Who would be a Junior Doctor

[Gaz J]

Oh they know of my opinion I give them their feedback

I'm sure that you must really make their day when they get the benefit of your wisdom.

that happens now - you walk into A&E and have a one to two hour wait to be seen , and thats by a nurse , then wait some more and so on... as i said the answer here is not more pay for doctors, its money to pay more doctors

I've never waited 2 hours to see anyone in A&E but I agree that more money for more doctors would be an excellent use of money.

 

[boyfalldown]

hing is its not just the govt who has created that rift - its also the union trying to paint people who are actually pretty well paid as 'poorly paid public servants' oh woe is me etc ... thats bound to p*** off people who earn less and work long hours etc themselves. - likewise why should doctors get anti social hours pay for working weekends, when many other jobs just have 'regular weekends will be required'

Or its the unions trying to stick up a little against the headlines a little....However, I sure you would agree that an unskilled worker doing the same hours as a skilled, responsible position probably can't expect the same salary

so how do all the people on NMW etc manage ?

They don't. You can't live on NMW as an only income round here (I know thats not everywhere).

 

[omens]

Except that anti social hours pay isnt being cut it in its entirity so that whole third won't be lost

Please explain. As far as I'm aware, it's being cut but for current trainees there will be a top up payment for a couple of years. Which given Jeremy Hunt's "promises" so far isn't a reality.

Not directly related, but as a "better places to save money than cutting pay":

A group of my friends have built a piece of software in conjunction with a Dr which would allow hospitals to find locum doctors without going through an agency, therefore avoiding the agency fees, which in theory would save the NHS a fortune over a year.

Or if the NHS properly funded places, they wouldn't need locums unless those times when someone's off sick. I worked in one department where a quarter of the doctors were locums. This came about because the recent changes in employment for international doctors working in the UK (they pulled their work permits), so international docs who would do stints in a non training post to gain experience and employment left the UK. This left holes in rotas across the UK.

that happens now - you walk into A&E and have a one to two hour wait to be seen , and thats by a nurse , then wait some more and so on... as i said the answer here is not more pay for doctors, its money to pay more doctors

As I stated, junior docs aren't asking for more money than they currently earn. Just not a reduction in pay and working conditions. If the Govt want more routine NHS care, they need to fund more staff. Not just doctors but nurses, healthcare assistants, porters, cleaners etc.

I wonder how long the poor sods who had appointments or surgeries cancelled today will have to wait for a new one.

If Jeremy Hunt had backed down or agreed to re-negotiate until waiting until the 11th hour, there wouldn't have been any cancellations.

 

[viv1969]

If Jeremy Hunt had backed down or agreed to re-negotiate until waiting until the 11th hour, there wouldn't have been any cancellations.

I'm sure that sounds wonderful to an elderly person in chronic pain who has waited eight months for their hip replacement, which is exactly the type of elective surgeries cancelled today, and now faces a similar wait once again.

The drs are the ones who voted for strike action. It is they who are wholly responsible for the cancellations.

 

[big soft moose]

Or its the unions trying to stick up a little against the headlines a little....However, I sure you would agree that an unskilled worker doing the same hours as a skilled, responsible position probably can't expect the same salary.

Indeed - but theres a lot of proffesional people earning the same or less - Nurses for a start , just as critical to the paitent care as the doctors , but lower paid with less room for progression and fewer options for top up

 

[andya700]

I am completely in favour of the doctors getting a better deal, because in my opinion the government are using emotional blackmail to try to get them to back down.
Maybe folks who criticise doctors, should really turn their attention to the politicians who have accepted a 10% pay rise for MP's - not cabinet ministers, ordinary MP's, and this is not including their house flipping, duckpond scamming expenses.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33552499

 

[omens]

The drs are the ones who voted for strike action. It is they who are wholly responsible for the cancellations.

You make it sound like the doctors just decided to do it for the fun of it. Remember, it was the last resort, not the first.

 

[big soft moose]

Please explain. s.

Sundays will still be considered antisocial hours

tbh I understand why the doctors arent happy at having their pay cut - but speaking as someone who works a lot of weekends for no extra pay, I'd say that the current arrangements as described here http://www.nhsemployers.org/your-wo...s-of-service-handbook/unsocial-hours-payments are overly generous.

 

[big soft moose]

I am completely in favour of the doctors getting a better deal, because in my opinion the government are using emotional blackmail to try to get them to back down.
Maybe folks who criticise doctors, should really turn their attention to the politicians who have accepted a 10% pay rise for MP's - not cabinet ministers, ordinary MP's, and this is not including their house flipping, duckpond scamming expenses.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33552499

That is also completely out of order - theres no question that a lot of MPs ought to be ashamed of themselves for taking that while preaching austerity

 

[big soft moose]

You make it sound like the doctors just decided to do it for the fun of it. Remember, it was the last resort, not the first.

They certainly didnt put the paitents first in making the decision...

 

[boyfalldown]

Indeed - but theres a lot of proffesional people earning the same or less - Nurses for a start , just as critical to the paitent care as the doctors , but lower paid with less room for progression and fewer options for top up

At the end of the day you came make that argument about so many professions being higher paid and worth less than others. It's kind of pointless.

People (or Hunt) seems content to proceed over a race to the bottom for skilled professions until the uk is just a nation of bankers

 

[viv1969]

You make it sound like the doctors just decided to do it for the fun of it. Remember, it was the last resort, not the first.

It was still wholly their decision, and no matter how you dance around it, the motivation is ultimately financial.
Strike action ALWAYS holds someone to ransom.
They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

 

[POAH]

Not surprised these chaps are looking to strike, qualified accountants earn more than tem.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs...d-and-why-are-they-threatening-to-strike.html

Starting Salary of 22k after 5/6 years in medical school, that's a joke.

pretty normal for someone with an undergraduate degree and given that they actually earn a lot more than that and get unsocable hour pay that most would only dream of. Don't have an issue with the changes that bring them more inline with the rest of the working people.

 

[davholla]

So it's their choice going in

and £22k at starting isnt a bad wage particularly given the potential for progression - nurses are on less, so are teachers,police are on only a little bit more, soldiers are on a lot less, and so forth

Soldiers don't have to spend 5 years at Uni (BTW I am not a doctor).

 

[Mr Bump]

If your skills are in short supply and people need your skills the pay will be good. Training to be a doctor is long and tough and hence the government needs to coff up.

 

[Mr Bump]

pretty normal for someone with an undergraduate degree and given that they actually earn a lot more than that and get unsocable hour pay that most would only dream of. Don't have an issue with the changes that bring them more inline with the rest of the working people.

Agreed but if it was down to your car might not get serviced for a few days or that massive festering wound will have to wait a few days then........

Quite frankly doctors are not normal working people, they are exceptional individuals.

much as a lot of people don't like to hear it there are classes of people in society that do more, learn more, commit more and they deserver to be well paid for their work.

if you don't want that there are other jobs and professions available.

 

[viv1969]

So it's their choice going in

and £22k at starting isnt a bad wage particularly given the potential for progression - nurses are on less, so are teachers,police are on only a little bit more, soldiers are on a lot less, and so forth

By the age of 22, having enlisted at 16 / 17 and with the continued professional development and training, a British soldier can be on that kind of money.
And their living costs are MASSIVELY less than that of a Dr. (or pretty much anyone else for that matter.)
Our forces are fantastic, but they're not hard done to.

 

[POAH]

Agreed but if it was down to your car might not get serviced for a few days or that massive festering wound will have to wait a few days then........

Quite frankly doctors are not normal working people, they are exceptional individuals.

much as a lot of people don't like to hear it there are classes of people in society that do more, learn more, commit more and they deserver to be well paid for their work.

if you don't want that there are other jobs and professions available.

doctors are normal people, they are no different to others. They will earn significantly more than a lot of other jobs that have had the same time in training. Doctors are not having their hours cut, all they are getting is a cut in the hours that are considered to be unsociable putting them more inline with the rest of us.

 

[big soft moose]

By the age of 22, having enlisted at 16 / 17 and with the continued professional development and training, a British soldier can be on that kind of money.
And their living costs are MASSIVELY less than that of a Dr. (or pretty much anyone else for that matter.)
Our forces are fantastic, but they're not hard done to.

sure but with continued proffesional development doctors arent on 22k either - that figure is the starting salary - and the starting salary for soldiers is circa 14k.

 

[big soft moose]

If your skills are in short supply and people need your skills the pay will be good. Training to be a doctor is long and tough and hence the government needs to coff up.

pay in the public sector is always crap compared to the comparable private sector , and they knew that going in... I'm not totally unsympathetic as some of what the govt is proposing is badly thought out, but the Drs arent helping themselves by the union trying to paint a woe is me picture

 

[big soft moose]

Soldiers don't have to spend 5 years at Uni (BTW I am not a doctor).

this is true - on the other hand doctors don't have the same inherent risk of getting maimed or killed in the line of duty

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

pay in the public sector is always crap compared to the comparable private sector , and they knew that going in...

That hasn't been true for years in most industries. The median public sector wage is above the private sector.

 

[viv1969]

sure but with continued proffesional development doctors arent on 22k either - that figure is the starting salary - and the starting salary for soldiers is circa 14k.

Those Drs, before they're Drs, (18 - 22 for instance) are on considerably less than that, with real world living expenses, and in all likelyhood, debt mounting.
Squaddies can be on that at 16, and not a great deal of that goes on essential living expenses....especially early on.

 

[Grey77]

Really? what opportunities were they then?

I believe it is well documented that Doctors got a good deal under New Labour.

As regards opportunity I mean opportunity to make more money with salary scales progressing as experience is gained and also opportunity to supplement income through promotion or by working in the private sector.

I don't think Junior Doctors should have their salaries cut I should be clear about that. My initial post was badly written.

 

[omens]

I am completely in favour of the doctors getting a better deal, because in my opinion the government are using emotional blackmail to try to get them to back down.
Maybe folks who criticise doctors, should really turn their attention to the politicians who have accepted a 10% pay rise for MP's - not cabinet ministers, ordinary MP's, and this is not including their house flipping, duckpond scamming expenses.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33552499

I am completely in favour of the doctors getting a better deal, because in my opinion the government are using emotional blackmail to try to get them to back down.
Maybe folks who criticise doctors, should really turn their attention to the politicians who have accepted a 10% pay rise for MP's - not cabinet ministers, ordinary MP's, and this is not including their house flipping, duckpond scamming expenses.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33552499

The docs don't want a "better deal", they don't want to rock the status quo. The Govt will always use blackmail (People will die(!)) to coerce but we shouldn't turn this into a race to the bottom.

They certainly didnt put the paitents first in making the decision...

As I said above, should they just be happy with whatever terms were imposed? If you were in their position, what would you do?

I believe it is well documented that Doctors got a good deal under New Labour.

As regards opportunity I mean opportunity to make more money with salary scales progressing as experience is gained and also opportunity to supplement income through promotion or by working in the private sector.

I don't think Junior Doctors should have their salaries cut I should be clear about that. My initial post was badly written.

Consultants might be able to work in the private sector. No junior doctor can. Surely just because someone might make more money later in life shouldn't mean that they should work for next to nothing?

 

[andya700]

They certainly didnt put the paitents first in making the decision...

Which is why I think that the government is using emotional blackmail to back them into a corner. The media can then have their go, trying to make the doctors out to be heartless and money grabbing, totally ignoring the fact that newscasters and big name journalists never save anyone's life and get paid far more than doctors.
This list of BBC staff and their salaries might raise a few eyebrows - but then I gues they are all worth it - unlike the doctors?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/corporate2/insidethebbc/managementstructure/biographies/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ite-14-big-presenters-pocketing-12m-them.html

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/bbc-pays-274-stars-six-figure-salary-6421100.html

 

[Grey77]

Consultants might be able to work in the private sector. No junior doctor can. Surely just because someone might make more money later in life shouldn't mean that they should work for next to nothing?

They shouldn't have to work for next to nothing, as I said they should not have pay cuts. But they shouldn't expect it all from day one either. How good is a doctor straight out of med school, they need to get some experience under their belt before they are fully worth a top salary.

 

[big soft moose]

Those Drs, before they're Drs, (18 - 22 for instance) are on considerably less than that, with real world living expenses, and in all likelyhood, debt mounting.
Squaddies can be on that at 16, and not a great deal of that goes on essential living expenses....especially early on.

On the otherhand Doctors can be on mid thirties in relatively short order after starting with an average pay of 37k, wheras the only way for a soldier to get to that level of pay is to be significantly promoted (W02s get about that) also the inherent occupational risk to a soldier is considerably worse

also the idea that the army totally picks up their living costs is a fallacy (unless they are on operations of course) - soldier pay rent often for accomodation that would have the average civillian running for the environmental health or similar

 

[big soft moose]

Consultants might be able to work in the private sector. No junior doctor can. Surely just because someone might make more money later in life shouldn't mean that they should work for next to nothing?

So private hospitals don't need any of the work junior doctors do ? - also I'm sure all the people working for the living wage or less will be delighted to hear that 22k plus is next to nothing (LW is circa 15k outside of london or about 18 in london)

 

[big soft moose]

.
As I said above, should they just be happy with whatever terms were imposed? If you were in their position, what would you do?

When my terms of employment were radically altered by the austerity cuts in 2010 (to the point that although we alledgedly had permanent contracts we didn't know if they'd be able to pay us month to month) I found another job outside the public sector .. what I didnt do is strike because in my view that isnt fair to service users or to the colleagues who have to pick up the pieces.

 

[omens]

They shouldn't have to work for next to nothing, as I said they should not have pay cuts. But they shouldn't expect it all from day one either. How good is a doctor straight out of med school, they need to get some experience under their belt before they are fully worth a top salary.

No doctor expects it all from day one, and no one gets anywhere near top salary. As I pointed out, they get basic + antisocial hours and this goes up with every tier/level. They train through and they may not always make the next tier depending on how good/bad they are.

So private hospitals don't need any of the work junior doctors do ? - also I'm sure all the people working for the living wage or less will be delighted to hear that 22k plus is next to nothing (LW is circa 15k outside of london or about 18 in london)

Private hospitals don't provide training. The majority don't deal with emergencies. The two close by to me are staffed basically by nurses who call the consultant if there's a problem.

 

[omens]

When my terms of employment were radically altered by the austerity cuts in 2010 (to the point that although we alledgedly had permanent contracts we didn't know if they'd be able to pay us month to month) I found another job outside the public sector .. what I didnt do is strike because in my view that isnt fair to service users or to the colleagues who have to pick up the pieces.

But you were able to go outside the public sector. How many junior docs can find work as doctors outside the NHS?

 

[boyfalldown]

That hasn't been true for years in most industries. The median public sector wage is above the private sector.

Just saying that is meaningless. It's the sort of rubbish we re feed as part of the race to the bottom.

It doesn't compare like with like. If you took a school ( for example) then of course the public workers earn more. The teachers are public employees and will earn more then the cleaners (who will be private) cause the job has been outsourced to a private company like serco

If you consider comparable jobs, is a private teacher, a doctor working for a pharma etc the the private sector pays much more

 

[big soft moose]

But you were able to go outside the public sector. How many junior docs can find work as doctors outside the NHS?

I didnt stay in the same occupation - theres not much call for rights of way officers outside of the public sector either

 

[Gaz J]

I'm sure that sounds wonderful to an elderly person in chronic pain who has waited eight months for their hip replacement, which is exactly the type of elective surgeries cancelled today, and now faces a similar wait once again.

The drs are the ones who voted for strike action. It is they who are wholly responsible for the cancellations.

Well if that person was me I would be quite happy to wait if it meant that the doctors weren't getting shafted by a government that doesn't give a toss about anyone except themselves. If you want people to show loyalty then show some to them. Do they get that from that idiot Hunt? No they do not. hunt himself admitted that some doctors would lose money. how can that be right?

 

[boyfalldown]

Private hospitals don't provide training. The majority don't deal with emergencies. The two close by to me are staffed basically by nurses who call the consultant if there's a problem.

I had understood that if there was an emergency, or something went wrong in private hospitals they'd refer back to the NHS.

My own consultant won't see private patients. She does however do an excellent job of keeping me walking and as a contributing member of society. I'm not about to begrudge one penny of every salary paid to any NHS doctor. I'm amazed people do. I can only conclude they've never needed them

 

[andyscott]

All I can take from this non of you work in the medical field and not many in the forces.

Junior doctors do work in the private sector

 

[boyfalldown]

All I can take from this non of you work in the medical field and not many in the forces.

Junior doctors do work in the private sector

What on earth have the forces got to do with a junior doctor contract?

And are they're many jobs in the private sector? What route would a junior doctor follow to work their instead of the Nhs?

 

[andyscott]

What on earth have the forces got to do with a junior doctor contract?

And are they're many jobs in the private sector? What route would a junior doctor follow to work their instead of the Nhs?

They wouldn't have a training contract, but private hospitals have the equivalent to trust grade doctors. Is more about jobs there than careers.

Err comments about wages in other sectors

 

[POAH]

Those Drs, before they're Drs, (18 - 22 for instance) are on considerably less than that, with real world living expenses, and in all likelyhood, debt mounting.
Squaddies can be on that at 16, and not a great deal of that goes on essential living expenses....especially early on.

Before people are Dr's they are students, why would they get a wage?