Which Grey dealer for a D750?

StewartR said:
Re HDEW, Validhirst Ltd, and VAT registration:

HDEW's website says this:

View attachment 106147

which is all fine. The limited company is Validhirst Ltd, and the trading name is HDEW Cameras. Nothing wrong with that.

The VAT regulations (VAT Notice 700, paragraph 16.3.1) state that you must show the following details on any VAT invoice you issue: "your name, address and VAT registration number - you may issue invoices under a trading name, but your legal name and address details must still be shown somewhere on the document".

So it might be argued that Validhirst / HDEW are not compliant with this, in the same way that they are not compliant with the requirement to display their VAT number on their website. But let's not lose sight of the big picture here. The big picture is that they are - apparently - defrauding HMRC by not paying VAT on the sales they make.
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Stewart,
All that info is old or incomplete, Validhirst are trading as Seconds Out

i6cESYd.jpg
 
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admirable said:
All that info is old or incomplete, Validhirst are trading as Seconds Out
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So it's incomplete. Validhirst Ltd are trading as HDEW and also trading as Seconds Out. So what? No law against that.

Again, let's not lose sight of the big picture here. The big picture is that they are - apparently - defrauding HMRC by not paying VAT on the sales they make. Everything else that has been raised here is just admin.
 
StewartR said:
So it's incomplete. Validhirst Ltd are trading as HDEW and also trading as Seconds Out. So what? No law against that.
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Yes there is,
1/ Validhirst have not declared HDEW as a trading name.
2/ HDEW Cameras are issuing Vat invoices whilst not VAT registered.

I agree on the big picture but can we lose the 'So what' attitude?
 
IMHO the 'bigger picture' is not the trading details of one dealer, but the widespread illegal grey market and the avoidance of VAT and duty payments by dozens of internet sellers. That's a matter for HMRC, and the UK photo industry has been complaining to government about it for many years, and indeed decades. HMRC clearly doesn't think it's worth bothering about.
 
Retune said:
Are there any confirmed 'true grey' market operations in the UK, purely exploiting beneficial overseas wholesale prices while automatically paying the appropriate tax?
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As far as I'm aware there is only Microglobe who run a shop in London and are (or were) grey importers. I assume that as they have a physical presence they are behaving as you describe
 
boyfalldown said:
As far as I'm aware there is only Microglobe who run a shop in London and are (or were) grey importers. I assume that as they have a physical presence they are behaving as you describe
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Good point. I'd forgotten about Microglobe. Yes, as far as I can tell they are operating legally. Their prices are all over the place - some very good, better than the mainstream retailers, but also some which are rather expensive.
 
HoppyUK said:
The problem is still yours. Someone, somewhere along the line, has to pay VAT and import duty (if applicable). And you, as the importer, are responsible for that.
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I disagree. So I walk into HDEW's offices and buy a Nikon D750. Since when does that make me an importer? No matter what their T&C's of trading etc, that transaction does not make me an importer as their stock isn't bonded etc. I would always ask for a receipt for the warranty purposes. I made a fake call to Nikon UK today asking if they would repair my Nikon D750 which was bought abroad a I had dropped it. They said no problems but it would be chargeable.
 
A big "thank you" to all those who nominated their recommendations.

To save anybody trawling through the whole thread in the future, the final tally was:
Panamoz - 10
HDEW - 5
E-Infinity 2
Digital Rev 1

I ordered a D750 from Panamoz last night, and am just waiting for my tracking number.

And a big "boo" to those who dragged the thread well off topic.
 
the only on-topic response was microglobe.
 
HoppyUK said:
IMHO the 'bigger picture' is not the trading details of one dealer, but the widespread illegal grey market and the avoidance of VAT and duty payments by dozens of internet sellers. That's a matter for HMRC, and the UK photo industry has been complaining to government about it for many years, and indeed decades. HMRC clearly doesn't think it's worth bothering about.
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I suspect they turn a blind eye purely because these companies otherwise have no chance of competing with the big international corporation tax dodgers like Amazon.
 
Contax said:
A big "thank you" to all those who nominated their recommendations.

To save anybody trawling through the whole thread in the future, the final tally was:
Panamoz - 10
HDEW - 5
E-Infinity 2
Digital Rev 1

I ordered a D750 from Panamoz last night, and am just waiting for my tracking number.

And a big "boo" to those who dragged the thread well off topic.
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Congratulations. You'll be needing this:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/declarations-and-the-single-administrative-document
 
Contax said:
And you'll be needing this:

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/help/rulesdetailed/

specifically the rule which says:
  • It's not nice to see a discussion taken off on a tangent by one or two people having an almost private style conversation, so please leave that stuff to the chat room.
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It is not off topic when you ask for people to advice you which is the best way - i.e. the most reliable supplier - to break the law. I am afraid the law is above any rules the site has.
 
TLR-330 said:
It is not off topic when you ask for people to advice you which is the best way - i.e. the most reliable supplier - to break the law. I am afraid the law is above any rules the site has.
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Go and read my initial post again - I asked for specific recommendations among a specified list of suppliers.

If you want to discuss legality, morality, taxation or any other irrelevant topic, then please go and create your own thread to discuss it instead of crapping all over mine.
 
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Contax said:
And you'll be needing this:

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/help/rulesdetailed/

specifically the rule which says:
  • It's not nice to see a discussion taken off on a tangent by one or two people having an almost private style conversation, so please leave that stuff to the chat room.
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Why? How is helping you off topic? You've picked the supplier, and I've given you the rest of the information you need to complete your import legally?
 
Not that this applies to the OP as I'm sure VAT will be declared as required but I did click on the rules link by the way. Noticed the following:

Prohibited Content
The following content is prohibited on Talk Photography
  • Discussions pertaining to a particular instance of a crime.
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How are these threads allowed on TP. Is it because DR is a sponsor?
 
Furtim said:
Why? How is helping you off topic? You've picked the supplier, and I've given you the rest of the information you need to complete your import legally?
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Panamoz, a respected and successful supplier, state on their web site that "Price includes taxes and duties". How they do that is not my concern, any more than I would ask LCE, Wex or any of the other UK suppliers that I've bough equipment from to show me evidence of how they do this.

You, a random stranger on an internet forum, from a position of zero knowledge about my intentions, throw about random allegations about tax evasion and legality, and then are sufficiently disingenuous to suggest that you're being helpful.

I know which I'll go with.
 
Contax said:
Panamoz, a respected and successful supplier, state on their web site that "Price includes taxes and duties". How they do that is not my concern, any more than I would ask LCE, Wex or any of the other UK suppliers that I've bough equipment from to show me evidence of how they do this.

You, a random stranger on an internet forum, from a position of zero knowledge about my intentions, throw about random allegations about tax evasion and legality, and then are sufficiently disingenuous to suggest that you're being helpful.

I know which I'll go with.
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You are right, you should not trust me. You should do your own research, read the small print and take actions yourself to ensure you meet your obligations under UK law. Ignorance is no defence as you know.

My last word on this - any company that claims to pay VAT on your behalf but can't give you a VAT receipt really isn't paying VAT on your behalf. It's not difficult.
 
Contax said:
Panamoz, a respected and successful supplier, state on their web site that "Price includes taxes and duties". How they do that is not my concern, any more than I would ask LCE, Wex or any of the other UK suppliers that I've bough equipment from to show me evidence of how they do this.

You, a random stranger on an internet forum, from a position of zero knowledge about my intentions, throw about random allegations about tax evasion and legality, and then are sufficiently disingenuous to suggest that you're being helpful.

I know which I'll go with.
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It's a lie. They do not pay VAT and duties, but if your shipment is picked out by HMRC (very unlikely) they will make an additional payment on your behalf. As a result, they will make no profit on the deal but the volume of business allows them to take the odd hit.
 
frod said:
I suspect they turn a blind eye purely because these companies otherwise have no chance of competing with the big international corporation tax dodgers like Amazon.
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What?! No.
 
Contax said:
Panamoz, a respected and successful supplier, state on their web site that "Price includes taxes and duties". How they do that is not my concern, any more than I would ask LCE, Wex or any of the other UK suppliers that I've bough equipment from to show me evidence of how they do this.

You, a random stranger on an internet forum, from a position of zero knowledge about my intentions, throw about random allegations about tax evasion and legality, and then are sufficiently disingenuous to suggest that you're being helpful.

I know which I'll go with.
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Ok, when your camera arrives from Panamoz. Come back here and tell us what value they declared on the front of it. There's your evidence.

I'd put money on it not being the correct value of your camera, it wasn't on mine.
 
Mine was not the correct value from both HDEW and Panomaz.
 
There was a time when value related to cost to produce and what it was worth to the end user leaving a little profit to the manufacturer/supplier. Now value is based on what you, the consumer, is willing to pay for it allowing a vast profit for the manufacturer + tax + tax + tax plus whatever else the seller can glean from us end users. I think I'm babbling but I'll go for Panamoz when I need to.
 
I bought my D750 kit from Panamoz. I don't need to know how they trade or how or if they pay the correct taxes. It's up to them to declare their trading figures.
If people aren't happy buying from these dealers, then I suggest they don't.
 
The point is that with some 'Grey' dealers (I haven't looked at Panamoz specifically) it may well be you that should be paying the tax as the official importer. Most purchasers either don't realise this, or choose not to, and the dealer doesn't exactly go out of its way to point it out. Some will happily refund any import tax levied as part of the cost of doing business, knowing that they'll only have to do this for a small minority of transactions, since Customs presumably miss most of them.
 
Retune said:
The point is that with some 'Grey' dealers (I haven't looked at Panamoz specifically) it may well be you that should be paying the tax as the official importer. Most purchasers either don't realise this, or choose not to, and the dealer doesn't exactly go out of its way to point it out. Some will happily refund any import tax levied as part of the cost of doing business, knowing that they'll only have to do this for a small minority of transactions, since Customs presumably miss most of them.
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That's it in a nutshell. A very good summary of the situation.
 
Contax said:
Panamoz, a respected and successful supplier, state on their web site that "Price includes taxes and duties". How they do that is not my concern, any more than I would ask LCE, Wex or any of the other UK suppliers that I've bough equipment from to show me evidence of how they do this.

You, a random stranger on an internet forum, from a position of zero knowledge about my intentions, throw about random allegations about tax evasion and legality, and then are sufficiently disingenuous to suggest that you're being helpful.

I know which I'll go with.
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So has it arrived yet?

How much did it say the item was worth on the import declaration?
 
OldCarlos said:
Need & want, are completely different.
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True, but totally irrelevant. When I buy things, I dont need or want to research the companies trading policies.
 
allanm said:
True, but totally irrelevant. When I buy things, I dont need or want to research the companies trading policies.
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It's not irrelevant though if you (as the importer) should legally be paying any tax/duties. ;)
 
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KitsuneAndy said:
So has it arrived yet?

How much did it say the item was worth on the import declaration?
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Yes, it has arrived.

There is no mention anywhere on the packaging or documentation of any value.
 
Contax said:
Yes, it has arrived.

There is no mention anywhere on the packaging or documentation of any value.
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So in fact, the random strangers on the internet were right then. There's a surprise.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
So in fact, the random strangers on the internet were right then. There's a surprise.
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No, they were (as is so often the case) manifestly incorrect.

There was no attempt whatsoever to disguise the value of the shipment - which was correctly described on the packaging as "Photo Camera Device". Furthermore, it was delivered by UPS (a reputable carrier), and my previous experience of receiving items through them is that they will not deliver until all necessary customs formalities have been completed.

So I'm very happy with my new D750 - and even happier than I have not only saved £500+, but I will also benefit from a 3 year warranty.

For anybody else in the same position that I was, I would very strongly encourage you to buy from Panamoz (or any of the other dealers that were recommended in the thread).
 
Contax said:
No, they were (as is so often the case) manifestly incorrect.

There was no attempt whatsoever to disguise the value of the shipment - which was correctly described on the packaging as "Photo Camera Device". Furthermore, it was delivered by UPS (a reputable carrier), and my previous experience of receiving items through them is that they will not deliver until all necessary customs formalities have been completed.
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Of course there was, they ignored the rule that says you *must* declare the value of imported goods.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Of course there was, they ignored the rule that says you *must* declare the value of imported goods.
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Yup, obviously Panamoz, UPS and HMRC colluded to ignore this.

Remind me again - do I wave the chicken over my head clockwise or anticlockwise before I press the shutter?
 
Contax said:
Yup, obviously Panamoz, UPS and HMRC colluded to ignore this.

Remind me again - do I wave the chicken over my head clockwise or anticlockwise before I press the shutter?
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No, Panamoz didn't put a value on it. HMRC don't have the resource to check every single parcel and UPS just deliver stuff.

Panamoz have brilliant service, but don't fool yourself as to why they're cheaper.
 
My D500 was held in customs and I received a letter saying that to release it I had to pay the correct import taxes. I contacted Panamoz who were on it like a shot. They paid all fees and I had the camera in the following 24 hours and it was shipped as overnight delivery due to the delay. I still buy from them today .. great service but yeah we all know why they are cheaper :-)
 
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