Whitby Abbey - Photography Of English Heritage Buildings

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glennk

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Glenn
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Hi Guys, I recently received an email regarding selling of some images I have of Whitby Abbey. I was quite shocked to learn that you need permission from English Heritage to sell any photographs you have taken of their buildings.

Has anyone on here any experience of this situation. Most importantly how to register for the correct permissions ? And Also how they apply.

Having thought about it, I can understand how they can prohibit sale of images taken on their property. However Im unsure if this applies to images taken from outside their property. The Abbey is visible from everywhere in the town. Im wondering if it can possibly be the case that you can't sell a photograph of Whitby Abbey taken from a public place.

Obviously this discussion could be helpful to a lot of pro photographers who may have some English Heritage shots in their portfolio.

Many thanks for taking the time to read, and I'm looking forward to your answers.

Best Regards - Glenn
 
Name: Redacted

Email: Redacted

Subject: Photography Permissions

Comments:

Please could you forward to me your Photography Permissions Form from English Heritage for my records as i cant seem to find a copy.

If you do not have permission to use images of Whitby Abbey for Commercial purposes, please contact me straight away to secure these permissions, and remove all images of Whitby Abbey until this has been done.

Kind Regards
Name and Position redacted.
 
I would doubt that you need permission to sell images that include Whitby Abbey and taken from off of EH land.
However if your photos are of the Abbey exclusively and/or taken from EH land it may well apply ... however, was your intention at the time to make the image(s) available commercially?
 
I'd think that's pretty standard commercial practice, you can't expect to make money selling images of someone else's property without their permission.

The same would be true of NT or any private owner of a similar property.
 
Phil V said:
I'd think that's pretty standard commercial practice, you can't expect to make money selling images of someone else's property without their permission.

The same would be true of NT or any private owner of a similar property.
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Would that also hold if the shots were taken from public property such as the road or footpath?
I can understand it if you are on their land.
 
mickledore said:
Would that also hold if the shots were taken from public property such as the road or footpath?
I can understand it if you are on their land.
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If the shots are primarily 'of' their property, then yes. If the shots are of a cityscape, or skyline featuring many buildings, then no.
 
From the English Heritage handbook
Non -commercial photography is welcome in the gardens and grounds of all our sites
I believe the NT is the same
 
My Question is about "Selling" so its that which I need some advice on. Are those saying it is illegal to sell images of someone else property, Talking from a position of expertise or just guess work ?? Any laws, information, links that would be useful and greatly appreciated if you can post them up for me. Do we know if anyone has ever been prosecuted for selling Images of English Heritage property taken from a Public place ??
 
troutfisher said:
From the English Heritage handbook
Non -commercial photography is welcome in the gardens and grounds of all our sites
I believe the NT is the same
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It is - however as soon as you sell a picture it becomes commercial photography (you'd have a hell's own time proving you didnt take it with the intent of selling it ) I don't know much about EH, but getting permission from the Trust is as easy as contacting them for a licence ... Harvey Edgington at the Queens Anne Gate office is a good first point of contact - explain what you want to do and for what end use , and Harvey will tell you what it will cost ( fees arent excessive, but they will be proportionate to the use you expect) , you'll also need PL insurance.

Both the Trust and EH have I believe confirmed that they don't consider non commercial publication of your work on the web (ie own website, facebook, forums like this) to require a licence
 
The W said:
The 'UK Photographers Right Guide' covers property.
http://www.sirimo.co.uk/2009/05/14/uk-photographers-rights-v2/
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Hi The W. Thankyou for your post. Having read that, the only thing I can find of relevance is :

"Private Property - Owners of property do not normally have the right to prevent someone from taking photographs of their property from a public place such as a public highway, (though see below for issues of national security). "

It does not mention sale of the images though.,
 
glennk said:
My Question is about "Selling" so its that which I need some advice on. Are those saying it is illegal to sell images of someone else property, Talking from a position of expertise or just guess work ?? Any laws, information, links that would be useful and greatly appreciated if you can post them up for me. Do we know if anyone has ever been prosecuted for selling Images of English Heritage property taken from a Public place ??
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Its not illegal under criminal law) , but the organisation concerned could sue if they saw you making a serious comercial gain from an image of their property - it would be up to the judge to rule on the reasonableness of the case, so if you are contemplating serious sales its not worth the risk .... if its trivial microstock stuiff personally i'd seriously doubt anyone would know or care
 
All taken from public areas.

Pier-Inn-Full-Size-1-of-1-13.jpg



My friends house in the foreground.


Whitby-Abbey-From-Khyber-Pass-For-Website-1-of-1.jpg


Whitby-Abbey-From-Hawsker-Lane-1-of-1.jpg



Taken from Public Footpath outside Abbey Grounds.

Whitby-Abbey-By-Glenn-Kilpatrick-1-of-1-2.jpg


Whitby-Abbey-From-Panett-Park-Website-Copy-1-of-1-3.jpg
 
Just been to take a look see at the OP's website and it seems to be clear, to me at least, that the images of the abbey were taken solely for great commercial gain and were not "accidental"
 
My understanding is there are no such rights that grant property owners exclusivity over their property, so photos from public land are fair game. The fact they can for photos taken on their land is a byproduct of trespass/contract law.
 
big soft moose said:
Its not illegal under criminal law) , but the organisation concerned could sue if they saw you making a serious comercial gain from an image of their property - it would be up to the judge to rule on the reasonableness of the case, so if you are contemplating serious sales its not worth the risk .... if its trivial microstock stuiff personally i'd seriously doubt anyone would know or care
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Yes, they know Moose. They sent me this message to say take them down.

Name: Redacted

Email: Redacted

Subject: Photography Permissions

Comments:

Please could you forward to me your Photography Permissions Form from English Heritage for my records as i cant seem to find a copy.

If you do not have permission to use images of Whitby Abbey for Commercial purposes, please contact me straight away to secure these permissions, and remove all images of Whitby Abbey until this has been done.

Kind Regards
Name and Position redacted.
​
 
Keith W said:
Just been to take a look see at the OP's website and it seems to be clear, to me at least, that the images of the abbey were taken solely for great commercial gain and were not "accidental"
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Hi Keith, yes I definitely took them to sell. There is no dispute of that. They are clearly on my website with a cart and prices attached.

With regards to "Great Commercial Gain" Ha, I wish :) Im struggling to keep a roof over my head.

My question is regarding the legality (Civil) of selling images taken from a public place. I can understand that images on their property must have their permission to be sold, and Im willing to ditch them or seek relevant permissions if financially viable.

But Im struggling to understand if / how they could stop the sale of images taken from Public areas. Whitby Abbey must be on images that have been bought and sold right across the world. What about all the postcards of the town, I bet no permission was in place for those.
 
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The W said:
My understanding is there are no such rights that grant property owners exclusivity over their property, so photos from public land are fair game. The fact they can for photos taken on their land is a byproduct of trespass/contract law.
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Thay can take photos, but is not selling photos different? Don't ask me, we need a legal boffin!
 
C'mon. Just get the permissions and press on.
 
Keith W said:
Just been to take a look see at the OP's website and it seems to be clear, to me at least, that the images of the abbey were taken solely for great commercial gain and were not "accidental"
Click to expand...

Agree ... with most being titled "Whitby Abbey ....." there can be little doubt that the abbey is the focal point of the image in most displayed and that they are specifically being offered for sale.
 
glennk said:
Hi Keith, yes I definitely took them to sell. There is no dispute of that. They are clearly on my website with a cart and prices attached.

My question is regarding the legality (Civil) of selling images taken from a public place. I can understand that images on their property must have their permission to be sold, and Im willing to ditch them or seek relevant permissions if financially viable.

But Im struggling to understand if / how they could stop the sale of images taken from Public areas.
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For starters you'll need to prove you were in a public place ... but do you really want to go to court with a large public body who can afford better lawyers than you can ?

Just contact them for the permissions - they'll want a small cut of the profit you made from selling the image, which is ethically fair enough as if it wasnt for their work thered have been nothing for you to photograph in the first place
 
mickledore said:
Thay can take photos, but is not selling photos different? Don't ask me, we need a legal boffin!
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I am not a lwwyer: but if the property owner has no rights, they can't be infringed by somebody selling a photo. Now if the photo was used in the wrong way, the property owner could perhaps try to argue for damage to reputation, passing off, etc, but simply selling a photograph is unlikely to meet the requirements for that.
 
I don't believe they have any right to stop you selling photos clearly taken from some distance away.
They don't have copyright of the Whitby Abbey name!
They are just trying it on at a quiet time of year I guess.
Where does this approach logically take us if the owner of a distinctive property can force you to pay a cut on any image where it happens to be somewhere in frame - completely unrealistic
 
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Actually I'd be tempted to contact the Whitby Gazette, they'd love to do a feature with pic of you with specially prepared sad face on :(
 
While I would not say that this article from the Digital Camera World website is definitive, it suggests that you are entitled to sell images of buildings taken from public property. The only way to be sure would be to contact an IP lawyer.
 
those saying about public place etc are right (currently though i read somewhere that the law was going to change) but as i said above can you prove definitively (to the standard of proof a court would require) that you were on public land when you took the image (it depends which of the above images we are talking about - for example the public footpath outside abbey grounds isnt necesarily public land ... do you know for definite that the abbey doesnt own the feild in question ?
 
4wd said:
Actually I'd be tempted to contact the Whitby Gazette, they'd love to do a feature with pic of you with specially prepared sad face on :(
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I already have ;-) They were my first port of call. Ive also spoken to English Heritage and told them Im willing to remove any from sale that were taken in their premises, and Ive asked them specifically for their rules on images taken from Public places. From there I will make my decision.

Im willing to work with English Heritage and don't want to pee them off but I also don't want them overstepping the mark either. Im happy to pay for a licence or whatever I need, or if its too expensive Im happy not to sell Images taken from inside their grounds. And if its against Civil Law to sell images taken from public places then Ill cease to do that also. But I do need to learn what the situation is before I just roll over.
 
glennk said:
. And if its against Civil Law to sell images taken from public places then Ill cease to do that also. But I do need to learn what the situation is before I just roll over.
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fundamental misunderstanding there - civil law is determined essentially in court (okay so theres precedent and tort but you know what i mean), so if EH decided to sue, which they could do regardless of whether you are right or not , it would be the judge that determined who was right, not statute (as it is in criminal law).

so far there hasnt been a precedent case to establish that / and in fact precedent by and large establishes the oposite - but theres always the potential to be the first
 
big soft moose said:
those saying about public place etc are right (currently though i read somewhere that the law was going to change) but as i said above can you prove definitively (to the standard of proof a court would require) that you were on public land when you took the image (it depends which of the above images we are talking about - for example the public footpath outside abbey grounds isnt necesarily public land ... do you know for definite that the abbey doesnt own the feild in question ?
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I know much of The Abbey Headland is owned by The Strickland estate, not English heritage. They may also own the footpath. I would have to check out ownership. Certainly those from the Park are from Public Land as the park was left to the people of the town.

I guess these are discussions to also have with English Heritage. Ive asked them for their stance on images taken from Public land, or land they don't own. My Friend Owns Abbey Farm and Ive taken some off his land, I also have friends who own the campsite up the road and Ive taken some from their too. So those are from private land but with Owners permission.
 
big soft moose said:
fundamental misunderstanding there - civil law is determined essentially in court (okay so theres precedent and tort but you know what i mean), so if EH decided to sue, which they could do regardless of whether you are right or not , it would be the judge that determined who was right, not statute (as it is in criminal law).

so far there hasnt been a precedent case to establish that / and in fact precedent by and large establishes the oposite - but theres always the potential to be the first
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Its going to be interesting.
 
As the complainant wouldn't they have to show it wasn't taken on public land?
 
glennk said:
Hi The W. Thankyou for your post. Having read that, the only thing I can find of relevance is :

"Private Property - Owners of property do not normally have the right to prevent someone from taking photographs of their property from a public place such as a public highway, (though see below for issues of national security). "

It does not mention sale of the images though.,
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But that 'guide' is just made up by someone with no more idea than you or I.

It's their property, if they're happy to go to court can you afford the battle?
 
Ill be sure to post up as it progresses. I would like to know how to get the correct permissions and Ill post info on that so that other people can read it and get the permissions if they want to.

Im still pretty concerned about their belief of their ownership of a view which can be seen from 10 yards outside their boundary wall and upto 8 miles away at least. I can fully understand them not granting permission from inside the Abbey grounds, but how can anyone own a view ?

As has been stated the rules seem to revolve around trespass. So Im not sur show that could apply from public land or land they don't own.

Just walking home tonight I note most shops have Abbey Photographs, postcards, cups, mugs etc which would be taken from outside. I assume they all don't have the EH Paperwork.
 
Hi Phil. Regarding the "Guide"

The guide was written by Linda Macpherson LL.B, Dip. L.P., LL.M is a freelance legal consultant specialising in Media Law and Intellectual Property Law. She is also a part-time law lecturer and has presented seminars on law for photographers.
 
My wife and her llb reckon they've no grounds to demand payment or anything. If it was take from a public place which it was and the building is in full view in normal circumstances ie you don't need a drone to see over a wall then they're trying it on.
 
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steveo_mcg said:
Wasn't this kind of situation part of that eu ruling that was shot down a few months ago?
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It was in this area. However (and I know it is not the UK), but you are not allowed to sell photographs of the Eiffel Tower where the lights are shown (ie night time shots) without permission, wherever they are taken from. While the Eiffel Tower is in the public domain, the lightshow is copyrighted. There is always the chance that EH could claim copyright of the lights on the Abbey (which are visible in some of the pictures). Just a thought.
 
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