year it doesn't look good for anyone hoping to charge their vehicle there.

Do you have an EV? If not then do you really know the full extent of charging and any 'issues'?

Like anything its hit and miss, go to a pub, shop, event, and you may go to the front of the Q, or there could be 10 in front. In my experience as an EV driver I have not had any issues or queues other than 1 at Sth Mimms 2 years ago.

My local Tesco is sometimes full, sometimes empty, normally 50%

 

[Pound Coin]

I wouldn't expect to see an EV charging space always full. The whole point of it is that you can charge up your vehicle there, without a wait. Not ideal having a queue of cars waiting to charge up, blocking access lanes etc.

If charging points are usually full, there aren't enough of them.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

If charging points are usually full, there aren't enough of them.

What about when they're empty?

This is Barrack Road in Exeter, where they took away on street parking, in an area that has very few homes with off street parking, to make two electric car charging areas, As my picture shows, these bays are often empty but it's an offense to park a non-electric car in them.

Just another example of the tail wagging the dog...

 

[Pound Coin]

What about when they're empty?

This is Barrack Road in Exeter, where they took away on street parking, in an area that has very few homes with off street parking, to make two electric car charging areas, As my picture shows, these bays are often empty but it's an offense to park a non-electric car in them.

Just another example of the tail wagging the dog...

View attachment 459953

Ah, on street parking. Using public infrastructure to store private property.

Or was it a different point you were making?

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Ah, on street parking. Using public infrastructure to store private property.

Or was it a different point you were making?

Nope. just pointing out that the greed of the electric car owner is encouraged by both national and local government.

 

[jamesev]

What about when they're empty?

This is Barrack Road in Exeter, where they took away on street parking, in an area that has very few homes with off street parking, to make two electric car charging areas, As my picture shows, these bays are often empty but it's an offense to park a non-electric car in them.

Just another example of the tail wagging the dog...

View attachment 459953

oooo street photography

 

[Nod]

Those slots on Barrack Road usually have at least 2 cars charging when I pass (several times per week). The car club that has a reserved space there has been defunct for a couple of years - how old is that snap?

 

[cambsno]

What about when they're empty?

This is Barrack Road in Exeter, where they took away on street parking, in an area that has very few homes with off street parking, to make two electric car charging areas, As my picture shows, these bays are often empty but it's an offense to park a non-electric car in them.

Just another example of the tail wagging the dog...

View attachment 459953

Same with those parent/child or disabled - car park full but always have 5 other spaces free, is that the tail wagging the dog too? Or a space for motorbikes with none in!

 

[Pound Coin]

I drove on the M5 the other morning. Empty. Tail wagging the dog.

 

[Nod]

That's unusual - at this time of year it's usually full of grockles queueing to get to the beaches!

 

[Pound Coin]

Not at 1 in the morning!

 

[Nod]

Sometimes... Only takes a nasty smash to close it and get loooong tailbacks even at night.

 

[munch]

Nope. just pointing out that the greed of the electric car owner is encouraged by both national and local government.

Sorry Andrew but this post makes no sense. How is it greed?
Not being a fan of EV's I get, but to be frank posts like this one just make your position look a bit silly.

 

[BillN_33]

A very low miles big battery pre reg Renault Scenic looks good value - I'm attached to my diesel BM X1 but some of the deals on less than 100 miles pre reg EV seem irresistible

 

[Clive K]

A very low miles big battery pre reg Renault Scenic looks good value - I'm attached to my diesel BM X1 but some of the deals on less than 100 miles pre reg EV seem irresistible

That is a double edged sword. If my wife changed to ev she would save €600 in fuel costs plus an unknown, but reasonable sum in servicing. However, ev's depreciation in their first three years compared to petrol would wipe out any savings by the factor of 3 or 4 if we bought new or nearly new. Then there is the unknown in regards long term value if we bought a 3 or 4 year old car.

 

[BillN_33]

That is a double edged sword. If my wife changed to ev she would save €600 in fuel costs plus an unknown, but reasonable sum in servicing. However, ev's depreciation in their first three years compared to petrol would wipe out any savings by the factor of 3 or 4 if we bought new or nearly new. Then there is the unknown in regards long term value if we bought a 3 or 4 year old car.

I think EV depreciation is now the same as ICE depreciation (in the UK), although in France new car depreciation is not as steep as it is in the UK,

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Sorry Andrew but this post makes no sense. How is it greed?
Not being a fan of EV's I get, but to be frank posts like this one just make your position look a bit silly.

At the moment, the whole electric car thing is based on feeding the greed of the electric car brigade. Discounts paid from tax money, charging from domestic power without paying fuel duty, huge discounts on road tax...

If they're such a good idea, why any of the above bribes?

 

[ancient_mariner]

Sometimes... Only takes a nasty smash to close it and get loooong tailbacks even at night.

Would that be the tailback wagging the dog?

 

[cambsno]

At the moment, the whole electric car thing is based on feeding the greed of the electric car brigade. Discounts paid from tax money, charging from domestic power without paying fuel duty, huge discounts on road tax...

If they're such a good idea, why any of the above bribes?

No different to the greedy commuter and train/bus user - subsidies from tax money to help provide transport... if trains and buses are such a good idea, why the bribes?

Notice that despite asking this weeks ago you have no answer which just goes to show you just do baseless rants!

 

[Pound Coin]

At the moment, the whole electric car thing is based on feeding the greed of the electric car brigade. Discounts paid from tax money, charging from domestic power without paying fuel duty, huge discounts on road tax...

If they're such a good idea, why any of the above bribes?

Air travel bribes, could you have a go at therm...?

 

[munch]

At the moment, the whole electric car thing is based on feeding the greed of the electric car brigade. Discounts paid from tax money, charging from domestic power without paying fuel duty, huge discounts on road tax...

If they're such a good idea, why any of the above bribes?

Andrew your recording is wearing a bit thin. Especially considering you are the only one playing it.

 

[Clive K]

I think EV depreciation is now the same as ICE depreciation (in the UK), although in France new car depreciation is not as steep as it is in the UK,

The petrol two to three year old fleet cars hold their money far better than the similar ev models. And the older evs with small batteries even more so. With technology advancing all the time it may be that older evs will be always have a greater depreceation in cars of yesterday's technology.

 

[LCPete]

The petrol two to three year old fleet cars hold their money far better than the similar ev models. And the older evs with small batteries even more so. With technology advancing all the time it may be that older evs will be always have a greater depreceation in cars of yesterday's technology.

Yes that is true I believe, people rightly or wrongly are wary of second hand EVs
I am not against EVs in principle but in our case its just that anything decent is way out of our budget being retired on a fixed income