Which Grey dealer for a D750?

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I've finally decided to try full frame, and the obvious step up from my D5300/D3200 seems to be the D750.

I've decided to go grey market, and at the risk of going over ground that has been covered many times before, I'm wondering whether there are any of these that are either highly recommended, or highly dis-recommended?!

E-infinity - £1085 with 1 years warranty
Portus Digital - £1179 with 3 years UK warranty
Panamoz - £1185 with 3 years UK warranty <= my current favourite, based on reputation/price/warranty
Digitalrev - £1189.42 with 1 year warranty
Onestop Digital - £1268.58 with 1 year warranty

WHY NOT UK NEW? Comes with a hefty price premium, and just 1 year's warranty. Price is £1600 just about everywhere.
WHY NOT UK SECONDHAND? Makes even less sense. Prices are around £1100 from private sellers and won't have any warranty (as the Nikon warranty is not transferable) and £1300ish from shops.
WHY GREY? Seems to makes the most sense, with prices around £1100 for a new camera from a respectable seller like Panamoz with a 3 year warranty. Even if I was unlucky enough to have a problem with the camera and Panamoz wouldn't sort it out, the £500 I'd save over buying a new UK camera would go a long way towards paying for any repairs.
 
I'd go grey too. Either Panamoz or HDEW (£1219) that I've dealt with before and highly recommend.
 
I've used a few of them but have never had a reason to test their warranties. Considering the D750 has had more than it's fair share of technical issues, I would say a bullet proof warranty is essential. The Panamoz warranty is excellent by all accounts and I would go with them. Their service is incredible and very helpful via email etc.
 
Got to be between E-infinity and Panamoz, depends how lucky you are feeling as I see it as price vs known guarantee. Looking at the D750 thread there are a few reliability/chocolate issues mentioned. Personally I`d go with Panamoz- just got an XT2 off them, could have got it cheaper off ebay.
 
I'm waiting till they come out with a new camera because its much better to get grey with new model.

I could have had a d750 several years ago for the same as they are now.

Same as the D610, i was looking at grey ones several years back for £950 and they are not much different now.

My point is the early grey adopters had the bargain, not people buying them now.
 
Panamoz.
 
hdew bought my d750 + d500 from then
also d7000 d7100 d7200
70-200 2.8 nikon
24-70 2.8 nikon
200-500 nikon
never had a warranty claim yet
 
nog said:
Got to be between E-infinity and Panamoz, depends how lucky you are feeling as I see it as price vs known guarantee. Looking at the D750 thread there are a few reliability/chocolate issues mentioned. Personally I`d go with Panamoz- just got an XT2 off them, could have got it cheaper off ebay.
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Exactly, price vs known service + length.
 
GTG said:
I'm waiting till they come out with a new camera because its much better to get grey with new model.

I could have had a d750 several years ago for the same as they are now.

Same as the D610, i was looking at grey ones several years back for £950 and they are not much different now.

My point is the early grey adopters had the bargain, not people buying them now.
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Same applies to all markets. Global price increases from all manufacturers. But yeah, uk gets bent big time at launch even after you've added all taxes. They still think we're living in the good ol days.
 
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twist said:
But yeah, uk gets bent big time at launch even after you've added all taxes. They still think we're living in the good ol days.
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It's not that. It's just that in the UK there are a large number of people who are keen to have the newest kit *whatever it costs*, and the retailers are smart enough to cater to them. You should be grateful. They're subsidising the cost of photography for the rest of us.
 
StewartR said:
It's not that. It's just that in the UK there are a large number of people who are keen to have the newest kit *whatever it costs*, and the retailers are smart enough to cater to them. You should be grateful. They're subsidising the cost of photography for the rest of us.
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I get that but the people that want the latest will just buy from other regions.
 
twist said:
I get that but the people that want the latest will just buy from other regions.
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I don't want to derail the thread with an argument about legality, but we all know that some people have good reasons for not doing that.
 
Get all my stuff from E infinity ,been using them for the last 3-4 yrs.
 
@StewartR Without wanting to derail the thread, and also to add Im not only a fan but also a customer of yours -

Would your business model not dictate buying your capital at the best possible price?

I do get the warranty side of things, and am literally just curious.
 
Hertsman said:
@StewartR Without wanting to derail the thread, and also to add Im not only a fan but also a customer of yours -

Would your business model not dictate buying your capital at the best possible price?

I do get the warranty side of things, and am literally just curious.
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Thanks for the kind words.

In a nutshell, my business model dictates complying with the law. We all know that most if not all "grey market" imports are actually "black market" imports where import duty and VAT have been illegally evaded. If my business were ever subjected to an HMRC inspection, and they were to discover that some of my stock had been illegally imported, that's the end of my business. Simple as that.

But beyond that, it's not just fear of prosecution. I'm proud of the amount of tax my business pays. I'm employing people and I'm contributing to society via taxation and that feels good. (Obviously I pay the least amount of tax that I can manage legally, but it's still a lot.) And it makes me positively angry to see some people - including far too many here on TP - advocate illegal tax evasion with one breath, then complain about the NHS or tuition fees or whatever with the next breath.

Sorry, that turned out to be a longer reply than I expected.
 
StewartR said:
Thanks for the kind words.

In a nutshell, my business model dictates complying with the law. We all know that most if not all "grey market" imports are actually "black market" imports where import duty and VAT have been illegally evaded. If my business were ever subjected to an HMRC inspection, and they were to discover that some of my stock had been illegally imported, that's the end of my business. Simple as that.

But beyond that, it's not just fear of prosecution. I'm proud of the amount of tax my business pays. I'm employing people and I'm contributing to society via taxation and that feels good. (Obviously I pay the least amount of tax that I can manage legally, but it's still a lot.) And it makes me positively angry to see some people - including far too many here on TP - advocate illegal tax evasion with one breath, then complain about the NHS or tuition fees or whatever with the next breath.

Sorry, that turned out to be a longer reply than I expected.
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:agree:
 
StewartR said:
Thanks for the kind words.

In a nutshell, my business model dictates complying with the law. We all know that most if not all "grey market" imports are actually "black market" imports where import duty and VAT have been illegally evaded. If my business were ever subjected to an HMRC inspection, and they were to discover that some of my stock had been illegally imported, that's the end of my business. Simple as that.
.
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I'm a bit confused by that statement. VAT is payable at the point of sale. If you buy an item and pay VAT on that item and have a receipt to prove that, I don't see how you would have a problem. However, if you imported the product yourself dodging the duty and VAT......
 
Are there any confirmed 'true grey' market operations in the UK, purely exploiting beneficial overseas wholesale prices while automatically paying the appropriate tax? I've read in previous discussions that Hdew supplies VAT receipts on request, and also allows the customer to collect ordered items from their location in Surrey. However, their T&C small print identifies the customer as the importer and Hdew as their agent, which might be interpreted as leaving the customer responsible for declaring and paying tax. Can anyone clarify? There's nothing wrong with grey market in principle, provided the tax situation is absolutely clear and everything is declared appropriately. Some very respectable major retailers like B&H in the US offer both officially imported and cheaper grey market alternatives for certain items.
 
Retune said:
Are there any confirmed 'true grey' market operations in the UK, purely exploiting beneficial overseas wholesale prices while automatically paying the appropriate tax?
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I'm not aware of any.

HDEW are frequently put forward as an example of a legal grey market supplier, but personally I don't believe it. They clearly appear to have a VAT registration, but they don't publish their VAT number on their website, which is against the UK online selling regulations. That in itself is suspicious. Furthermore they apparently only supply VAT receipts on request. Plus of course their prices are very similar to what you'd get if you deducted the VAT and import duty elements from most UK retailers' prices. Put all that together and my conclusion is that they are not paying all the tax which is legally due. I'd love to be proved wrong, but I've said that about HDEW before, and if I'm libelling them then they don't seem at all bothered to try to stop me.
 
Andrew Smith said:
I'm a bit confused by that statement. VAT is payable at the point of sale. If you buy an item and pay VAT on that item and have a receipt to prove that, I don't see how you would have a problem. However, if you imported the product yourself dodging the duty and VAT......
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Unless you import it, in which case it's a the point of import.

The grey dealers don't declare the correct value of the item that they ship to you, so avoid any VAT being added. If you were to then declare it and pay the VAT, then from a legal point of view that's all fine. But then it's not really any cheaper than just buying in the UK in the first place.
 
At least 1 of the 'grey' dealers has a physical address where you can collect goods from. So, if I order am item and go and collect it from the company I bought it off, the problem isn't mine. Or is it??
 
The dealer I am thinking of charges no more for you to collect than have it sent to you......
 
StewartR said:
I'm not aware of any.

HDEW are frequently put forward as an example of a legal grey market supplier, but personally I don't believe it. They clearly appear to have a VAT registration, but they don't publish their VAT number on their website, which is against the UK online selling regulations. That in itself is suspicious. Furthermore they apparently only supply VAT receipts on request. Plus of course their prices are very similar to what you'd get if you deducted the VAT and import duty elements from most UK retailers' prices. Put all that together and my conclusion is that they are not paying all the tax which is legally due. I'd love to be proved wrong, but I've said that about HDEW before, and if I'm libelling them then they don't seem at all bothered to try to stop me.
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This is the only explanation that makes sense. If there is another answer, they've had many years and dozens of opportunities to put the record straight, on this forum and numerous others, but all we get is silence.

One thing I will say about HDEW though, is that they at least have UK premises, and presumably they pay UK rent, employ people, and spend money in the UK. There is some merit in that, compared to Far Eastern dealers where 100% of the funds go straight out of the country with zero benefit to the UK economy. And if you request a VAT receipt, you get one - in which case I would think that VAT will indeed have been paid on that transaction. They'll make no profit on that particular deal as a result, but since hardly any customers are bothered about having a VAT receipt they're willing to take the odd hit.
 
Andrew Smith said:
At least 1 of the 'grey' dealers has a physical address where you can collect goods from. So, if I order am item and go and collect it from the company I bought it off, the problem isn't mine. Or is it??
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The problem is still yours. Someone, somewhere along the line, has to pay VAT and import duty (if applicable). And you, as the importer, are responsible for that.
 
As Hoppy states above, this is well documented on here, HDEW are not VAT registered, they use another companies Vat number that some folk thought was a parent company. Last news of them on here was that HDEW was now a 'dormant' company. I'm sure a check with companies house would confirm dormant or otherwise.
 
admirable said:
As Hoppy states above, this is well documented on here, HDEW are not VAT registered, they use another companies Vat number that some folk thought was a parent company. Last news of them on here was that HDEW was now a 'dormant' company. I'm sure a check with companies house would confirm dormant or otherwise.
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HDEW is currently showing as a dormant company, the directors for HDEW are the same as for a company called Validhurst Ltd.
In 2014 when I bought from them I had an invoice headed from 'HDEW CAMERAS' displaying VAT No. 671 9479 88 ... this VAT No. is currently shown as assigned to:

Validhirst LTD | Seconds OUT Unit 2, Sutton Business Park, Restmor Way, Wallington, SM6 7AH

A check shows that this VAT No. was issued 'before November 2009'.
 
Well done gramps, Validhirst.........that's them, I couldn't remember the name.
As your link shows the vat number is registered to Validhirst not HDEW. How they get away with issuing Vat invoices with that Vat number beats me.
 
admirable said:
Well done gramps, Validhirst.........that's them, I couldn't remember the name.
As your link shows the vat number is registered to Validhirst not HDEW. How they get away with issuing Vat invoices with that Vat number beats me.
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If HDEW CAMERAS is a trading name of Validhirst Ltd, then this is possible, however the invoice should state that 'HDEW CAMERAS is a trading name of Validhurst Ltd, Reg in England and Wales, Reg No....etc'
 
Mr Perceptive said:
If HDEW CAMERAS is a trading name of Validhirst Ltd, then this is possible, however the invoice should state that 'HDEW CAMERAS is a trading name of Validhurst Ltd, Reg in England and Wales, Reg No....etc'
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It doesn't, footer ...
It was a pleasure doing business with you.
HDEW Cameras, Unit 2 Sutton Business Park, Restmor Way, Wallington, Surrey, SM6 7AH
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GTG said:
I'm waiting till they come out with a new camera because its much better to get grey with new model.

I could have had a d750 several years ago for the same as they are now.

Same as the D610, i was looking at grey ones several years back for £950 and they are not much different now.

My point is the early grey adopters had the bargain, not people buying them now.
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Possibly but i would also suggest part of the issue currently with photography gear (among many other things) is that the weakness in the pound has put the prices up considerably whether grey or uk stock, it is also i think why the second hand market prices have shot up in the past year or so too. Before our wedding last april (2016) i bought the nikon 24-70 from panamoz and both a uv and circular polarizer filter to go with it for about £1030 and that was a lens that was already a few years old and superseded, the same lens alone now is £1175 on panamoz just to illustrate the point.

In terms of the OP though i have used panamoz twice now and both times been completely happy with their service
 
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Re HDEW, Validhirst Ltd, and VAT registration:

HDEW's website says this:

upload_2017-7-14_12-17-12.png

which is all fine. The limited company is Validhirst Ltd, and the trading name is HDEW Cameras. Nothing wrong with that.

The VAT regulations (VAT Notice 700, paragraph 16.3.1) state that you must show the following details on any VAT invoice you issue: "your name, address and VAT registration number - you may issue invoices under a trading name, but your legal name and address details must still be shown somewhere on the document".

So it might be argued that Validhirst / HDEW are not compliant with this, in the same way that they are not compliant with the requirement to display their VAT number on their website. But let's not lose sight of the big picture here. The big picture is that they are - apparently - defrauding HMRC by not paying VAT on the sales they make.
 
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