Why are people buying electric cars?

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ShinySideUp said:
A simple 'I disagree' would be rather more polite, however, in answer to your point here is the quote from Which? Magazine:



Do you want to pay more money for the same amount of electricity? No? Then you need to know your car’s maximum charging capabilities. Unfortunately, that data isn’t always handily available, meaning most EV drivers have no idea what their charging rates are.
You plug your car into a 50kW charger. It takes around 45 minutes to get the battery in your electric vehicle (EV) from 20 to 100%. This works out at around 19p per mile.
But the week after, you come across a new 350kW charger. Being seven times more powerful sounds incredibly convenient.
You eagerly plug your car in but, to your surprise, it still takes 45 minutes to charge your EV from 20-100%, except now it has cost you £37. That means you’re now paying 24.3p per mile - more expensive than your typical petrol or diesel car.
All you’ve done is pay more for the same amount of electricity.
Nothing has gone wrong here. It’s just the car in this case can draw only a maximum of 50kW DC. That means if you plug your car into a 50kW, 150kW or 350kW charger, it will only ever draw a maximum of 50kW.
Now you know this, it's unlikely you'd choose a charger that is more powerful and more expensive.
But that’s the issue. Most electric car owners do not know their car’s maximum charge rates. When we asked EV owners to name their maximum charging rates, 61% didn’t even attempt to answer, and many that did got it wrong.
We believe this is a problem that’s easily solvable by manufacturers adding the maximum AC and DC charge rates to the cars themselves. Much in the same way that when refuelling a non-electric car, the fuel flap often tells you if you need petrol or diesel.

I can only report on what I read. I am not an electric car expert and my knowledge of car chargers is, and will remain, negligible since I don't have one, So if Which? have got it wrong then you should take it up with them and not shoot the messenger. Perhaps it is you that doesn't know, have you considered that?
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I'm not an EV fan and I don't do the climate catastrophe bulls&^t but this is not how electricity works?

This part is right
Nothing has gone wrong here. It’s just the car in this case can draw only a maximum of 50kW DC. That means if you plug your car into a 50kW, 150kW or 350kW charger, it will only ever draw a maximum of 50kW
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The battery is still using the same amount of power to charge so not costing you anymore money.
 
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ShinySideUp said:
A simple 'I disagree' would be rather more polite, however, in answer to your point here is the quote from Which? Magazine:



Do you want to pay more money for the same amount of electricity? No? Then you need to know your car’s maximum charging capabilities. Unfortunately, that data isn’t always handily available, meaning most EV drivers have no idea what their charging rates are.
You plug your car into a 50kW charger. It takes around 45 minutes to get the battery in your electric vehicle (EV) from 20 to 100%. This works out at around 19p per mile.
But the week after, you come across a new 350kW charger. Being seven times more powerful sounds incredibly convenient.
You eagerly plug your car in but, to your surprise, it still takes 45 minutes to charge your EV from 20-100%, except now it has cost you £37. That means you’re now paying 24.3p per mile - more expensive than your typical petrol or diesel car.
All you’ve done is pay more for the same amount of electricity.
Nothing has gone wrong here. It’s just the car in this case can draw only a maximum of 50kW DC. That means if you plug your car into a 50kW, 150kW or 350kW charger, it will only ever draw a maximum of 50kW.
Now you know this, it's unlikely you'd choose a charger that is more powerful and more expensive.
But that’s the issue. Most electric car owners do not know their car’s maximum charge rates. When we asked EV owners to name their maximum charging rates, 61% didn’t even attempt to answer, and many that did got it wrong.
We believe this is a problem that’s easily solvable by manufacturers adding the maximum AC and DC charge rates to the cars themselves. Much in the same way that when refuelling a non-electric car, the fuel flap often tells you if you need petrol or diesel.

I can only report on what I read. I am not an electric car expert and my knowledge of car chargers is, and will remain, negligible since I don't have one, So if Which? have got it wrong then you should take it up with them and not shoot the messenger. Perhaps it is you that doesn't know, have you considered that?
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A simple I disagree would not have been accurate, as what you wrote was patently nonsense.

I mentioned a couple of times in my reply that which magazine are known for their willingness to ignore facts in their quest to make a profit, this is not new. They were guilty of it 40+ years ago when they published an article saying microwave ovens caused cataracts in peoples eyes.

"I can only report what I read" You passed on a load of nonsense without bothering to find out if it was remotely accurate.

Perhaps it is you that doesn't know, have you considered that?
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Maybe you missed me also mentioning that I have driven many electric miles. I'll expand on that, I've driven many electric miles in my profession as an EV charge point engineer. I'll ask you to trust me on this, I probably know more avout EV charging than the entire staff at Which and all their relatives.
 
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JonathanRyan said:
This is not the first time I've read this, so I suspect that on this occasion, rather than Which making it up, they are simply copying from an incorrect source.

There are such things as "stay charges" but in general a public charger charges by the amount of electricity delivered, not by time connected. Exactly like a petrol pump does (though in their case for is limited by other factors than the vehicle)

I will politely point out that their article is incorrect in this respect and that while the maximum charge rate is interesting, it does not generally affect the cost of charging.
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There can be a higher cost applied to more rapid (100, 150, 350kwh) chargers, depends entirely on the owner of the charger. If the owner of a car doesn't know their max charge ratge it's down to them, the information is readily available in their car's manual.
I saw a huge charging hub in Europe that has chargers that go up to 600kwh, you the driver choose what speed you want to max out at and pay accordingly.
 
Steep said:
A simple I disagree would not have been accurate, as what you wrote was patently nonsense.

I mentioned a couple of times in my reply that which magazine are known for their willingness to ignore facts in their quest to make a profit, this is not new. They were guilty of it 40+ years ago when they published an article saying microwave ovens caused cataracts in peoples eyes.

"I can only report what I read" You passed on a load of nonsense without bothering to find out if it was remotely accurate.


Maybe you missed me also mentioning that I have driven many electric miles. I'll expand on that, I've driven many electric miles in my profession as an EV charge point engineer. I'll ask you to trust me on this, I probably know more avout EV charging than the entire staff at Which and all their relatives.
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Look, perhaps it's nonsense to you as you have told us that you are an EV charge point engineer -- you may have said this before but if you did, I missed it -- and it is rather crucial to this discussion. I don't know it is nonsense, I can only comment on what I read, as I've said.

Now based on your opinion that Which? are wrong, I have gone further and have found other sites that say a similar thing in that there are three types of charger out there and what you have to pay for your electric charge depends on various factors, not least the charge rate of your particular vehicle. While I have been unable to pin down exactly how these electric points charge you to top up your car it is, in my ignorant position of being a diesel driver, quite reasonable that if you use a high-power charger on a car that can't take it then you may be paying extra for a charger that you cannot fully utilise.


.
 
ShinySideUp said:
Look, perhaps it's nonsense to you as you have told us that you are an EV charge point engineer -- you may have said this before but if you did, I missed it -- and it is rather crucial to this discussion. I don't know it is nonsense, I can only comment on what I read, as I've said.

Now based on your opinion that Which? are wrong, I have gone further and have found other sites that say a similar thing in that there are three types of charger out there and what you have to pay for your electric charge depends on various factors, not least the charge rate of your particular vehicle. While I have been unable to pin down exactly how these electric points charge you to top up your car it is, in my ignorant position of being a diesel driver, quite reasonable that if you use a high-power charger on a car that can't take it then you may be paying extra for a charger that you cannot fully utilise.


.
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You have to pay more for higer octane petrol, it will still power a fiat panda but how does a fiat panda driver know it's not required for their car? By reading the manual. The price is shown at the pump in the same way the price is shown on a charger.

What you describe is not an EV problem, it's an education problem. It's not the government's or the charger owner's duty to inform you of the best way to charge your car, it's down to "you" the driver to find out.

When you buy a car, any car, it comes with a manual, if you choose not to read it....
 
Articles that don't like EVs tend to talk about sub 50 kw charging speed cars and the "danger" of overpaying for electricity, but there really aren't very many of them.

www.whatcar.com

Fastest charging electric cars ranked quickest to slowest

Want an electric vehicle but worried about how long it takes to charge? Here we list all the electric car and SUV models we've tested in order of charging speed in kW, starting with the quickest
www.whatcar.com www.whatcar.com

Assist from that weird Lexus, sub 50k means you have a small car with a limited range and are probably will aware of the issue.

I don't know the max charging speed of my car because it's a lot :)
 
JonathanRyan said:
There are such things as "stay charges"
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Speaking of which, some cities, such as Exeter, now have charging spaces on the streets in which ordinary cars are forbidden to park on pain of a fine.

So we're right back to the 16th century, with the rich having the pleasure and the poor getting the dirty end of the stick. c'est la vie. :sulk:
 
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The other point here is that 'in general' EV drivers charge from home and most will never go near a public charger of any type (given that average daily UK private car use is just 9 miles).
Of those like myself who do need to use public chargers, it's a matter of taking enough to get where you need to go, not of charging from empty to full every time.
If average joe EV driver is on holiday e.g., finds themselves in need and there's only a soo expensive ultra rapid charger available. Then they take only what they need and the difference in price is pennies.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Speaking of which, some cities, such as Exeter, now have charging spaces on the streets in which ordinary cars are forbidden to park on pain of a fine.

So we're right back to the 16th century, with the rich having the pleasure and the poor getting the dirty end of the stick. c'est la vie. :sulk:
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Oh those dastardly rich EV drivers eh? off with their heads!
 
The max charging speed of my car is as fast as the diesel pump can supply it, if I used an HGV pump it would be about 15secs from empty,

I cannot say the same for my e-bike, which takes about six hours from 'low'. Having said that though, the charger my e-bike came with is a Cube 'compact' charger but if I fork out another hundred and fifty quid I can get a 'quick' charger which takes about 2 hours -- and probably sends my battery to the grave in four years instead of [hopefully] ten.
 
Steep said:
Oh those dastardly rich EV drivers eh? off with their heads!
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Nope.

Just tax their electric cars the same overall amount as petrol or diesel cars.
 
Give it 18 months and EVs will have to pay vehicle tax (DVLA's name for it).

Don't forget the spaces in Exeter reserved for car club vehicles only. The car club went bust in July...
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Nope.

Just tax their electric cars the same overall amount as petrol or diesel cars.
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Don't worry, they will.

The government has a history of encouraging people to do something then punishing them for doing it. See for example, pensioners and buy to let mortgages.

We're in the recruiting phase. Once enough people have them, the treasury will figure out a way to tax them.
 
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Well, I shall not be paying any f*****g tax!
 
Nod said:
Well, I shall not be paying any f*****g tax!
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That's an approach which might earn you a meeting with some of those very nice bailiffs, who have appeared on television...
 
Nod said:
Give it 18 months and EVs will have to pay vehicle tax (DVLA's name for it).

Don't forget the spaces in Exeter reserved for car club vehicles only. The car club went bust in July...
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Guaranteed to happen. Government cannot afford to lose the huge tax revenue they currently get from ICE cars and fuel.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
That's an approach which might earn you a meeting with some of those very nice bailiffs, who have appeared on television...
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What for? Not paying a tax on f*****g?
 
An interesting read. I can't see me getting an electric vehicle anytime soon but I can see some areas where it might make sense and others where it doesn't make sense. An electrician friend of mine was recently asked to install an EV Charger for someone and when he checked their electrical supply infastructure it seems it wasn't capable of supporting anything but the lowest output system, I'm guessing that isn't an isolated case.

As for climate change, I am sure it has always happened and I believe it is increasing in pace, however, whether that is because of humans or not I don't know. Like many things it could be just that with saturation comes faster saturation, whether EVs can have any real impact or not I don't know but what I do know is that mankind (unless forced into it by some phenominal disaster) can never go back to the less polluting pre-industrial revolition days so we are where we are.

I wish I was clever enough to have the answers but I'm not and what concerns me is the polarity of opinions amongst those Scientists that purport to be clever enough to have the answers. I surely don't know what to believe but what I do think is that we (the Government) have dived headlong into the EV replacement of ICEV far too quickly and I wonder if that is for genuine concern for the Planet or self promotion and vote chasing (not to mention eventual revenue chasing).
 
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Topsy said:
An interesting read. I can't see me getting an electric vehicle anytime soon but I can see some areas where it might make sense and others where it doesn't make sense. An electrician friend of mine was recently asked to install an EV Charger for someone and when he checked their electrical supply infastructure it seems it wasn't capable of supporting anything but the lowest output system, I'm guessing that isn't an isolated case.

As for climate change, I am sure it has always happened and I believe it is increasing in pace, however, whether that is because of humans or not I don't know. Like many things it could be just that with saturation comes faster saturation, whether EVs can have any real impact or not I don't know but what I do know is that mankind (unless forced into it by some phenominal disaster) can never go back to the less polluting pre-industrial revolition days so we are where we are.

I wish I was clever enough to have the answers but I'm not and what concerns me is the polarity of opinions amongst those Scientists that purport to be clever enough to have the answers. I surely don't know what to believe but what I do think is that we (the Government) have dived headlong into the EV replacement of ICEV far too quickly and I wonder if that is for genuine concern for the Planet or self promotion and vote chasing (not to mention eventual revenue chasing).
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A question for those who "don't know" whether climate change is human-induced or not:

Why not accept what the vast majority of those who do know (climate scientists) believe? - that it is.

As for electric cars, I'm not convinced about this rush for them either. The embedded cost (in carbon terms, and other environmental impacts) of constructing them is such that the advantages of using them are probably far less than is supposed. The fact that a large percentage of the electricity needed to charge them comes from fossil fuels is another disadvantage.
 
jerry12953 said:
A question for those who "don't know" whether climate change is human-induced or not:

Why not accept what the vast majority of those who do know (climate scientists) believe? - that it is.
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Why not "not" accept it?

Either position is equally valid, except to a fanatic on either side. My guess is that in fifty or a hundred years, there will still be debate on the cause of the current changes.
 
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AndrewFlannigan said:
Why not "not" accept it?

Either position is equally valid, except to a fanatic on either side. My guess is that in fifty or a hundred years, there will still be debate on the cause of the current changes.
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No. There is not equal validity between the two positions. Especially to a 'fanatic' that says "climate has always changed" and believes that explains what is going on right now.

As for 50 - 100 years, I thought you said weren't bothered :naughty:
 
Pound Coin said:
As for 50 - 100 years, I thought you said weren't bothered :naughty:
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Consistency is the hobgoblin of the small minded fool, to misquote Ralph Waldo Emerson. :giggle:
 
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It is my very great belief. -- based purely on what I read regarding overall pollution, population growth, antibiotic resistance, increase in war over water and borders, etc. -- that in 50 to 100 years time, any humans that are left will be wondering not what to do about climate change or how it occurred, but more about how they can put one over on the neighbouring tribe and steal what is left of their food before they themselves starve to death. Yes, I am that optimistic.
 
ShinySideUp said:
It is my very great belief. -- based purely on what I read regarding overall pollution, population growth, antibiotic resistance, increase in war over water and borders, etc. -- that in 50 to 100 years time, any humans that are left will be wondering not what to do about climate change or how it occurred, but more about how they can put one over on the neighbouring tribe and steal what is left of their food before they themselves starve to death. Yes, I am that optimistic.
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I hesitate to click the like button but in my darker moments I believe you're right. Who knows how it will pan out but I feel we are on the road to oblivion, and taking the rest of the planet with us. Electric cars or not........
 
Agree with both these two posts.

The way we are going, and the blatant way that politicians and businesses are covering up what humans are doing in order to make more money is despicable.
 
I stumbled across this during my Walpoling activities, it's quite a long read and the temperatures are in the infernal Fahrenheit, but nevertheless it is interesting.

Rolling Stone Mag
 
ShinySideUp said:
It is my very great belief.
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You're only the latest in a long line, stretching back to the bloke looking down from the tree and saying: "All this walking around on the forest floor will be the end of humanity..."
 
This conversation has become far too complicated for someone of my limited intelligence to understand, but what I do understand is this:

1. I'm going on a regular trip tomorrow in my diesel car. It will do 53 to the gallon on the way out and 47 to the gallon on the way back.
2. I can do more than 500 miles on a full tank
3. I can get diesel anywhere, and it only takes about 5 minutes
4. My VED is only £20 per year, because of the low emissions.
5. The value of the car is only about the cost of a very good camera body, other people have paid for the depreciation.
6. Performance isn't great, but beats most electric cars.

So, at this point, I'll bow out of this thread.
 
Garry Edwards said:
This conversation has become far too complicated for someone of my limited intelligence to understand, but what I do understand is this:

1. I'm going on a regular trip tomorrow in my diesel car. It will do 53 to the gallon on the way out and 47 to the gallon on the way back.
2. I can do more than 500 miles on a full tank
3. I can get diesel anywhere, and it only takes about 5 minutes
4. My VED is only £20 per year, because of the low emissions.
5. The value of the car is only about the cost of a very good camera body, other people have paid for the depreciation.
6. Performance isn't great, but beats most electric cars.

So, at this point, I'll bow out of this thread.
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I think this is sort of thing that people (HAVE) to relate to. ie - ££££

I paid £3500 for my Ford Focus summer 2017 with 48,000 on the clock.

I've just searched Auto Trader for a 2010 Focus Zetec 1.6 Petrol even in the same colour as mine....... It's has 72,000 on the clock and is up for sale for £3595 - mine now has just over 80,000, maybe 82,000..... - https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...on=Manual&year-from=2010&year-to=2010&fromsra

The depreciation on mine is almost nothing over 6 years. It costs me about £500 for tax/insurance. Does about 30-35mpg/400mile to a tank.

Financially, it's a no brainer to just keep it!! Extra pennies for camera gear right? :) Or the other car? Or weekends away? Or just to not have to count every penny towards the end of the month......

On the other end of the scale, I have a mate I work with who has just upgraded his PCP 2020 Jaguar F Pace V8 SVR for a PCP 2023 V8 SVR model. He's paying over £1000 a month, plus tax, plus insurance, plus Jaguar servicing, plus fuel at a MAXIMUM of 23mpg - more likely 15 urban!! He drives 4 miles to work everyday & goes shopping. Doesn't tow a trailer, doesn't tow a jetski or a boat, doesn't have big dogs to fit in the back, doesn't have kids who live with him, doesn't play golf, or anything that requires a big boot space......

He could buy a new Leica every 6 months :)
 
Garry Edwards said:
This conversation has become far too complicated for someone of my limited intelligence to understand, but what I do understand is this:

1. I'm going on a regular trip tomorrow in my diesel car. It will do 53 to the gallon on the way out and 47 to the gallon on the way back.
2. I can do more than 500 miles on a full tank
3. I can get diesel anywhere, and it only takes about 5 minutes
4. My VED is only £20 per year, because of the low emissions.
5. The value of the car is only about the cost of a very good camera body, other people have paid for the depreciation.
6. Performance isn't great, but beats most electric cars.

So, at this point, I'll bow out of this thread.
Click to expand...

That is exactly the same as my experience, with our 18 year old Skoda Octavia. We have taken this all over Europe since we bought it for £3000 in 2012, it now has 200,700 miles on the clock.
 
LeeRatters said:
I think this is sort of thing that people (HAVE) to relate to. ie - ££££

I paid £3500 for my Ford Focus summer 2017 with 48,000 on the clock.

I've just searched Auto Trader for a 2010 Focus Zetec 1.6 Petrol even in the same colour as mine....... It's has 72,000 on the clock and is up for sale for £3595 - mine now has just over 80,000, maybe 82,000..... - https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202309272410325?sort=relevance&advertising-location=at_cars&aggregatedTrim=Zetec&colour=Silver&fuel-type=Petrol&include-delivery-option=on&make=Ford&maximum-mileage=90000&minimum-mileage=70000&model=Focus&postcode=bs3 2un&transmission=Manual&year-from=2010&year-to=2010&fromsra

The depreciation on mine is almost nothing over 6 years. It costs me about £500 for tax/insurance. Does about 30-35mpg/400mile to a tank.

Financially, it's a no brainer to just keep it!! Extra pennies for camera gear right? :) Or the other car? Or weekends away? Or just to not have to count every penny towards the end of the month......

On the other end of the scale, I have a mate I work with who has just upgraded his PCP 2020 Jaguar F Pace V8 SVR for a PCP 2023 V8 SVR model. He's paying over £1000 a month, plus tax, plus insurance, plus Jaguar servicing, plus fuel at a MAXIMUM of 23mpg - more likely 15 urban!! He drives 4 miles to work everyday & goes shopping. Doesn't tow a trailer, doesn't tow a jetski or a boat, doesn't have big dogs to fit in the back, doesn't have kids who live with him, doesn't play golf, or anything that requires a big boot space......

He could buy a new Leica every 6 months :)
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Dunno. Maybe he enjoys driving a jaguar more than he'd enjoy collecting camera jewellery. People are different.
 
I'd go out tomorrow & buy an electric vehicle if it weren't for a couple of things - firstly they just too expensive! and secondly they are quite costly in comparison to their ICE equivalents.
Thirdly I don't have funding. Fourth, I am not good at math.
 
My next car will be a 3-litre V6 petrol saloon made in Dingolfing, Munich or Neckarsulm...... Unless investors get in and start producing the Emily GT in Trollhattan.

We've got 4 electics on our road, with 2 charging points - on street parking.... no provision at work yet for EVs, given that I do regular 200+ mile trips, and can do that comfortably in 4-5 hours non-stop in a Saab, I'll stick with unleaded for now.
 
Joeseph said:
I'd go out tomorrow & buy an electric vehicle if it weren't for a couple of things - firstly they just too expensive! and secondly they are quite costly in comparison to their ICE equivalents.
Thirdly I don't have funding. Fourth, I am not good at math.
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Yep, pretty much sums me up, too, save for a #5 which is I already have a car and I have no intention to change for the sake of change(*). The only friend I have who has an electric car (and he loves it, by the way) is a middle manager at his company and thus qualifies for a company car, and he has chosen an electric one. But he's the exception, most people I know, look to buy cars that are a few years old and cost less than £10k (usually a lot less). These days that gets one a reasonably good motor. Once second hand EVs get down to those levels I'm sure the take-up will increase, all others things (like the batteries still being in good shape, and the RFL still being reasonable) being equal.

(*) If I did change for the sake of change then my car would still be out there burning fossil fuel for somebody. Were I to scrap it, with plenty of life left in it, then all the natural resource costs involved in building and shipping that car would have been for nothing - and there would be such costs for any replacements I'd buy. So in my limited (#4 I'm not good at maths) view is it not better to keep what one has?
 
I used to love my Scalextric. Don't get carpet fluff on your brushes!
 
I think Ive solved the problem. No need to charge, no worries about battery life cheaper car construction costs, will go whatever distance you like from trip to the local shop to 600, 700mile trip only stop for the loo or coffee. Its easy all we need to do is fit a pantograph to the top of each car and put cables over the roads to suppy the current like the old trolly buses. Micro chip to register use and billed through the post each month.

Opps forgot the post dont work ah well "say lavy"
 
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