Why are all photographers Pros?

HoppyUK said:
'Professional' literally means that it is your profession, your job, what you do to earn your primary income.

The term has been misused for so long that it is now used to describe somebody who has such a level of competance that they could make a living at it, if they chose. But of course they choose not to, as they couldn't :D

Photography is a professional full of part-timers.

Richard.
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Oh sorry, I use the term PRO very loosely and care not for debating that word. I am only commenting on the reality of the situation as I perceive it. Shoot weddings at weekend, earn loads. Pro or not. As long as you are GOOD, then why not?

Gary.
 
Guys, thanks for your replies. This is a lively thread!

I'm not denying that £2k-plus weddings exist, or that people don't get married mid-week. I'm just saying that it's not the norm, and that getting regular work at that level is far from easy. If it was easy, we'd all be doing it.

And the end result is that, I say again, the vast majority of weddings are covered by part time freelances. Even real 'professional' wedding photographers employ freelances over the weekend so they can cover several weddings. The part timer then hand the pics over and the pro manages the business side during the week. That's how it works.

Regards,

Richard.
 
Bazza155 said:
Professional only means you are charging for the service........not that you are any good or competent.
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I agree but would also say a professional is someone who charges for their photography services and it's their full-time job or main source of income/livelihood. If they charge for their services in addition to another job then I'd class that as semi-professional perhaps?

To me a professional photographer is someone who can consistently get good results (and who charges). :)
 
At the end of the day though, these "Pros" will have to show evidence to couples of their photographic ability. So surely, once couples have seen this and compared to other photographers who have more experience in this field and have produced more outstanding portfolios, they won't get much in the way of work? :shrug:

I don't know, I haven't had the pleasure of arranging a wedding yet :lol:
 
EdinburghGary said:
Oh sorry, I use the term PRO very loosely and care not for debating that word. I am only commenting on the reality of the situation as I perceive it. Shoot weddings at weekend, earn loads. Pro or not. As long as you are GOOD, then why not?

Gary.
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And I'm commenting on the reality of the situation as it is for the overwhelming majority of weddings and photographers.

Of course there are exceptions, but to do what you are saying, is very much the exception. Which is possible. But unlikely.

Richard.
 
To be honest, I would drop the "pro" debate altogether. It is a pointless word in the context of this thread. Surely you are good enough, or you are not. Noone governs the use of the "pro" word, anyone can use it, therefore, the word deserves no real respect or attention. If a 16 year old with a brand new DSLR, having never used a camera before, can call himself "pro", then forget it. That word means NOTHING.

Proof is in the pudding. You are good, or you are not. Simple :)

Gary.
 
i'm currently working on a 5 year plan to go pro, there are huge amount of variables that affect this, the current finantial climate being one.

Even though i currently have 3 upcoming weddings booked i actively discuredged (spelling?) each of them, however each of them said they've seen my work and wanted me to do their photo's, now i'm not charging the earth, i'm working on a get what you pay for policy (as well as insuring myself) as i wasn't planning on doing weddings for another few years.... i don't even have a website yet lol. but if it picks up from these then i shall run with it as it is the end goal.

i work full time which is paying for my upgrades in equipment before the big days, and i will continue to work full time untill i start earning enough to pay the bills, then the day job will go and so will the cost of child care. i'm also not going to be shooting alone, one of my friends is an extremely experianced photographer and web designer is my 'second shooter' (using the term loosely) as it gives the two differant styles of photography from the day and captures more of the day.

even with my current bookings i still would not call myself a 'pro' as a pro to me is someone who makes their living from what they do, you don't see doctors spending their days fixing cars then doing diagnosis's in the street at weekends
 
The definition of Pro is almost totally irrelevant here though isn't it.

The pertinent facts are quite simple though. More and more people are offering all manner of photographic services. Some will be very good artists, some will have a great understanding of the physics. Some will take awful pics, some good ones...... etc etc etc.

From my point of view, good business and good morals dictate that I do two things. One is to keep my game as high as I can and always produce the best work I can and two, never have anything bad to say about the competition.

Although, I don't know if I fit most peoples idea of a "pro". I do charge people alot of money but it's not for the pics. I love to shoot and I'd do it for free if I could. What I charge the money for is being nice to the clients. ;)
 
HoppyUK said:
And I'm commenting on the reality of the situation as it is for the overwhelming majority of weddings and photographers.

Of course there are exceptions, but to do what you are saying, is very much the exception. Which is possible. But unlikely.

Richard.
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Well tell me why, in Edinburgh, so many are charging over £2K per wedding? It's not that much of an exception in my neck of the woods.

I really hope to prove you wrong, please stick around :)

Gary.
 
A few years a go a professional photographer was someone who earned the majority of his income from photography.

If this is the case I have been a professional photographer since 1978. I am not saying I have earned a lot of money, but it has all come from photography. I am not saying I am a good photographer but I can work out what customers want because they keep buying.

In the 80s I knew of a chap who set up as a wedding photographer. He was great at landscapes and had sold double glazing so knew how to sell. He convinced half a dozen brides his album had been destroyed in a car accident. We last saw him running down the high street being chased by a bride holding out of focus photographs.

Currently I know a commercial photographer whose wife shoots weddings at £3000 a time. She uses his 1ds set to auto and set to shoot raw so he can sort them out afterwards as she does not know the first thing about photography/cameras/exposure/colour temp etc etc but she can point and shoot.

There is a secret to being a professional photographer but if I told you lot I would have to shoot ya lol


stew
 
artona said:
He convinced half a dozen brides his album had been destroyed in a car accident. We last saw him running down the high street being chased by a bride holding out of focus photographs.
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I think he did my friend's wedding. Lucky they were quite relaxed about the woeful album they got a mere 2 years after their wedding with scratches on the images to match the one he gave the vintage car they hired when his tripod fell on it ...

But, apparently, he'd been a pro for ten years. So being balls is apparently no barrier to earning a living. His phone goes unanswered now though so maybe not everybody was so relaxed about it.
 
artona said:
Currently I know a commercial photographer whose wife shoots weddings at £3000 a time. She uses his 1ds set to auto and set to shoot raw so he can sort them out afterwards as she does not know the first thing about photography/cameras/exposure/colour temp etc etc but she can point and shoot.

There is a secret to being a professional photographer but if I told you lot I would have to shoot ya lol


stew
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Some people will gasp when they read this but it is the end product that is important and if the customer is happy.

but 3000 grand phew thats a lot of money.
 
artona said:
There is a secret to being a professional photographer but if I told you lot I would have to shoot ya lol
stew
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Surely, simple but effective marketing can help sell anyone or anything? Other than that, actually being good, and word of mouth.

I reckon it would be a piece of cake, just said cake would need to pay a hell of a lot before it got serious consideration on a full time basis. Show me a pro tog who earns £300K a year and tell me his secrets :D

Gary.
 
I just don't see how they can do it. I would never have the confidence to try and charge somebody for me to take pictures at their wedding! I understand the basics and all, but the pressure of getting it all right on the day, I couldn't handle! I am very interested in making it a career in the future, but for now I've got far too much to learn for me to possibly take that responsibility!

I'm going to be offering my services for free for a long time before I think of charging anyone. Saying that, a few friends are forcing money on me for photos... but that's not my fault :D
 
EdinburghGary said:
Well tell me why, in Edinburgh, so many are charging over £2K per wedding? It's not that much of an exception in my neck of the woods.

I really hope to prove you wrong, please stick around :)

Gary.
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Try living in Cheshire! 2K is the starting point for many of the professional wedding togs around here. The top end of the market, Damien Lovegrove starts at 5K and Brett Harkness once received 12K. I know these guys are the exception rather than the norm but in my market research for my business plan 2-3K was not exceptional in the area in which I am starting to work.

As for not many being full time, I'm a member of the SWPP and most of the people I know and meet with are just that, full time. By the time you do the shoot (which can be any day of the week) and process the images and do proper album design, then there is the pre wedding meet and perhaps a post wedding shoot too. It can easily end up being 3-4 days work. Then there is your own business to take care for with marketing and networking and accounting.If you are trying to fit that lot into a working week you are going to struggle, unless you are offering a very basic product of a book of barely processed shots.
 
Gawd, everyone gets so obsessed about weddings in this place these days don't they.
I'm thinking of carving out a new niche - funeral photography. Or maybe not. :)
 
I wouldn't bother, it's a dying market :D

:coat:
 
I'm thinking of carving out a new niche - funeral photography. Or maybe not.
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Why not. At least you know they're going to stay dead.

As a rule I turn down all the wedding enquiries I get but I was playing with the idea of offering to do some but only as a twin album his and hers pack. Both come in a full presentation pack with a special polishing and care kit, a plastic bag suitable for when they're moved up to the loft and finally, a small sachet of lighter fluid and a match. ;);)
 
EdinburghGary said:
Well tell me why, in Edinburgh, so many are charging over £2K per wedding? It's not that much of an exception in my neck of the woods.

I really hope to prove you wrong, please stick around :)

Gary.
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Gary, I'm sorry that I'm painting a rather gloomy picture here. I should stop that, because what you're saying is quite true - the work is there and a top quality service will win it. Good for you, and good luck to you. It's just not like that for most people.

What truly differentiates the successful folks from the norm is actually not lots of photographic ability or nice kit (that's a given, usually ;) ) but personality. Defining that is difficult, but you know it when you see it. I've been fortunate to meet a lot of famous photographers and they all have lots of it. Conceptually, what you are saying is indeed simple, but don't confuse simple with easy.

I really don't mean to be patronising now mate, but you sound like you might just have the personality to make it work. There's another guy on here who posts glamour and fashion. Amazing pictures. Australian - Jason somebody? Anyway, of course everybody asks how he does it, and he explains. His technique is not unusual for a pro doing this kind of work, but I very much doubt that too many folks on here will get anywhere near his standard of work, because the guy is loaded with personaility that makes things happen for him with the best girls, the best clothes and props, in the best locations, working for top clients.

Go for it :)

Best regards,

Richard.
 
Whilst I wouldn't take money off anyone I did a (skint) friend's wedding a few years ago and many of the photos were better than I've seen some pros do. The pro who did my own wedding though produced significantly better shots than I did!

There are people who earn money from taking photos. These are all pros.
Then there are people who are good at taking photos, paid or not. These are good photographers. Surely anyone getting married would want to see a tog's portfolio before committing?
 
Dangleman said:
I'm thinking of carving out a new niche - funeral photography. Or maybe not. :)
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I think as long as you get paid upfront you will do ok. This is not one for invoicing, you will have a long wait .........
 
bradleysmith said:
Whilst I wouldn't take money off anyone I did a (skint) friend's wedding a few years ago and many of the photos were better than I've seen some pros do. The pro who did my own wedding though produced significantly better shots than I did!

There are people who earn money from taking photos. These are all pros.
Then there are people who are good at taking photos, paid or not. These are good photographers. Surely anyone getting married would want to see a tog's portfolio before committing?
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Try asking a customer what a good photograph is. Most will not have a clue. Try asking the same group what makes a good car, ones mans Skoda will be anothers ferrari. It has nothing to do with being good. Fortunately Gary knew without me telling him so he lives to see another day :):)
 
Wedding photography is not just about taking pictures, if it was, it wouldn't be so difficult.

Wedding photography is one of the most difficult areas for any tog to work in, you need to crowd control, be a psychologist, diplomat, arbitrator, social worker, counsellor, referee, marketing manager and style guru before you can think about taking any images.

Any 'good' wedding tog will have a handle on all (or most) of these.

Taking a picture of Beuchaile Etive Mor at -10C on a freezing January morning is a walk in the park compared to a run of the mill wedding shoot.
 
Dangleman said:
Gawd, everyone gets so obsessed about weddings in this place these days don't they.
I'm thinking of carving out a new niche - funeral photography. Or maybe not. :)
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Personally I'd rather gouge out my eyes than spend the rest of my life doing Wedding Photography, I have no interest in making money out of taking pictures but if I were to consider it Wedding tog would be at pretty much the bottom of the list. Sure it's an easy(ish) market compared to alot of more specialised photography but I wouldn't want to sell my soul to that devil ever.
 
EdinburghGary said:
Show me a pro tog who earns £300K a year and tell me his secrets :D

Gary.
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Is that what you are EXPECTING to earn Gary?? :gag: If so, then i think you are severely deluded mate! :lol:
 
Id be happy to be able to give up my day job and earn 40K!! it'd have to be more though as i likes to have holidays..:lol:

I'll keep looking, but the work isnt breaking the door down..
 
artona said:
...Currently I know a commercial photographer whose wife shoots weddings at £3000 a time. She uses his 1ds set to auto and set to shoot raw so he can sort them out afterwards as she does not know the first thing about photography/cameras/exposure/colour temp etc etc but she can point and shoot.
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Interesting example. This lady clearly has something special to offer beyond mere technical ability. This is what separates the exceptional and successful from ordinary folks.

I can think of another photographer like this - Mario Testino. Lady Di's favourite photographer. Self-taught playboy turned photographer. If you look closely at his work, he's technically a bit wobbly but I paid to look round his exhibition at the National Portrait gallery and one way or another he's nailed some fantastic pictures and seems to make a fine living shooting the rich and beautiful.

Richard.
 
Wedding photography is something that interests me, not from a money point of view, as I am lucky to be in a proffession I really enjoy, from my point of view I am just interested in photographing people, especially in a reportage style, as I love peoples natural expressions and a wedding for me can result in people feeling a lot of different emotions, pride of the parents, joy of the couple, happiness of friends etc etc

Now I am a lot more familiar with my kit, have a workflow for processing the images that I have developed and understand and have invested a good few thousand quid in some decent gear etc etc would I like to get some experience as a second shooter. I am a bit scared that there are people buying a DSLR and two weeks later declaring themselves a pro wedding togger. :eek:

BTW just to hijack the thread momentarily, if anyone in the North West would like to meet up with a view to offering me some experience then I would love to hear from you :wave:
 
a1ex2001 said:
Personally I'd rather gouge out my eyes than spend the rest of my life doing Wedding Photography, I have no interest in making money out of taking pictures but if I were to consider it Wedding tog would be at pretty much the bottom of the list. Sure it's an easy(ish) market compared to alot of more specialised photography but I wouldn't want to sell my soul to that devil ever.
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Each to their own aint it. I've done weddings, most as second shooter but 3 or 4 on my own. To be honest with the early ones I don't think I was really ready looking back, but the guy I was working for thought I was so I blame him:). The last one I did though (a massive Asian wedding, that was mental) produced some of the best pics I've ever done, and the couple absolutely loved them too (more importantly!) I don't do weddings as a rule though and don't really want to.
 
artona said:
Currently I know a commercial photographer whose wife shoots weddings at £3000 a time. She uses his 1ds set to auto and set to shoot raw so he can sort them out afterwards as she does not know the first thing about photography/cameras/exposure/colour temp etc etc but she can point and shoot.

stew
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That would be an interesting album to look at Stew! On auto? I wonder how she handles flash work and what the first dance pics look like on auto?

Personally I shoot mine on ISO400 f5.6 shutter below 1/60 and set to second curtain synch with an off camera flash. :shrug:
 
Whilst understanding the OP point of view, there is the other side of the fence.

I was at a wedding recently shot by a well known wedding specialist. He had all the gear with bodies all set up so no lens changes needed, tripods, lighting and remotes all over the place etc.etc.

What he put up in his website later, amongst some crackers, was stuff I would have binned.

The bride and groom had a lot of hassle getting an album of good shots and preferred quite a few of my shots.

So my point is you can get bad results from established folk as well as from new folk.
 
EdinburghGary said:
Not even remotely :D Thats what I would want to earn in order to quit the day job ;)
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You need 300K to be able to give up the day job!! what are you, KING of Scotland?? it seems a little away with the fairies to say you need 300K! as i said earlier, 40K would do it for me to be doing something i love for a living! i shouldn't think there are many people at all the can command that amount from photography.. im not going to blow smoke up your rear end like some others seem to do , your an OK tog.. but not 300K worth im affraid! that will be a long way off yet..:lol:
 
fraggle101 said:
You need 300K to be able to give up the day job!! what are you, KING of Scotland?? it seems a little away with the fairies to say you need 300K! as i said earlier, 40K would do it for me to be doing something i love for a living! i shouldn't think there are many people at all the can command that amount from photography.. im not going to blow smoke up your rear end like some others seem to do , your an OK tog.. but not 300K worth im affraid! that will be a long way off yet..:lol:
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I took that home 3 years ago. Have taken close to it ever since. My point is, that is the level of income I would need to replace my job. Therefore, a full time wedding tog position does not appeal to me. Weekend pocket money however is a different story.

Please don't shoot me for what I earn, I have made no secret of my spending habits etc. Does not make me a knob, just open.

Gary.
 
Mikesphotaes said:
Whilst understanding the OP point of view, there is the other side of the fence.

I was at a wedding recently shot by a well known wedding specialist. He had all the gear with bodies all set up so no lens changes needed, tripods, lighting and remotes all over the place etc.etc.

What he put up in his website later, amongst some crackers, was stuff I would have binned.

The bride and groom had a lot of hassle getting an album of good shots and preferred quite a few of my shots.

So my point is you can get bad results from established folk as well as from new folk.
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Thats just it, even the best dont hit the nail on the head EVERY shot..

a lot of this wedding trouble is that some people are better at marketing themselves than others.. a bit of charisma and the gift of the gab can also go a long way..

Iv not gone Pro because im always doubting myself.. and if i cant be confident im GOING to shoot a blinder then i wouldnt have the Gall to promote myself..

I suppose its a sense of responsibility.. if someone was going to pay me for shots then I'D want them to be perfect.. not just OK..
 
I never called you a knob!!! what the hell are you talking about!!!

Im saying that 300k as ANY kind of tog is going to be VERY difficult!!

Oh.. and well done you.. if you can make that sort of cash then maybe you should be thinking about leaving these expensive weddings to those that are working their arse off for a LIVING.. not just spending money..

Just a though you understand.... :thumbs:
 
fraggle101 said:
I never called you a knob!!! what the hell are you talking about!!!

Im saying that 300k as ANY kind of tog is going to be VERY difficult!!

Oh.. and well done you.. if you can make that sort of cash then maybe you should be thinking about leaving these expensive weddings to those that are working their arse off for a LIVING.. not just spending money..

Just a though you understand.... :thumbs:
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Sorry I was not accusing you of calling me a name. I was being defensive up front I guess. I have had issues in the past, spoke about my earnings once on a forum, and it was a mess. For the record, I am having a real bad year in comparison, due to the credit crunch. Still relatively very comfortable, but it feels much less secure than it used to.

Upping my game by getting into photography as a business, seems sensible as a backup plan. I have worked hard to reduce my mortgage to a manageable level, and I would like to, if my business hit the rocks, I would like to be in a position to earn a *normal wage* and keep my house / cars and other toys.

As a result, wedding photography is going to be a big focus for me and the other forum member this coming year.

Gary.
 
It's the same in more or less any industry, and very apparent in my industry (web design/development) - anyone who owns a copy of Front Page Express or a cracked version of Dreamweaver suddenly thinks they're an expert web designer and as a result when you say to a potential client that it's going to cost £XXXX for their web site, they often reply "Well, my brother-in-law's cousin's son can do it for 50 quid!"
 
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