Why are all photographers Pros?

a cool 1,000,000 in under 3 years and you need a second job for spending money .. you need a check up from the neck up mate! for that sort of cash you must be pretty savvy business wise.. if you cant manage to keep your head afloat with an income like that you need to change your accountant.. or something! lol..

Its a good plan though, i was thinking of moving in with my pal in South Queensferry, i fancy 300k.. hehe..

Im not having a go Gary.. just messing..
 
my aim is to make 15k a year ive never earned more than 13-14k in a full time job before
 
fraggle101 said:
a cool 1,000,000 in under 3 years and you need a second job for spending money .. you need a check up from the neck up mate! for that sort of cash you must be pretty savvy business wise.. if you cant manage to keep your head afloat with an income like that you need to change your accountant.. or something! lol..

Its a good plan though, i was thinking of moving in with my pal in South Queensferry, i fancy 300k.. hehe..

Im not having a go Gary.. just messing..
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I don't *need* :) I would have if I needed. I *want*. Its 90% to grow as a photographer, and 10% pocket money. With regards to business savvy, we are afloat and surviving. However, my industry is at breaking point. It really is. We have mortgage brokers who paid £300 per enquiry, who struggle to pay £5 now. Its that bad. The financial services sector is moving backwards at an alarming rate, and as a result, we need to diversify or die.

All I am saying, I do not want to be caught short in the future, I need to make sure the house is safe, and it more or less is now. If I can be mortgage free, before I am 30, I will take any wage.

Gary.
 
HoppyUK said:
What truly differentiates the successful folks from the norm is actually not lots of photographic ability or nice kit (that's a given, usually ;) ) but personality. Defining that is difficult, but you know it when you see it. I've been fortunate to meet a lot of famous photographers and they all have lots of it. Conceptually, what you are saying is indeed simple, but don't confuse simple with easy.
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Personality is a big factor, I agree. But I don't mean to confuse being extrovert or loudness or brashness with "personality" - you can have plenty of the right personality even if you are a quiet thoughtful soul. Integrity, honesty and emotional involvement in the work are others. 90% of the reasons a client will pay good money to work with someone have little to do with the quality of the actual photography. They do have a lot to do with whether they like & trust the person they are hiring. The client also needs to know that the photographer actually cares about them, rather than just seeing them as people who pay them to take photographs. When you combine great photographic talent with these qualities then you have real dynamite, in my opinion.

Nigel
 
Les McLean said:
Wedding photography is not just about taking pictures, if it was, it wouldn't be so difficult.

Wedding photography is one of the most difficult areas for any tog to work in, you need to crowd control, be a psychologist, diplomat, arbitrator, social worker, counsellor, referee, marketing manager and style guru before you can think about taking any images.

Any 'good' wedding tog will have a handle on all (or most) of these.

Taking a picture of Beuchaile Etive Mor at -10C on a freezing January morning is a walk in the park compared to a run of the mill wedding shoot.
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Well said Les!

This turned into an interesting debate. I have already made my thoughts on known.
I'm not worried about my business, a lot is from word of mouth (I don't advertise at all) and I'm in a different price range to the 2 new gwc's.

An update: One of these guys rang me this morning from my studio, he'd called in but I was out on a job. He wanted to know what I did when it got dark? I was tempted to say I go to bed like the little birdies, but to be honest what can you say? the truth, that he needs lessons in basic photography? Get a flash? Give up and do something your qualified for? In the end I told him if he had to ask basic questions like that I didn't think he was ready to do a wedding, he thought about that for a minute, and came back with "but I have one on saturday" Finally I told him to come back tomorrow and I'd have a proper chat with him, although I havent a clue what I'm going to tell him, I'll probably bust out laughing. Wayne
 
swanseamale47 said:
Finally I told him to come back tomorrow and I'd have a proper chat with him, although I havent a clue what I'm going to tell him, I'll probably bust out laughing. Wayne
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Be the nice guy. Help him out, and maybe when he realises it is not for him, he will put business your way. No point in making him an enemy, you don't want that as it may force him down a path where he feels he owes you some unwanted payback.

Just be nice, and polite, and tell him nicely, its not as easy as it looks.

Gary.
 
fraggle101 said:
a cool 1,000,000 in under 3 years and you need a second job for spending money .. you need a check up from the neck up mate! for that sort of cash you must be pretty savvy business wise.. if you cant manage to keep your head afloat with an income like that you need to change your accountant.. or something! lol..
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Matters not how much you earn, you soon find away to spend it and you'll always want more check out premier league footballers if you don't believe me!
 
nmerrick said:
Personality is a big factor, I agree. But I don't mean to confuse being extrovert or loudness or brashness with "personality" - you can have plenty of the right personality even if you are a quiet thoughtful soul. Integrity, honesty and emotional involvement in the work are others. 90% of the reasons a client will pay good money to work with someone have little to do with the quality of the actual photography. They do have a lot to do with whether they like & trust the person they are hiring. The client also needs to know that the photographer actually cares about them, rather than just seeing them as people who pay them to take photographs. When you combine great photographic talent with these qualities then you have real dynamite, in my opinion.

Nigel
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Sure, personality is hard to define, but all the very successful people I've met have got, in addition to basic ability in their chosen field, amazing persistence, and a lot of what I can only call charm. They are often quite modest also, as they just don't have anything to prove.

Apply those criteria to people that have really made it and I find it's not far off. It's ceratinly not got anything to do with being a loud bull-sh!tter ;)

Richard.
 
EdinburghGary said:
Be the nice guy. Help him out, and maybe when he realises it is not for him, he will put business your way. No point in making him an enemy, you don't want that as it may force him down a path where he feels he owes you some unwanted payback.

Just be nice, and polite, and tell him nicely, its not as easy as it looks.

Gary.
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I was thinking the same thing..


a1ex2001 said:
Matters not how much you earn, you soon find away to spend it and you'll always want more check out premier league footballers if you don't believe me!
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You can say that about earning 15K or even 50K!! but not with 300K.. in 5 years thats 1.5Million!

I went from 25K to 40K in a couple of years, and yes, you do live to your means.. but come on!! If you cant set yourself up for life with that sort of dough then your doing it all wrong.. Scotlands not exactly the most expensive place in the world.. unless you live in the Castle there and live like a Lord!

But, i understand it wont last forever and if business isn't doing so well then its a good idea to plan ahead.. i just was a little concerned with., i earn 300K, and i WANT (Not NEED) to do all the BIG weddings in Scotland. (Or wherever) so that the Togs that are doing it for a living will HAVE to work harder..

Im sounding a little Socialist here.. Im NOT!! it just sounded a bit spoilt.. :shrug:

But now we know there are cracks in the business.. so its all a good idea.. :)
 
fraggle101 said:
I was thinking the same thing..





You can say that about earning 15K or even 50K!! but not with 300K.. in 5 years thats 1.5Million!

I went from 25K to 40K in a couple of years, and yes, you do live to your means.. but come on!! If you cant set yourself up for life with that sort of dough then your doing it all wrong.. Scotlands not exactly the most expensive place in the world.. unless you live in the Castle there and live like a Lord!

But, i understand it wont last forever and if business isn't doing so well then its a good idea to plan ahead.. i just was a little concerned with., i earn 300K, and i WANT (Not NEED) to do all the BIG weddings in Scotland. (Or wherever) so that the Togs that are doing it for a living will HAVE to work harder..

Im sounding a little Socialist here.. Im NOT!! it just sounded a bit spoilt.. :shrug:

But now we know there are cracks in the business.. so its all a good idea.. :)
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Well firstly, I have not earned that kind of money for 5 years. I earned it three years ago, and close to it the last two. This year, I will take as much as £100k. Now, I am forced to give 40% of that to this government. I also pay £1,000 per month to the Child Support Agency. Do the maths, and work out how much I will have left afterwords.

With regards to wanting all the weddings in Scotland? I don't. I said I have access to a constant stream of clients, weekly if I want. I am not going after anyone, I am looking to expand my photography and hopefully secure some form of future income that I enjoy.

Edinburgh BTW, is not exactly cheap. Even by London standards.

Gary.
 
anything more than the dole is a benefit at the moment :D
 
i was just reffering to the amount of people losing their jobs and my dream job id be hoping to get 15k cause ive never earned that much and im not greedy :)
 
EdinburghGary said:
Well firstly, I have not earned that kind of money for 5 years. I earned it three years ago, and close to it the last two. This year, I will take as much as £100k. Now, I am forced to give 40% of that to this government. I also pay £1,000 per month to the Child Support Agency. Do the maths, and work out how much I will have left afterwords.

With regards to wanting all the weddings in Scotland? I don't. I said I have access to a constant stream of clients, weekly if I want. I am not going after anyone, I am looking to expand my photography and hopefully secure some form of future income that I enjoy.

Edinburgh BTW, is not exactly cheap. Even by London standards.

Gary.
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Garry, even with MY limited skills it still amounts to over over there abouts £1m.. thats a lot of dough! even with TAX and CSA! My brother in law is left with sod all after the CSA takes their cut.. im sure your doing OK..

If you want to do 300K a year on Weddings then im sure it will be the biggest slice of the pie! i mean, just how may wedding are there that can supply you with enough cash to meet that need.. in my mind, its going to be a large percentage of the BIG weddings.. not ALL the weddings.. im sure there are a lot going on all year.. but on the scale you'll need.. i doubt it..

All im saying is to meet your targets its going to take SOME if not a lot of work from the guys already trying to scratch a living.. :thumbs:
 
fraggle101 said:
Garry, even with MY limited skills it still amounts to over over there abouts £1m.. thats a lot of dough! even with TAX and CSA! My brother in law is left with sod all after the CSA takes their cut.. im sure your doing OK..

If you want to do 300K a year on Weddings then im sure it will be the biggest slice of the pie! i mean, just how may wedding are there that can supply you with enough cash to meet that need.. in my mind, its going to be a large percentage of the BIG weddings.. not ALL the weddings.. im sure there are a lot going on all year.. but on the scale you'll need.. i doubt it..

All im saying is to meet your targets its going to take SOME if not a lot of work from the guys already trying to scratch a living.. :thumbs:
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I think we have misunderstood one another on many levels.

1: Yes, I have earned a lot of money. But, to call it £1.5m is grossly unfair. 40% is a HUGE cut of *that*, and the CSA, another £12K per year.

2: I have ZERO expectation of earning £300K. It was merely a play on words, just my way of saying I would WANT to earn that to replace my current job. I understand that even £50K must be extremely hard as a wedding tog.

3: My target, is simply to keep my house if my business dies with the rest of the financial services market, and for me to have a decent wage doing something I enjoy.

Gary.
 
haven't read all of this thread but in nursing your only a professional if your registered, maybe its time wedding photographers set themselves up and professional body. It would have a few befits, people could search one website for photographers that meet the required standard, not so many people would have tears after the honeymoon and people would be less likely to book an unregistered person meaning more bookings for those registered. Just a thought.
 
Back on track, i thought Professional would imply your were expert.. but since realised that Pro means you make the bulk or all of your living in that profession. Expert on the other hand is entirely different.. :thumbs:
 
Toothie said:
haven't read all of this thread but in nursing your only a professional if your registered, maybe its time wedding photographers set themselves up and professional body. It would have a few befits, people could search one website for photographers that meet the required standard, not so many people would have tears after the honeymoon and people would be less likely to book an unregistered person meaning more bookings for those registered. Just a thought.
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There are several 'professional bodies' for wedding photography, unfortunately they cost little to join and the standard required to obtain their base qualifications is woefully low. The then duly 'qualified' photographer can then display their association memberships on their website and literature - the more associations, the worse the photography it sometimes appears.

To me they seem self-serving and more about back slapping photographers than providing any real protection to the fee paying general public.
 
swanseamale47 said:
Why is it every photographer and his cat seems to think they are all professional wedding photographers?

I bought a scalpel last week, maybe I should pop out and do some open heart surgery, or fix a tension pneumothorax? At least I have had some medical training, more than these guys have had photographic training.
:bang: Wayne
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I think you'll find that taking a few pics at a wedding is a bit easier than open heart surgery! :-)
 
Toothie said:
haven't read all of this thread but in nursing your only a professional if your registered, maybe its time wedding photographers set themselves up and professional body. Just a thought.
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I'm sure there are loads and loads of 'bodies' that us togs can send their money to so they can register us. But handing a couple of hundred quid to an organisation that puts your name on a list and sends you a certificate won't make you a better photographer.

So I'd say calm down, calm down. Plus, the difference between a nurse and a photographer is massive. A nurse gets paid even if they are just average, a tog that is average will struggle to eat. So there is an element of natural selection. Besides, no one ever died of an oof pic of a wedding cake.

Relax, it's only a picture.
 
MJ Stebbings said:
Dont be so sure........
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I've never had a go at open heart surgery to be honest, but I have done a few weddings. So put it this way, if heart surgey is as easy as a wedding, I'll be a little disappointed because there is a small difference in pay rates. And the surgeon doesn't need to worry about the wind and rain spoiling his day. :-)

Hahahahaha
 
a open heart surgeon will not get sued if he loses a patient. A photographer will if 1 out of 300 photos is not sharp because of cause that photo will have been the most important
 
artona said:
a open heart surgeon will not get sued if he loses a patient. A photographer will if 1 out of 300 photos is not sharp because of cause that photo will have been the most important
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Please don't think I'm defending nurses. My daughter very died under the care of an incompetent and quite frankly 'dirty' nurse. And yes, you are right, nothing happened to the nurse. So I take your point. If a tog is incompetent, he gets no work. It's not the same for those who work in the Public Sector.
 
Sued or not, i think killing someone is a little more important in the grand scheme of things.. :lol:

Not saying he'd have KILLED him.. you know what i mean.. :thumbs:
 
Badger UK said:
Please don't think I'm defending nurses. My daughter very died under the care of an incompetent and quite frankly 'dirty' nurse. And yes, you are right, nothing happened to the nurse. So I take your point. If a tog is incompetent, he gets no work. It's not the same for those who work in the Public Sector.
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If it was recent contact the nursing and midwifery council, they can remove the nurses licence to practice, the problem is not many people know the public can complain to them. Send me a PM if you want more info.
 
artona said:
Try asking a customer what a good photograph is. Most will not have a clue. Try asking the same group what makes a good car, ones mans Skoda will be anothers ferrari. It has nothing to do with being good. Fortunately Gary knew without me telling him so he lives to see another day :):)
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I think you underestimate people. Show a couple a portfolio of bad wedding photographs and they'll go and look elsewhere.
 
:shake:
Uneducated_Rick said:
Someone I know asked me to do their wedding in 2011, telling me I had 2 and a bit years to practise. I was shouting 'NO!' before they even finished the sentence. I don't want to ruin their wedding, and I wouldn't feel comfortable even with a couple of years notice
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I responded in exactly the same way last year for a 2009 wedding!!

My dad however is in my opinion a guy with camera and has been asked to do the photographs for a friends wedding (he's only known her for 4 months) in August. He went out and bought a 40D (to replace his 300D) and voila, instant wedding photographer! :bang: Never done a wedding before, admittably he isn't being paid but he is the only photographer there. Hasn't got a clue how to edit and sort photos after they've been taken, never edits any of his pics... :bang::shrug:

Good luck to him!!

I think a lot of people assume you're a fantastic photographer just because the kit you have looks impressive. How wrong they are... my kit might look impressive but I'm far from a good photographer!!! :shake:
 
Toothie said:
If it was recent contact the nursing and midwifery council, they can remove the nurses licence to practice, the problem is not many people know the public can complain to them. Send me a PM if you want more info.
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It was 3 years ago. We tried complaining at the time because the woman was dangerous. For example, for some strange reason, she once took out all my daughters stitchers (43 of them) from one of the operations she'd had only 3 hours after the operation. It resulted in a trip back to the theatre. A couple of days later, she redressed the wound with hands covered in somebody elses blood. It was a catologue of problems and the list is almost endless.

We told the ward manager and other nurses and a couple of doctors, but nothing happened. To complain formally looked like a very difficult job and we have other things to worry about at the time. We just wanted to get her out of Alder Hey and safley home. We took up 'Hospital at Home from Whiston Hospital which was a much better option in our opinion.

We've got over it now thanks, and we have now plans to take anything any further.
 
EdinburghGary said:
I took that home 3 years ago. Have taken close to it ever since. My point is, that is the level of income I would need to replace my job. Therefore, a full time wedding tog position does not appeal to me. Weekend pocket money however is a different story.

Please don't shoot me for what I earn, I have made no secret of my spending habits etc. Does not make me a knob, just open.

Gary.
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Without wishing to cause offence (but I probably will :lol:) someone in your position wanting to do wedding photography whilst already earning a seriously good income annoys me.

I have a cousin who is a multi-millionairess yet she goes out to work every day as a teacher. Now that might seem a good thing to do, get's her out the house etc, but to her (and I suspect to you with the wedding photography) the pay is just pocket money, meanwhile there is another teacher/photographer somewhere who could be feeding their kids with that same money.

I'm just sayin'.......
 
Flippin' ek Flash!! are we agreeing on something?? ;)


I can see Garys point though, his business is floundering atm.. so he needs to support himself with pocken money in case he goes below the 100k mark..


Is there a tongue in cheek smiley??? i cant find it.. :lol:
 
fraggle101 said:
Flippin' ek Flash!! are we agreeing on something?? ;)
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:suspect::shrug::thumbs:

I can see Garys point though, his business is floundering atm.. so he needs to support himself with pocken money in case he goes below the 100k mark..


Is there a tongue in cheek smiley??? i cant find it.. :lol:
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Things are so bad he doesn't know where is next million meal is coming from :lol:


(sorry, Gary ;))
 
I can see Garys point though, his business is floundering atm.. so he needs to support himself with pocken money in case he goes below the 100k mark..
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Personally, I'm not believing a word of that. I reckon Gary just want's to conquer shooting weddings because it's there to be conquered. ;):lol::lol:
 
Sadly, I'm not sure it works like that. Besides, how rich would someone have to be before they have to stop earning anymore? All these things are relative and using the same logic, a person who earns 11 grand as a cleaner would be saying the same thing about a person who earns 20 grand as a bus driver. A bus driver could say the same thing about a teacher who is on 40 grand and so on. How would it work?
 
Flash In The Pan said:
Without wishing to cause offence (but I probably will :lol:) someone in your position wanting to do wedding photography whilst already earning a seriously good income annoys me.

I have a cousin who is a multi-millionairess yet she goes out to work every day as a teacher. Now that might seem a good thing to do, get's her out the house etc, but to her (and I suspect to you with the wedding photography) the pay is just pocket money, meanwhile there is another teacher/photographer somewhere who could be feeding their kids with that same money.

I'm just sayin'.......
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Sadly, although I sort of see what you mean, I'm not sure it works like that. Besides, how rich would someone have to be before they have to stop earning anymore? All these things are relative and using the same logic, a person who earns 11 grand as a cleaner would be saying the same thing about a person who earns 20 grand as a bus driver. A bus driver could say the same thing about a teacher who is on 40 grand and so on. How would it work?
 
I've not read through all of the above thread but I'll hold my head up and admit that I am one of those walking in to the world of wedding photography without a clue.

I've had a keen interest in photography for about 10 years and have been playing around with a DSLR for the last 3 years learning as much as I can. I'm certainly not experienced however I do know my way around a camera and have a decent understanding of photoshop. Based on what I consider to be some fairly basic snap shots, I was approached by a friend of my girlfriend to photograph her wedding. She asked me about 12 months in advance so I was given plenty of time to prepare. I have stressed to her in the strongest possible terms that I am in no way qualified to do wedding photos and I can't give any guarantee what-so-ever that the pictures will be of a high standard but they are on a very tight budget and can't afford a pro. I'm not taking any money off them, all I'll do is ask them to pay for any albums or printing that they want once they've seen the results.

Luckily I have the advantage of having a sister who is a proper established wedding tog and she has offered to let me tag along with her a few times this year before I have to go it alone in August.

I actually quite fancy the idea of one day becoming a pro wedding tog but I am under no illusions about my current abilities. I am very nervous about doing my first wedding but I know that I will give it my best shot, I'll be prepared as I can be (including back-up equipment and an assistant) and I'll be my own worst critic once I see the results.

If any pro wedding togs have an issue with what I am doing then I totally understand, I have the same concerns but like someone has said in this thread, my 'skoda photos' may be the bride and groom's 'ferrari photos' if I get it right.
 
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