Why are all photographers Pros?

swanseamale47

swanseamale47

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wayne clarke
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Why is it every photographer and his cat seems to think they are all professional wedding photographers?
I ask because this week I have met 2 in my area, one bought his first SLR last week, he's set up a studio, and is taking bookings for weddings etc. He's got no experience of photography mind you, and he only bought the camera, no flash or anything like that because he doesn't know what he needs.
The other I bumped into out and about, he's the experienced one, he got his first camera for Christmas so a whole 2 weeks more than the other guy, no previous experience, but Hey I'm a wedding photographer!
It seems strange that photography seems to suffer more than other business in this way. People don't buy a spanner and instantly call themselves a mechnic.
I bought a scalpel last week, maybe I should pop out and do some open heart surgery, or fix a tension pneumothorax? At least I have had some medical training, more than these guys have had photographic training.
Somewhere down the line chances are these and others will screw up somebodies special day, then us "real" pros get a bad name, it can only damage the industry.
:bang: Wayne
 
We all have to start somewhere, They are obviously going straight into the deep end and will learn from there mistakes (probably the hard way too)

Word of mouth will get round that they are "Not so good" eventually, so I wouldn't worry about it.
 
swanseamale47 said:
People don't but a spanner and instantly call themselves a mechnic.
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Unfortunately, they do and I have serious doubts about most of the gasfitters I've met and they were all Corgi registered :suspect:

I think as the recession bites you'll see more and more new "pro" wedding photographers setting up shop with just a £200 dslr and a basic grasp of how to use it.Unfortunately a lot of couples looking to keep the costs down are going to end up sorely disappointed....:shake:
 
to say it only effect photogrpahy is a little bit silly, having worked in IT for years I've met plenty of contractors and consultants who despite charginf £500-£1000 a day would have struggled to hold down a job on our helpdesk. Being a pro tog has nothing to do with ability or knowledge and everything to do with making money and if they are making money they are pro's, feel sorry for there potential customers but this has been happening for years and years so it's nothing new.
 
Just hope they have a good Professional Indemnity Insurance.
 
I knew when i took up photography again that i would give myself a year at least before considering taking money from people :D
 
since using pointsandshoots is simple, and a lot of people associate slrs with good pics, then it sounds simple and easy. they have no experience of what kit is available or the differences between them. the bloke in jessops has told them that the bottom of the range slr is the dogs gonads and an excellent camera. it has a built in flash, which since dslrs are better than p&s means it is brilliant. the kit lens zooms and you have to turn the ring to do it, another sign that you are at top end cameras.

On the other side, all your friends see it and think, wow, you got a big camera, you must be good. so they ask if you can help out with there cheap wedding, you agree, the weather is ok, the guests all behave themselves and you get some alright pictures. the camera gear doesnt die or anything and all your friends say your really good and should do it for a living. 2 days later you have a website and are ready to go even though you have never been out of auto.

just sounds so simple and isnt till you realise how difficult it can be or what your missing that you appreciate the proper "pro" tog and there abilities.

Also remember that formal qualifications arent required, so an easy business to set up. pay £300-500 on a camera and go get it.


all i can say is good luck to them, they will need it
 
Think "engineers" have a hard time too - there are ones with degrees and recognition from the engineering council... then I've heard of an automotive engineer who had to ring the AA to start his car, an electrical engineer called "john sparky" and sanitation engineers who came in a dynorod van and used a nice big hosepipe to clean my drains. All nice people, but I feel for the people who spent 3/4 years at University and 3 years of professional accreditation to be able to use the same title.:bang:

On the other hand, if really pushed into a corner I will have to admit that officially I'm a "professional" photographer... earning all of £200 last year :lol:. But then thats because after five years of ill health I was made redundant, and had to try something while my health slowly builds. And its much easier to get things like car insurance if you're self employed than unemployed. But it's not something I would ever volunteer in conversation - far too embarrassing - people might think I did weddings. :runaway:
 
swanseamale47 said:
Why is it every photographer and his cat seems to think they are all professional wedding photographers?
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I totally agree Wayne and I totally agreed a long time before I took the plunge myself.

I had a real spat with the editor of Practical Photography over this very subject last year. Articles saying you can go into Jessops, pick up a dslr and a kit lens, add a stepladder, tripod a cheap suit and a mars bar and off you go. And no I'm honestly not being facetious with that comment, that is exactly what they wrote. They did however illustrate their article with some fab shots..........taken using 1000's of pounds worth of gear.

I told the editor it was grossly irresponsible journalism and that if it led to someone messing up a wedding by doing just that then it was just as much his fault for allowing inexperienced togs loose at a wedding. They certainly did not bother about professional indemnity insurance. :shrug:

The training days I have been on with Mark Cleghorn and Brett Harkness, both of them stressed that they wanted to help to "raise the bar" of wedding photography.

And that's the answer Wayne, provide top quality service with good creative photography and good products and the "gwc" (guy with camera) will never be able to compete.
 
See i posted a thread about my friend becoming a "pro" last month and everyone said good on him and if hes good then why not...yet everyone is now saying that just buying a camera and charging people is bad. And i know some of those people have posted on here now.

Not saying people change opinions but people change opinions...:p

I got so frustrated with the fact that ive got an A level in photography and i still wouldnt charge anyone for pictures for at least another year and a mate that has been watching me for a while has had a camera for 2 minutes charges people and then comes and asks me for advice
 
Professional only means you are charging for the service........not that you are any good or competent.
 
I got Flamed for raising this very issue a few months ago, probably by people protecting their welfare, I see people taking wedding photo's and getting paid good money for doing so with a compact?

I know some people can produce with a compact what most of us need a DSLR for BUT they are few and far between, I have togging for many years but still would'nt charge for a wedding for a friend, if they wer'nt a friend then thats a different matter, some people do a course some go to uni to learn for me the only way is to get out there and do it, whatever the subject there is no substitute for hands on experience IMHO :thumbs:
 
I am no where near confident for a paid wedding and i have been taking photos seriously for 2+ years.
 
Just to add to this i am a qualified mechanic and have been since 1991. It took me 3 years to qualify and a lot of hard work!. Due to an injury sustained some 13 years ago on a motorcycle the time has come to change career. I have been taking pics with an slr since i was 16 and have just got back into it after a 5 year lay-off. I am taking a course at a local college which will give me experience with using the camera, exposure, framing etc but that does not mean i will call myself a "pro". I am thinking of doing it for a living at some point but will be atleast 12 months before i do. You cant just buy a cheap camera and go out and do wedding etc. You need kit!!!!. i will not be venturing into this until i have all the kit i need and am confident i can make people happy.

I just think that some people have visions of grandure!!!!!!! buy a cam, set up website, do weddings and make a fortune............. well they deserve everything they get!
 
I cant explain the amount of people that have come to the Dominican Republic and tried taking pictures of kiters for a living and left 3 months later. One guy turned up with a 1d MkIIn a 300mm f2.8 and the sturdiest tripod ever and he was PANTSSSSS terrible photographer, and he considered himself pro even *** you could tell he was just some guy with a little money to spend and no talent watSOEVER. It makes me a little angry actually :D
 
It's an unfortunate development which digital has brought with it. Lots of people buy the camera and think it will produce for them images just as good as the pro round the corner with no effort from them, and I'm quite sure digital processing isn't even something they are aware of at the outset. It's really quite staggering ignorance, coupled with skin like a rhino to even think about charging people for work. It's also ignorance in a lot of the customers who just think because he has the fancy camera he can do the job.

If the vast majority had to shoot a wedding on film, they'd disappear like snow before the sun, but it's not going to happen - digital is here to stay, truly wonderful technology it is, but it's opened the floodgates on this new generation of 'pros' and they're only going to increase.

Just make sure your own work sets you apart from them and don't lose any sleep over it. ;)
 
AliB said:
I...

I had a real spat with the editor of Practical Photography over this very subject last year. Articles saying you can go into Jessops, pick up a dslr and a kit lens, add a stepladder, tripod a cheap suit and a mars bar and off you go.
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Ah that's where I've been going wrong - forgot the cheap suit and ate the mars bar already!

Dom_Cabarete said:
See i posted a thread about my friend becoming a "pro" last month and everyone said good on him and if hes good then why not...yet everyone is now saying that just buying a camera and charging people is bad. And i know some of those people have posted on here now.

Not saying people change opinions but people change opinions...:p
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Its difficult if you don't know how good someone is when you hear that they are going "pro". I've certainly made supportive noises to people because it is a big, nerve wracking step to take. I've been happier to put more than a general statement of support if I've seen some of their photos.

One of the hard things is that it isn't just the quality of the photos - a bad wedding photographer may still sell photos because they are the only record of the day. And I've certainly seen some fantastic fine art photos that don't sell because only photographers seem to notice the extra quality, but often I'd sooner aim to take a photo of the same quality rather than buy someone else's. Sounds very harsh to say but it's true.
 
Anybody booking a wedding should [and if they dont they must be a bit stupid] ask to look at a portfolio.

If the client is happy with what has been previously taken i cant see the probelm.

If the price is right and the pictures are good enough for the couple what does it matter what camera they are taken on or how many years the photographer has been taking photos ect.
 
It took me two years and I still don't call myself anything other than barely competent!

My approach was structured. learn everything I can about my camera (then a 20D) start doing portraits of friends. Go on a studio lighting course. Upgrade to 5D practice, practice, practice. Go on wedding shoots as a second until my output is as good as my pro's. Shoot some friends weddings as their present.Upgrade second body and off camera flash gear.Go on winter weddings course to learn more about off camera flash and low light work. Practice, practice, practice. Shoot first solo wedding as a pro. Go on more off camera flash training (fashion style) Arrange wedding setup pics with model, practice practice. Go on more training for shooting kids, practice, practice.................

Yes you can go and buy a camera and call yourself a pro but if you want to be any good at it, if you want to have an end product that you can sell for enough money to make a living then you had better be prepared for some hard work.
 
I went to a Nurses Graduation Ball Last week (my wife passed :D ) and the chap who was taking the official photos had a canon standard lens and some full size lights, i was a bit concerned he put us close to the bookshelf as i thought that wouldn't look to hot when i saw the pictures, then i got the proof :( im sure i could have done better, with some time and my little sb-800 setup

http://www.digitallifescape.com/events/2009/0110/images/1001-59.jpg

They are www.digitallifescape.com ive never heard of them
 
hmmm... thats not great at all
 
it doesnt jolsterj. but it isnt about what they have got in the past, its about what they can do for you. if you dont get the right weather conditions or they suffer equipment failure, how can they see whether the tog can cope with it? in answer they cant, because they know nothing about photography. if you shot five weddings for friends you should be able to put together a portfolio of nice pictures showing the best of what you got that would actually look good. but if they put there 50 best pics in the portfolio, how do you know what there normal shots come out like??

remember joe bloggs will think, they are pro so they are good, that is why they are a pro. i know they should do some research into it, but how far do they go??? the photography is only one part of the big day, the wedding dress is another, do they understand everything involved in the dress they are buying? do they think about the dress shop messing up and ruining the dress? you dont here much of it as they think the dress shop is full of professionals who know what they are doing and will get the job done right.

in the end they will make there decisions and live with the choices they made.

i have nothing against low end gear and i realise it is more than capable of getting the required shots, but in my eyes a pro has the equipment to do the job properly and would spend to suit it. someone turning up to shoot a wedding on a canon 1000d or nikon d40 who is being paid top money for it would look rather suspicious.
 
swanseamale47 said:
Somewhere down the line chances are these and others will screw up somebodies special day, then us "real" pros get a bad name, it can only damage the industry.
:bang: Wayne
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You make some very valid points Wayne, but I think you might be worrying about this a little too much. :) I doubt that your business or rep will be threatened by so-called 'gwcs'. A website is nothing without a portfolio. Most people know that you get what you pay for. Anyone with half a brain will check out a photographer's portfolio and want to see examples of their work before hiring them for an important occasion such as a wedding.

We've all had experiences with bad mechanics, builders etc. We don't necessarily tar them all with the same brush. We're just more careful the next time around and go on recommendations.

Personally, I wouldn't dream of charging people until I am certain that I can deliver a very high standard. Those that do will either rise to the challenge or (very) quickly fall by the wayside as the work dries up. Just my thoughts on this.
 
Going back quite a few years with this, but I can recall most of the film photo mags warning amateurs off taking wedding pics because if a mess is made of them it will seriously ruin some folks memory of the wedding.
I'd not like to be responsible for that.
 
My brother-in-law wanted me to do his wedding (for free of course) in march, i politely refused and told him to get an pro-wedding tog, i know monies tight but being able to take a correctly exposed photo is about 10% of what being a wedding tog is all about.

Cheap git :razz: LOL
 
Someone I know asked me to do their wedding in 2011, telling me I had 2 and a bit years to practise. I was shouting 'NO!' before they even finished the sentence. I don't want to ruin their wedding, and I wouldn't feel comfortable even with a couple of years notice
 
One day I would like to consider my self as a "pro", however that is the last part of my 5 year plan. If it takes longer then so be it, but the last thing people should do is rush into things. I don't think I would want the pressure of taking someone's wedding photo's!
 
I suspect this is about to get a lot worse.

A lot of people will be getting some sort of redundancy payment over the next 18 months. A little encouragement from their other half and they will buy some upgrades to their kit and stick an advert in the local paper. A small percentage will actually get insurance, learn how to use the kit, practise and get experience before they charge. The majority will be willing to do weddings at ridiculous prices (low) and produce very poor results.

It is going to take a while to sort out but in 12 months time and for the following few years there will be a lot of good kit available very cheaply as they fail.

There is going to be a lot of price pressure on photographers. I already have established clients asking for deals and bookings renegotiating prices. Survival is going to be a key term for many of us but the ones that do survive will come through this leaner and stronger and better positioned than ever.

No point in getting angry about it. You are going to see people with pro bodies and lenses in all areas of photography who really do not have a clue. Just look at the kit and think 'thats going to be mine' in about 18 months :)

John
 
swanseamale47 said:
Why is it every photographer and his cat seems to think they are all professional wedding photographers?
I ask because this week I have met 2 in my area, one bought his first SLR last week, he's set up a studio, and is taking bookings for weddings etc. He's got no experience of photography mind you, and he only bought the camera, no flash or anything like that because he doesn't know what he needs.
The other I bumped into out and about, he's the experienced one, he got his first camera for Christmas so a whole 2 weeks more than the other guy, no previous experience, but Hey I'm a wedding photographer!
It seems strange that photography seems to suffer more than other business in this way. People don't buy a spanner and instantly call themselves a mechnic.
I bought a scalpel last week, maybe I should pop out and do some open heart surgery, or fix a tension pneumothorax? At least I have had some medical training, more than these guys have had photographic training.
Somewhere down the line chances are these and others will screw up somebodies special day, then us "real" pros get a bad name, it can only damage the industry.
:bang: Wayne
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Good on them I say, and I do feel sorry for the first few mugs which get poor photos.

I love that get up and go attitude though, I really do. I would NEVER claim to be a pro, but I would in an instant, if I were given the chance, do a wedding. In fact, myself and another member here have been working secretly on getting into weddings in a BIG way. Once done, we will be in a position to shoot a wedding every week. The enquiry sources have as much business as we can take.

At the end of the day, weddings are big money, and EASY to get into. Doing the service jusice though, is where you need to do the work. Also, you need a decent business head on your shoulders to keep on top of all the usual bumph that goes with running a company. One wedding a week for someone who is decent, could make you a VERY decent wage.

Gary.
 
very true gary, but we dont all have you ability;)
 
fletch5 said:
very true gary, but we dont all have you ability;)
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I disagree :D We are all capable of mastering the camera, and surely we can all keep a box of receipts for the accountant at year end. I love to see things as simplistically as possible, makes it much easier to make a go of your ideas.

Gary.
 
jpwone said:
No point in getting angry about it. You are going to see people with pro bodies and lenses in all areas of photography who really do not have a clue. Just look at the kit and think 'thats going to be mine' in about 18 months :)

John
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:lol: :clap:

Sadly, its the way of the world.
We got screwed over by a guy claiming he was a damp proofing specialist. Didnt use the right gear and we got damp back in our house. Called another company and they knew the guy. How? He was an ex OFFICE employee who was laid off because he didnt know what he was talking about with regards to damp proofing. Them laying him off resulted in him setting up his own company and people like us getting done!

These things happen in every business, just look at the TV programme "Rouge Traders". I also read some photo magazine letters page once that some guy charged £300 for wedding photography and turned up with a P&S. :lol:
 
yep i mean id like to be a pro, but i dont have the skill, or the intelligence to do it
 
thats not what its meant to mean though... in which lies the problem i think :p
 
There are 2 definitions of Professional broken down as either Skill or Knowledge & Training.

Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, Teachers etc require Knowledge and training to become Professional and their skills improve with experience.

Photography like all artistic talents requires SKILL first. I have read many times that running a photography business is 20% photography and 80% business knowledge.

I have never read anybody who has put business knowledge before Photography skill.

The world is full of Walter Mitty types (known as Walts) in all non qualification roles. There is another breed called 'Wanabe's (older members of the breed are called 'Couldabeen's') this breed populate those area,s where a 'professional qualification' is required.

:cuckoo::cuckoo::cuckoo::cuckoo:

See Wikiwhatever http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Mitty
 
EdinburghGary said:
...weddings are big money, and EASY to get into...One wedding a week for someone who is decent, could make you a VERY decent wage.
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You're dreaming Gary. Sorry to say :shake:

Your view doesn't explain the fact that in reality the vast majority of 'professional' wedding photographers are part time freelances.

Our wedding photographer was very good, plenty experienced and very capable. He was also a full time bus driver. As someone else said, photographic skill is about 10% of what it takes, but that's by the way.

To make a "VERY decent wage" after all your expenses, and given that since all wedings are on a Saturday it's very hard to do more than one a week even in 'the season' how much are you going to charge?

The market for two grand wedding shoots is kind of, erm, miniscule.

Richard.
 
HoppyUK said:
You're dreaming Gary. Sorry to say :shake:

Your view doesn't explain the fact that in reality the vast majority of 'professional' wedding photographers are part time freelances.

Our wedding photographer was very good, plenty experienced and very capable. He was also a full time bus driver. As someone else said, photographic skill is about 10% of what it takes, but that's by the way.

To make a "VERY decent wage" after all your expenses, and given that since all wedings are on a Saturday it's very hard to do more than one a week even in 'the season' how much are you going to charge?

The market for two grand wedding shoots is kind of erm, miniscule.
Richard.
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Not in London, and not in EDI. My wedding photos cost £3,200. I got quotes from upwards of 6 guys, cheapest was £1800. In terms of costs, other than gear and the prints / album, and a tank of petrol, its just time? Get good enough to charge £2,000 a pop, and have a very comfortable living. Get good enough to charge £3,200, OR find a really stupid client (Harro!), even better.

Not trying to make it sound simple, but in my head, "it sounds simple".

Maybe I am wrong, I hope I am right though.

I should add, if the bus driver only shot at the weekends, then why not suppliment the income with full time work? If I could make £2K a weekend, I would not quit my day job. I would just earn more.

Gary.
 
HoppyUK said:
and given that since all wedings are on a Saturday it's very hard to do more than one a week even in 'the season' how much are you going to charge?
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All Weddings are on a Saturday? Thats news to me, maybe I'm aimagining the two midweek ones I went to last year and the Sunday Wedding I'm going to next year? Either you hang out with lots of rich people (Saturday weddings are about 25% more expensive) or you don't know what your on about.
 
'Professional' literally means that it is your profession, your job, what you do to earn your primary income.

The term has been misused for so long that it is now used to describe somebody who has such a level of competance that they could make a living at it, if they chose. But of course they choose not to, as they couldn't :D

Photography is a profession full of part-timers.

Richard.
 
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