Who would be a Junior Doctor

[boyfalldown]

They wouldn't have a training contract, but private hospitals have the equivalent to trust grade doctors. Is more about jobs there than careers.

Err comments about wages in other sectors

Nonsense comparison then. I want a 17 year old squaddie looking after me when I've been admitted to hospital on a Saturday night. Oh Wait...

Do they? Maybe you'd link a vacancy? It's rubbish.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Just saying that is meaningless. It's the sort of rubbish we re feed as part of the race to the bottom.

It doesn't compare like with like. If you took a school ( for example) then of course the public workers earn more. The teachers are public employees and will earn more then the cleaners (who will be private) cause the job has been outsourced to a private company like serco

If you consider comparable jobs, is a private teacher, a doctor working for a pharma etc the the private sector pays much more

Comparible jobs in my area, public sector pays more. I'd earn more managing a team of developers in the public sector locally than I currently earn in the private sector.

 

[boyfalldown]

Comparible jobs in my area, public sector pays more. I'd earn more managing a team of developers in the public sector locally than I currently earn in the private sector.

A wedding photographer you mean? Do they have those publicly

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

A wedding photographer you mean? Do they have those publicly

I think my post clearly said what my day job is

 

[big soft moose]

I can only conclude they've never needed them

Put it this way back in september my mother had a seizure and was rushed into hospital on a friday night - the nurses were great and the triage nurse had her admitted straight away to the A&E obs ward ... then she waited... and waited.. and waited some more... eventually my wife made it to the hospital and made a fuss at which point a doctor put in a brief appearance and said "well she'll need some scans , nothing much we can do til the morning" then vanished

so they moved her from the obs ward to a general ward , where again the nurses were great - the doctors were non existent. I got there on saturday morning and asked for an update... oh sorry said the nurse only the doctors can give medical updates... fine i said when will the doctor be round... oh they don't work weekends unless its an emergency

so there we sat for 48 hours while jacks*** happened - on the monday a doctor put in an appearance. said 'oh she'll need some scans before we know anything' (yes we know that you told us that 48 hours ago but she still hasnt had them)

On the tuesday I lost my temper and demanded to see a doctor - oh sorry, but they arent available unless its an emergency until he does rounds at 4 ,so i sat there until finally a doctor put in an appearance "oh we won't know anything until we get the scan results"

On the wednesday they told us it might be a viral infection of the brain, but equally might not be ( A nurse in A&E had told us that on friday night)

On the thursday they said that a consultant would need to take a view and would be coming that afternoon ... he didnt turn up

on the friday the same thing

over the weekend - oh sorry the doctors don't work the weekends

on the monday the consultant finally tore himself away from his round of golf long enough to tell us he didnt know what was wrong with her and we'd have to wait and see if it reoccured.

on the tuesday they discharged her with the everso helpful advice to come back if it reoccurs (and not to drive for 6 months in the mean time)

So yeah Ive needed them - but junior doctors were conspicuous by their absence and the consultants were working bankers hours... so its because of their performance when we needed them that I don't rate them as these wonderous beings that the govt is treating everso badly.

 

[big soft moose]

What on earth have the forces got to do with a junior doctor contract?
?

that came up because i was listing people in the public sector who's starting pay is less than doctors

 

[boyfalldown]

that came up because i was listing people in the public sector who's starting pay is less than doctors

True, but starting from school at 16/17 you'd be hard pressed to find many jobs that require a degree that start on less then a squaddie

 

[viv1969]

Before people are Dr's they are students, why would they get a wage?

Err...exactly.
And BTW a lot of students work too.

 

[boyfalldown]

Put it this way back in september my mother had a seizure and was rushed into hospital on a friday night - the nurses were great and the triage nurse had her admitted straight away to the A&E obs ward ... then she waited... and waited.. and waited some more... eventually my wife made it to the hospital and made a fuss at which point a doctor put in a brief appearance and said "well she'll need some scans , nothing much we can do til the morning" then vanished

so they moved her from the obs ward to a general ward , where again the nurses were great - the doctors were non existent. I got there on saturday morning and asked for an update... oh sorry said the nurse only the doctors can give medical updates... fine i said when will the doctor be round... oh they don't work weekends unless its an emergency

so there we sat for 48 hours while jacks*** happened - on the monday a doctor put in an appearance. said 'oh she'll need some scans before we know anything' (yes we know that you told us that 48 hours ago but she still hasnt had them)

On the tuesday I lost my temper and demanded to see a doctor - oh sorry, but they arent available unless its an emergency until he does rounds at 4 ,so i sat there until finally a doctor put in an appearance "oh we won't know anything until we get the scan results"

On the wednesday they told us it might be a viral infection of the brain, but equally might not be ( A nurse in A&E had told us that on friday night)

On the thursday they said that a consultant would need to take a view and would be coming that afternoon ... he didnt turn up

on the friday the same thing

over the weekend - oh sorry the doctors don't work the weekends

on the monday the consultant finally tore himself away from his round of golf long enough to tell us he didnt know what was wrong with her and we'd have to wait and see if it reoccured.

on the tuesday they discharged her with the everso helpful advice to come back if it reoccurs (and not to drive for 6 months in the mean time)

So yeah Ive needed them - but junior doctors were conspicuous by their absence and the consultants were working bankers hours... so its because of their performance when we needed them that I don't rate them as these wonderous beings that the govt is treating everso badly.

I'm sorry to hear about your Mum.

But `I will be honest, that sounds very far removed from my experiences with both myself, and family members of the NHS in various parts of the country. I'm not saying its perfect by any means but that sounds like a horror

 

[big soft moose]

the new entrants salary for forces is a bit of a red herring admittedly , but even officers arent earning a vast ammount more - a new lieutenant starts on about 25 , and that does require a degree and post graduate training (and a degree of inteligence)

 

[boyfalldown]

I think my post clearly said what my day job is

I did get that.

 

[viv1969]

On the otherhand Doctors can be on mid thirties in relatively short order after starting with an average pay of 37k, wheras the only way for a soldier to get to that level of pay is to be significantly promoted (W02s get about that) also the inherent occupational risk to a soldier is considerably worse

also the idea that the army totally picks up their living costs is a fallacy (unless they are on operations of course) - soldier pay rent often for accomodation that would have the average civillian running for the environmental health or similar

Where did I say their living costs were picked up by anyone???
They are, however, massively subsidised
The information is freely available.
Go on ..you know you want to.

 

[omens]

I had understood that if there was an emergency, or something went wrong in private hospitals they'd refer back to the NHS.

One of the biggest problems imo is the NHS carrying fall out from private work. IMO the private sector should deal with complications rather than referring back to the NHS.

All I can take from this non of you work in the medical field and not many in the forces.

Junior doctors do work in the private sector

Never knew there were junior docs in the private sector. Had to google loads to find anything relevant.

Put it this way back in september my mother had a seizure and was rushed into hospital on a friday night....

Really sorry to hear about your mother but it shouldn't have happened like that.
What should have happened is: mother turns up to A&E - gets seen and triaged (by a nurse or doctor), gets assessed and investigations arranged. If your mother was admitted, she should have been seen by the consultant within 24 hours of admission. I'd have thought she would have had an urgent scan to exclude an intracranial bleed. But what you've pointed out is that a lot of routine scans don't happen on a weekend. Doctors have very little to do with this - you need radiographers and equipment for regular scans.

The consultant would have done a ward round once or twice weekly depending on the unit but certainly a more "senior" junior doc should have been able to given some better information.

Please tell me you put in a complaint.

 

[big soft moose]

Where did I say their living costs were picked up by anyone???
They are, however, massively subsidised
The information is freely available.
Go on ..you know you want to.

Ive got friends in the forces so i don't need to - its not massively subsided when your married quarter is a single skin nissen hut lacking any kind of insulation that costs a fortune to heat in the winter and is baking hot in the summer. In short if your quarters would be unrentable in the civilian sector then having them provided for a few hundred a month is not a bargain

Equally if you're a single soldier and live on the block , your room and basic standards of privacy will be about like a substandard student halls of residence, with s***ty cheap furniture and paper thin walls... again comparable civillian housing would be virtually unrentable except as a DSS homeless hostel, so again its not exactly bargainous

this is why so many soldiers choose to live off base , despite many landlords being reluctant to rent to millitary and charging them a higher rent than they would a civillian.

If you are basing your views on the sanitised version that the MOD like to present to the world of search engines then its understanable that you might think otherwise , but the reality is very different

 

[boyfalldown]

One of the biggest problems imo is the NHS carrying fall out from private work. IMO the private sector should deal with complications rather than referring back to the NHS.

I think you may have a point. However I wouldn't wish the NHS to withhold potentially life saving or life changing intervention just because a patient has been private when the complications occurred

 

[big soft moose]

Please tell me you put in a complaint.

I put in a complaint - so far i've heard jacks*** so i suspect it got circular filed

I do have to say that i can't fault the nursing staff who appeared to be dedicated hardworking proffesionals doing the best they can in difficult circumstances

 

[omens]

I put in a complaint - so far i've heard jacks*** so i suspect it got circular filed

I do have to say that i can't fault the nursing staff who appeared to be dedicated hardworking proffesionals doing the best they can in difficult circumstances

Put another one in. Did you go through PALS?

 

[big soft moose]

nope I wrote to the cheif exec of the trust as it directs complainants to do on their website

tbh though i'm not sure how much more i want to pursue it as surely its just wasting nhs resources which could be better spent on other things - like paitent care... end of the day the CEO probably knows his hospital is stretched and some of his doctors are a shower of s***

 

[viv1969]

The salient point is that they only pay real world living expenses if they choose to live off base.
My nephew joined the Army at 16. Lived on base for his entire time in (barring a posting for cold climate training in Canada, one in Germany and 2 stints in Afghanistan).
He made the most of what it was, squirrelled away his money over the course of his army career (getting married along the way), and when he left to go build aeroplanes he was enabled to walk right into the property ladder a few rungs up from the bottom.

Now there's a lad I'm insanely proud of

Perhaps if squaddies are going to get precious about the facilities provided, then a career in the armed forces might not be for them.

 

[POAH]

Err...exactly.
And BTW a lot of students work too.

I didn't get paid as a student, kinda meaningless comment to say before they were doctors!

 

[big soft moose]

The salient point is that they only pay real world living expenses if they choose to live off base..

yeah they can choose to live like a dog and save cash if they prefer though its worth noting that the govt raised forces rents in 2014 citing that they need to be at a 'more realistic level' for reasons of austerity so the picture isnt as rosy now as it used to be. ( I'd also note that expecting your child's room not to grow mould on three of the four walls isn't exactly being precious )

rather like junior doctors living expenses are only high if they chose to spend money on them - yes if you try to rent a house in a lot of areas 22k isnt going to cut it, but three doctors renting together can easily afford a 3 bedroom house in most areas (or equally a doctor with no friends can easily affiord a house share or a rent a room scheme)

 

[andyscott]

The reasons for the NHS being poor is mainly due to
1. It is not doing what it was set out to do.
2. it is not funded to carry out what people expect.

It was designed to be free at the point of need, now people use it as free at the point of want.
Complaints are ridiculous, in our department, we have 4 full time members of staff to investigate them, most of which should be answered with, dont be stupid p*** off letter, but we cant.

Never ever was the NHS set out to do the following but we do numerous times a week. Little Johny runs into swing, cuts his head, no problems, comes to ED, no problems. Gets seen in a special room that has a lovely painting on the wall to the tune of 40K!!!!! He then has his wound assessed, no probs, but because its on his head and he "may" end up with a scar if stitched in the department, he must get admitted, have a general anaesthetic and a plastic surgeon suture it for him. This GA also risks the kids life, because the nil by mouth we asked for is ignored by mum, "because if he doesn't drink he kicks off". All of this now runs into the thousands which could have been a quick stitch in ED.

Long term Cancer and HIV treatments, hugely expensive. (worth it or not, that depends on your view and too emotional to discuss on here)

Breast enlargements, weight loss surgery etc etc. Is this really what the NHS was set up for.

People are fatter now, so we have to buy more expensive fat lifting kit. Bigger beds, bigger trolleys, chairs for fat people.
People turn up at A&E for the tiny things, not because GPs are closed, its stuff you would have just dealt with years ago, you would buy a plaster. The patients always say, why should I buy a dressing I get them free here. Same with headaches because "I shouldnt have to buy pain killers" "you should give me them"

No wonder there is no money to treat ill people.

 

[big soft moose]

Complaints are ridiculous, in our department, we have 4 full time members of staff to investigate them, most of which should be answered with, dont be stupid p*** off letter, but we cant.
.

Thats true of every walk of life i suspect - certainly dealing with fatous complaints sucks up a fair bit of my time ... life would be a lot easier allround if DBS,PO was an allowed response

and yes i agree with you on the rest of the content - Ive got a scar on my chin where I fell over in the street while drunk (whilst at uni) - IRRC the triage nurse at crewe A&E sufa'ld and butterflied it and sent me on my way in about 15 minutes without ever seing a doctor

 

[viv1969]

I didn't get paid as a student, kinda meaningless comment to say before they were doctors!

You'd have got paid if you'd worked

 

[big soft moose]

People turn up at A&E for the tiny things, not because GPs are closed, its stuff you would have just dealt with years ago, you would buy a plaster. The patients always say, why should I buy a dressing I get them free here. Same with headaches because "I shouldnt have to buy pain killers" "you should give me them"
.

wasting A&E time should be an offence, like fatuous 999 calling is ...

 

[viv1969]

yeah they can choose to live like a dog and save cash if they prefer though its worth noting that the govt raised forces rents in 2014 citing that they need to be at a 'more realistic level' for reasons of austerity so the picture isnt as rosy now as it used to be. ( I'd also note that expecting your child's room not to grow mould on three of the four walls isn't exactly being precious )

rather like junior doctors living expenses are only high if they chose to spend money on them - yes if you try to rent a house in a lot of areas 22k isnt going to cut it, but three doctors renting together can easily afford a 3 bedroom house in most areas (or equally a doctor with no friends can easily affiord a house share or a rent a room scheme)

Well as of April 2015 the weekly accommodation charges for a
furnished Army house ranges between £16.73 and £49.70.
Yes they have to pay utilities etc on top of that, but so does everyone else.
GBP 200 pm basic rent for a house... furnished or not.... is a steal.
He didn't live in squalor either.

 

[big soft moose]

GBP 200 pm basic rent for a house... furnished or not.... is a steal.
He didn't live in squalor either.

then he was lucky - a lot of quarters are distinctly not what any civilian would describe as habitable - it does vary dramatically from base to base - those at RMCTBL are actually quite nice from what ive seen, but there are a lot that aren't - my friend amy is married to a guy who's just been posted to the old bomber field at inverness ... thats an army posting despite being an RAF facility originally, and the choice of married quarters up there is basic to say the least "closer to a chicken shed than a house" were her exact words - needless to say that they are living off base.

oh and the 16 quid figure is for a room on the block, not a house

Anyway that aside - if you are on 14k starting and you get a benefit of say 400 per month (based on the fact that i'm paying 600 for my house - which is much nicer than any married quarter ive ever seen i might add) , then you are getting a benefit of £4800 so your total pay is actually £18,800 in real terms) - for which you also run the risk of dying or being maimed for your country

 

[viv1969]

then he was lucky - a lot of quarters are distinctly not what any civilian would describe as habitable - it does vary dramatically from base to base - those at RMCTBL are actually quite nice from what ive seen, but there are a lot that aren't - my friend amy is married to a guy who's just been posted to the old bomber field at inverness ... thats an army posting despite being an RAF facility originally, and the choice of married quarters up there is basic to say the least "closer to a chicken shed than a house" were her exact words - needless to say that they are living off base.

oh and the 16 quid figure is for a room on the block, not a house

Anyway that aside - if you are on 14k starting and you get a benefit of say 400 per month (based on the fact that i'm paying 600 for my house - which is much nicer than any married quarter ive ever seen i might add) , then you are getting a benefit of £4800 so your total pay is actually £18,800 in real terms) - for which you also run the risk of dying or being maimed for your country

The figure is not for a room:

Married Accompanied Soldiers. The weekly accommodation charges for a
furnished Army house range between £16.73 and £49.70. Married soldiers or those
with civil partners in service family accommodation are also responsible for their
own electricity and gas costs.

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/armypayscales

 

[andyscott]

Along with Army quarters is like living on base, its not freedom, its terrible and I was lucky enough to have both soldiers and officers quarters.
Its a benefit to which you are entitled, part of the package, same as not being at home for 6 xmas in a row, not seeing the birth of your kids etc etc

 

[andyscott]

Thats true of every walk of life i suspect - certainly dealing with fatous complaints sucks up a fair bit of my time ... life would be a lot easier allround if DBS,PO was an allowed response

Some complaints are totally justified and true. These are few and far between though.

Some are based around the decor!!!! or had to wait for 30mins in A&E because they had stubbed their toe and it was very sore!!
The trouble is we breed expectation by saying things like we are sorry your experience was inferior to that which you expected blah blah.

It should be what effing planet do you live on.

 

[POAH]

You'd have got paid if you'd worked

that's irrelevant to being a student.

 

[viv1969]

that's irrelevant to being a student.

It's not irrelevant to your financial situation whilst doing it.
No one gets paid for being a student.
Plenty get their arse in gear and get a job at the same time.

 

[big soft moose]

The figure is not for a room:

Married Accompanied Soldiers. The weekly accommodation charges for a
furnished Army house range between £16.73 and £49.70. Married soldiers or those
with civil partners in service family accommodation are also responsible for their
own electricity and gas costs.

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/armypayscales

that link is 404 not found and your info is out of date

the new housing rates for 15/16 are a cascade of 9 different levels pcm , with the rates expanding upwards depending on the type of accomodation provided and its condition, with grade 1 (the lowest) being "single living accomodation" ie in most cases a room, though there are some bedsits or tiny houses on some bases , grade 2 is the lowest charge for SFA but hardly anyone is on it

£298, £268, £238, £208, £179. £149, £119, £89, £59

on top of this those living in (ie not in SFA) have a daily food charge of £4.79 (which equates to £1748pa) , whilst those in SFA have a sewearge and water charge of between £409 and £438 per year , there are also seperate charges for furniture rental and garage rental

info from here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...46869_Cm_9025_Armed_Forces_Pay_accessible.pdf

As I mentioned i have a number of friends in the forces and i've never encountered anyone paying as little as £16.73p/w for a married quarter (SFA) , the lowest band in the old system was £79pcm but hardly anyone was on it

another telling quote from the same report is para 4.23

Personnel and families regularly express concerns to us about the quality of the properties they live in and the difficulty they have in getting maintenance problems sorted out quickly. They question whether it is reasonable that accommodation charges should increase at a higher rate than pay when they do not see an associated improvement in the quality and service they receive. They also express concern that there is a plan to reduce or even withdraw the subsidy they receive and move to “market rents”

Another issue is the ammount of housing available - this varies from base to base but in a number of places there is distinctly insufficient SFA available thus forcing many soldiers to live out if they want to cohabit .

 

[viv1969]

My info came from here.

http://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/Rates_of_pay_Soldier_2015.pdf

 

[big soft moose]

Along with Army quarters is like living on base, its not freedom, its terrible and I was lucky enough to have both soldiers and officers quarters.
Its a benefit to which you are entitled, part of the package, same as not being at home for 6 xmas in a row, not seeing the birth of your kids etc etc

not to mention the risk of getting your legs blown off , or how quickly your family will be moved out should you become a casualty - the claim that soldiers are 'not hard done by' on pay and conditions reveals a massive lack of understanding of what their conditions are really like

 

[big soft moose]

My info came from here.

http://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/Rates_of_pay_Soldier_2015.pdf

last years document - and as i said the difference between what the MOD say and what actually happens on the ground is quite steep, as i said above I have never encountered anyone paying that little for SFA , wheras the charge for SLA is about 15 quid pw

 

[viv1969]

How does a document from April 2015 predate one from March 2015?

 

[big soft moose]

because one relates to the situation this current year and the other to the situation looking forward in regard of the govts planned increase in charging

but whatever - I know you are obsessed with arguing with me about everything and we both know why, . however i'm not engaging this pathetic habit anymore as i no longer have the mental energy ... you might like to reflect on a certain irony about your constant harping about me and google, and where you are getting your information from on this subject - about which you patently have no real knowledged or experience

 

[viv1969]

because one relates to the situation this current year and the other to the situation looking forward in regard of the govts planned increase in charging

but whatever - I know you are obsessed with arguing with me about everything and we both know why, . however i'm not engaging this pathetic habit anymore as i no longer have the mental energy ... you might like to reflect on a certain irony about your constant harping about me and google, and where you are getting your information from on this subject - about which you patently have no real knowledged or experience

We were not talking about planned increases, we were talking about current costs.
But you are, of course, correct.....no one could compete with your extensive military (insert any given subject here) and Google know how.
Let's return to ignoring each others posts....far more satisfying.