Who's good at maths?

rjbell

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If I was offered 5yr fixed at 3.55% and 2 yr at 2.05%. How much would have interest rates needed to rise when taken another 2yr fixed to have spent the same on interest after 4 yrs? Does that make sense? I've not explained myself very well.
 
I haven't done the maths, but gut feel says it's around a 2% rise. I.e. take the 2 year ;)
 
3%

3.55 X 4 = 14 2
2.05 X 2 = 4.1
14.2 - 4.1 = 10.1
10.1 / 2 = 5.05
5.05 - 2.05 = 3%
 
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b****r. It's 2.5%.

That assumes

1. Interest only and all payments made on time
2. No capital repayments
3. Rate rises during the first 2 years and then not again (i.e. worst case scenario)
4. NO FEES for either product (or the same fees) and really watch out for those because they make all the difference.
5. That you don't do anything with the money you save in years 1 and 2 - you should be able to stick it somewhere and get a little interest or overpay and reduce the capital
6. That you really meant 5 years not 4 ;)

mortgage%20rate.jpg
 
Just logged into my mortgage and got the figures wrong sorry. Its 2.73% of 2yrs and 3.55% for 5 yrs so not as big a difference as i thought.
 
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Just logged into my mortgage and got the figures wrong sorry. Its 2.73% of 2yrs and 3.55% for 5 yrs so not as big a difference as i thought.

Then the answer is a shade under 1.4%. Personally I'd take the 2 years.
 
Thank you i was thinking 2 years. The might start to creep up in the next few years but i personally don't think it will be by that much.
 
b****r. It's 2.5%.

That assumes

1. Interest only and all payments made on time
2. No capital repayments
3. Rate rises during the first 2 years and then not again (i.e. worst case scenario)
4. NO FEES for either product (or the same fees) and really watch out for those because they make all the difference.
5. That you don't do anything with the money you save in years 1 and 2 - you should be able to stick it somewhere and get a little interest or overpay and reduce the capital
6. That you really meant 5 years not 4 ;)

mortgage%20rate.jpg
That's both over 5 years, but he asked for 4 years
 
1.64% it would need to rise for you to pay the same over 4 years.

3.55 X 4 = 14.2
2,73 X 2 = 5.46
14.2 - 5.46 = 8.74
8.74 / 2 = 4.37
4.37 - 2.73 = 1.64%
 
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Seen on the news recently about refocusing kids on the times tables as number literacy has fallen over the years. I was amazed how many people got a simple multiplication wrong
I done everything except pay attention at school and got them all right surprisingly so Lord knows what they're teaching at the moment
Maths fries my brain a bit and I go blank. Never understood how my mental arithmetic is strong but maths hurts my head
 
I know what you mean about the standards of numeracy. My old job as a croupier demanded a very high standard of mental arithmetic to work out the payouts for bets so I was rather surprised when one of the trainees couldn't even subtract 10 from 100 without a calculator.
When I trained, many years ago, we had to know our 5x, 8x, 11x, 17x, and 35x tables off by heart up to 20. These are the roulette odds for bets, btw, and then had to be added together to get the final payout which also depended on the value of gaming chips being paid.

I'm not sure the multiplication tables are necessarily important to teach the kids but I do think the Dutch have a good idea for teaching mental arithmetic by letting them play darts in school. (Makes maths fun.)
 
I'd take the 5 year. It's not all about absolute cost. Under new mortgage affordability rules they stress test new mortgages to a stupid degree so unless they've done that as well you may not even qualify for the lower rate. Is it a proper full offer after checking your full circumstances? 5 year fixes from what I remember aren't stress tested in the same way. Plus add in any fees. You don't know what fees the other 2 year one and the one after that as you are going to have to re-mortgage twice to reach 5 years or end up on a possibly swingeing SVR...A new product may need a revaluation fee, surveyor's fees. What if house prices fall where you are? What if your income drops just at the wrong time for either of the re-mortgages? I'd also bet the next 2 year fix will be close to the 5 year one if rates do increase.
 
Thanks for the calculations people. while i was away i've been doing my own calculations. I calculated it on a loan calculator that would only let me do 3.5 and 2.7%. but by my calculations it was more like 2% but i probably done something wrong.

£133k for 2 yrs at 2.7% = £3762 interest and £126,450 left on the mortgage which calculated over another 2 yrs at 4.5% would give you a total interest spend over 4 yrs £9555 With £121k outstanding.

£133k over 4yrs at 3.5% = £9564 in interested and £120,989 outstanding.
 
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I'd take the 5 year. It's not all about absolute cost. Under new mortgage affordability rules they stress test new mortgages to a stupid degree so unless they've done that as well you may not even qualify for the lower rate. Is it a proper full offer after checking your full circumstances? 5 year fixes from what I remember aren't stress tested in the same way. Plus add in any fees. You don't know what fees the other 2 year one and the one after that as you are going to have to re-mortgage twice to reach 5 years or end up on a possibly swingeing SVR...A new product may need a revaluation fee, surveyor's fees. What if house prices fall where you are? What if your income drops just at the wrong time for either of the re-mortgages? I'd also bet the next 2 year fix will be close to the 5 year one if rates do increase.
Thank you, yes i'm aware of the new strict rules and i probably would not pass. The figures i've give are deals my current provider as offered and from what i've read you do not need to do another credit check if you keep with the same lender. The 2 offers i mentioned both have no fees they offered 2 more with fees but i didn't want to confuse things further :)
 
Thanks for the calculations people. while i was away i've been doing my own calculations. I calculated it on a loan calculator that would only let me do 3.5 and 2.7%. but by my calculations it was more like 2% but i probably done something wrong.

£133k for 2 yrs at 2.7% = £3762 interest and £126,450 left on the mortgage which calculated over another 2 yrs at 4.5% would give you a total interest spend over 4 yrs £9555 With £121k outstanding.

£133k over 4yrs at 3.5% = £9564 in interested and £120,989 outstanding.
My calculations were based on interest only as I didn't know the full mortgage amount.
 
I'd take the 5 year. It's not all about absolute cost. Under new mortgage affordability rules they stress test new mortgages to a stupid degree so unless they've done that as well you may not even qualify for the lower rate. Is it a proper full offer after checking your full circumstances? 5 year fixes from what I remember aren't stress tested in the same way. Plus add in any fees. You don't know what fees the other 2 year one and the one after that as you are going to have to re-mortgage twice to reach 5 years or end up on a possibly swingeing SVR...A new product may need a revaluation fee, surveyor's fees. What if house prices fall where you are? What if your income drops just at the wrong time for either of the re-mortgages? I'd also bet the next 2 year fix will be close to the 5 year one if rates do increase.

Agree totally with this, also remember your current lender might not even be lending at the end of 2 years and youd go automatically on to SVR, you'd also then have the fees to find if you changed lender and would have to run the lottery of re-approval. 5 year fix and forget unless of course you're planning to move in that period.
 
My calculations were based on interest only as I didn't know the full mortgage amount.

Me too. Also, term ;)

It's a far more complex calculation on a repayment - not the actual sums, the weighing up of which to take. For example, you might be allowed to take the lower rate but overpay as though you were on the higher rate. Small extra payments early on in a repayment mortgage can make a significant difference over the life of it.
 
No they don't make it easy for you do they. Another thing i haven't considered is i would have moved from 80% LTV to 75% LTV bracket in 2 years which decrease your interest further.
 
Thank you, yes i'm aware of the new strict rules and i probably would not pass. The figures i've give are deals my current provider as offered and from what i've read you do not need to do another credit check if you keep with the same lender. The 2 offers i mentioned both have no fees they offered 2 more with fees but i didn't want to confuse things further :)
Even staying with your current provider they will still take you through the affordability criteria - I've been there, and wearing the selfemployed t-shirt...

Interest only and capital repayment, as well as annual or daily interest all make a difference to the calculation.

I prefer fix and forget (currently on a ten year fixed), whether you move or not usually doesn't make a difference - you usually get the choice of taking the deal with you or ending it.
 
from what i've read you do not need to do another credit check if you keep with the same lender.

Where did you read that? As far as I was aware even when you're at the provider already to change package involves a new application and the full suite of checks.
 
I'm good at maths. But you haven't provided enough information to allow the comparison to be made properly.
What is the term of the mortgage? 25 years?
Is it a repayment mortgage or an interest-only mortgage?
 
Even staying with your current provider they will still take you through the affordability criteria - I've been there, and wearing the selfemployed t-shirt...

Interest only and capital repayment, as well as annual or daily interest all make a difference to the calculation.

I prefer fix and forget (currently on a ten year fixed), whether you move or not usually doesn't make a difference - you usually get the choice of taking the deal with you or ending it.

Where did you read that? As far as I was aware even when you're at the provider already to change package involves a new application and the full suite of checks.

I read it on thisismoney.co.uk

Quote:
If your household income has fallen or if you’ve recently gone from being employed to self-employed then you may not qualify for a new loan with a different bank or building society. But as long as you’ve got a good payment history your existing lender won’t do any credit checks when it offers you an alternative deal.

They have offered my alternative deals online so i was hoping i would be fine, but now you have me worried. What if you fail do you just stay on your current deal?
 
I'm good at maths. But you haven't provided enough information to allow the comparison to be made properly.
What is the term of the mortgage? 25 years?
Is it a repayment mortgage or an interest-only mortgage?
Repayment 28 years left.
 
Where did you read that? As far as I was aware even when you're at the provider already to change package involves a new application and the full suite of checks.
It doesn't, as long as you're not borrowing more or extending the term etc and your payment history is OK.
Existing lender can move you straight onto a new deal.
 
I read it on thisismoney.co.uk

Quote:
If your household income has fallen or if you’ve recently gone from being employed to self-employed then you may not qualify for a new loan with a different bank or building society. But as long as you’ve got a good payment history your existing lender won’t do any credit checks when it offers you an alternative deal.

They have offered my alternative deals online so i was hoping i would be fine, but now you have me worried. What if you fail do you just stay on your current deal?
I'm sure it will be fine.
Why don't you give then a quick call to put your mind at rest
 
You never guess what just got posted through my door. A letter from NatWest saying stay with us and no credit checks.
 
You never guess what just got posted through my door. A letter from NatWest saying stay with us and no credit checks.
I'm with Nationwide and our current deal is finishing, and they've offered us new deals without fees and no further checks required as long as we don't borrow more, or change the term etc.
 
If your household income has fallen or if you’ve recently gone from being employed to self-employed then you may not qualify for a new loan with a different bank or building society. But as long as you’ve got a good payment history your existing lender won’t do any credit checks when it offers you an alternative deal.
They are legally obliged to do the affordability test when you take out a new mortgage product even if you're with the same lender. The only way to avoid it is to stay on the SVR. This is not a credit check.

They will ask about income and expenditure, based on my own experience my guess is that there's a calculation model behind the scenes that sanity checks the figures to make sure you have a realistic income to live on after repayments. If your extended mortgage term (28 years) extends into retirement they will check you have a pension arrangement to cover payments.

The tighter your household finances the more evidence they may ask for.

I read it on thisismoney.co.uk

Quote:
If your household income has fallen or if you’ve recently gone from being employed to self-employed then you may not qualify for a new loan with a different bank or building society. But as long as you’ve got a good payment history your existing lender won’t do any credit checks when it offers you an alternative deal.

Try looking at something more up-to-date, that's from September 2013 and the rule change was after that (26 April 2014).

See http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/apr/12/need-mortgage-new-rules-lenders-check
 
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annual or daily interest
Does anyone still do annual interest on mortgages? I took out my first 20 years ago, to the month, and that was calculated monthly, the next one four years later was daily.
 
They are legally obliged to do the affordability test when you take out a new mortgage product even if you're with the same lender. The only way to avoid it is to stay on the SVR. This is not a credit check.

They will ask about income and expenditure, based on my own experience my guess is that there's a calculation model behind the scenes that sanity checks the figures to make sure you have a realistic income to live on after repayments. If your extended mortgage term (28 years) extends into retirement they will check you have a pension arrangement to cover payments.

The tighter your household finances the more evidence they may ask for.



Try looking at something more up-to-date, that's from September 2013 and the rule change was after that (26 April 2014).

See http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/apr/12/need-mortgage-new-rules-lenders-check
That article talks about new applications, not changing deals with existing lenders.
The guidelines for existing customers can be different, as long as term, loan amount etc are not changing.
All my lender was interested in was the LTV so they could decide which offers I could get.
Maybe I've just been lucky, or it's because my mortgage is not that big.
 
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The guidelines for existing customers can be different, as long as term, loan amount etc are not changing.
Same lender, same amount, same term*.. but we were still taken through the affordability checks. Although no proof was requested - perhaps because the LTV was was c.50% and the loan value vs. income ratio was low. They are obliged to ask the questions, maybe you just didn't notice as it's all rather matter of fact if the initial answers suggest a low risk of default. I believe that if you request an interest only mortgage the check gets a lot more detailed.

* on paper it's the same term, but with a regular voluntary overpayment we're paying off 14 months every year. That makes a huge difference to the calculations over the full term.
 
OK, I've crunched some numbers. For both scenarios I've assumed that;
  1. the loan is for £133,000 over 28 years on a repayment basis;
  2. after the initial discounted rate ends, it reverts to a standard rate of 4.50%;
  3. the monthly repayments are calculated to be the same throughout the term.
Assumption 3 may not necessarily be sound. I don't know how banks and building societies actually calculate monthly repayments. I've done it as if they knew in advance that you'd be switching to 4.50% at the end of the introductory period, and wanted to ensure that your payments didn't change. In practice, if they did it like that, then they'd have to recalculate your payments if the standard rate turned out to be something other than 4.50% by the time you were switched onto it; but then they'd have to recalculate your repayments every time the standard variable rate changed anyway. So that sounds pretty sensible to me, but remember I said I'm good at maths, not necessarily good at banking.

Scenario 1.
£133,000 over 28 years. First 2 years at 2.70% and then switching to 4.50%.
Monthly repayment = £668, total interest paid = £91,337, total repaid = £224,337.
After 5 years you have paid £40,060 and the outstanding balance is £115,672.

Scenario 2.
£133,000 over 28 years. First 5 years at 3.50% and then switching to 4.50%.
Monthly repayment = £662, total interest paid = £89,424, total repaid = £222,424.
After 5 years you have paid £39,719 and the outstanding balance is £114,685.

There's really not very much in it at all.

But the calculations are moderately sensitive to the interest rate which applies at the end of the fixed rate deal. For example, if it were 6.00% then it would tilt the odds very much in favour of the 5-year fix, because the longer you could delay having to pay 6.00% the better. In this scenario, 5-year fix would save you £30 per month, and £10,000 over the duration of the loan.

I've saved the spreadsheet so I can re-run it with any alternative assumptions you'd care to test.
 
Assumption 3 may not necessarily be sound. I don't know how banks and building societies actually calculate monthly repayments
Even on a fixed rate the monthly repayment is periodically recalculated. From memory the repayment drops a small amount each year to take into account the reduced outstanding balance and the remaining term.
 
OK, I've crunched some numbers. For both scenarios I've assumed that;
  1. the loan is for £133,000 over 28 years on a repayment basis;
  2. after the initial discounted rate ends, it reverts to a standard rate of 4.50%;
  3. the monthly repayments are calculated to be the same throughout the term.
Assumption 3 may not necessarily be sound. I don't know how banks and building societies actually calculate monthly repayments. I've done it as if they knew in advance that you'd be switching to 4.50% at the end of the introductory period, and wanted to ensure that your payments didn't change. In practice, if they did it like that, then they'd have to recalculate your payments if the standard rate turned out to be something other than 4.50% by the time you were switched onto it; but then they'd have to recalculate your repayments every time the standard variable rate changed anyway. So that sounds pretty sensible to me, but remember I said I'm good at maths, not necessarily good at banking.

Scenario 1.
£133,000 over 28 years. First 2 years at 2.70% and then switching to 4.50%.
Monthly repayment = £668, total interest paid = £91,337, total repaid = £224,337.
After 5 years you have paid £40,060 and the outstanding balance is £115,672.

Scenario 2.
£133,000 over 28 years. First 5 years at 3.50% and then switching to 4.50%.
Monthly repayment = £662, total interest paid = £89,424, total repaid = £222,424.
After 5 years you have paid £39,719 and the outstanding balance is £114,685.

There's really not very much in it at all.

But the calculations are moderately sensitive to the interest rate which applies at the end of the fixed rate deal. For example, if it were 6.00% then it would tilt the odds very much in favour of the 5-year fix, because the longer you could delay having to pay 6.00% the better. In this scenario, 5-year fix would save you £30 per month, and £10,000 over the duration of the loan.

I've saved the spreadsheet so I can re-run it with any alternative assumptions you'd care to test.
Great answer, but doesn't answer the original question.:p
 
Same lender, same amount, same term*.. but we were still taken through the affordability checks. Although no proof was requested - perhaps because the LTV was was c.50% and the loan value vs. income ratio was low. They are obliged to ask the questions, maybe you just didn't notice as it's all rather matter of fact if the initial answers suggest a low risk of default. I believe that if you request an interest only mortgage the check gets a lot more detailed.

* on paper it's the same term, but with a regular voluntary overpayment we're paying off 14 months every year. That makes a huge difference to the calculations over the full term.
My letter says no credit, affordability or salary checks. :woot:
 
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I don't know how banks and building societies actually calculate monthly repayments. I've done it as if they knew in advance that you'd be switching to 4.50% at the end of the introductory period, and wanted to ensure that your payments didn't change. In practice, if they did it like that, then they'd have to recalculate your payments if the standard rate turned out to be something other than 4.50% by the time you were switched onto it; but then they'd have to recalculate your repayments every time the standard variable rate changed anyway

They do it the other way ;) They assume the interest rate will stay the same for the whole life of the mortgage even though they know it won't. Then they recalculate repayments every time the rate changes and often annually as well (in case there's a small drift).

The other thing to bear in mind is that typically at the end of a fixed rate they will offer you a chance to swap to a new product. Although they are very happy for you to revert to SVR they do offer various products. Usually these aren't the same as the ones available to new loans (because too easy) so if rates unexpectedly stay low, a short fix could be advantageous because you could buy a new fixed rate.
 
I guess they must be still using the transitional arrangements (not all lenders are), but don't dawdle these run out on 21 March.

http://www.cml.org.uk/policy/policy-updates/all/european-mortgage-credit-directive/
Thank you for the heads up. I've been doing a little digging and the transitional arrangement is for remortgages who are changing lenders also. I can not find any information on rules regarding the staying with the same lender. I will do more digging as if this is the case i will 100% go with a 5 year fixed.

Money saving expert says staying with the same lender then affordability criteria needn’t be applied.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/mortgages/2015/04/mortgages-warning-EU
 
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