Where have I gone wrong?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Garry Edwards

Moderator
Messages
13,475
Name
Garry Edwards
Edit My Images
No
So, once again, my impartiality has been called into question on another thread – I’m starting a new thread on this subject because I don’t want to further derail the existing thread


This happens from time to time and frankly I don’t like it because I think it’s unfair. And I think it’s unfair partly because I think it’s obvious to anyone with more than 1 brain cell that I am associated with Lencarta (the advertiser status, plus my signature, makes this very obvious) and partly because when I find myself mentioning Lencarta I usually remember to point out that similar equipment is available from other suppliers too.

Perhaps the only solution that would satisfy some people would be for me to stop posting altogether because, on a forum at least, I may come across as showing bias. People who actually talk to me though know better. A lot of people who have been on the Lencarta-sponsored lighting workshops, held at my own studio, have seen me using other makes of lights on these workshops, and nobody who has attended any of these workshops has ever heard me trying to sell them the idea of buying any particular make of light – all that I have ever said on this subject is that people should avoid the junk sold on places like Ebay, and that it’s best to stick with known brands.

But I post on forums because I feel that I have some knowledge that should be shared. Over the years, I’ve done just about every sort of photography there is except sports and news, I’m far from expert in the fields of baby and family photography because I lost interest in those fields a very long time ago, and I have very little to say about hotshoe flashgun use because, although I do use hotshoe flashguns quite a lot, there are plenty of people who know far more about them than I do, these people can give much better information than I can. That leaves me with my own specialities, which are basically product, beauty and fashion photography. I also know a fair bit about the various studio lighting equipment that’s on the market, but as it’s difficult to answer questions on other people’s equipment without appearing to be critical of it, I think it best to keep away from that subject.

The reality is that almost everyone who posts on forums has some kind of bias, it’s unavoidable. Sometimes the bias is commercial, e.g. I clearly earn money from Lencarta, other people who post on forums may earn money from other people, whether or not they say so. And some of the reviewers for camera magazines are sponsored by equipment suppliers (but certainly not all of them). And then there are the people who have no commercial interests but who have strongly held personal views but often limited experience, these people often end up strongly recommending the gear that they themselves use. This happens a lot with camera makes, but it happens with lighting too.

It’s just a fact of life that the people who have the most specialised knowledge find it difficult to be truly impartial. For example, I spent years battling against a national parks authority who refused us planning permission. We ended up, twice, taking our case to the “Independent Planning Inspectorate”. Unfortunately though, the Public Inquiries are far from independent, because the Inspector who hears the case came up through the ranks of the people we’re fighting against, it isn’t fair but it’s inevitable because these are the only people who have enough specialist knowledge of planning law.

Another example is my main hobby, which is clay pigeon shooting. Now, I’m a pretty good shot, but I’m never going to be picked to shoot for my country. I get a lot of advice from top shooters, and pretty well all of them are sponsored by one manufacturer or another. None of them ever try to get me to change to the make that sponsors them, but if they did then, because I’m not terminally stupid, I wouldn’t allow it to influence my buying decisions.

I’ve written a number of blog entries on the Lencarta lighting blog. These are mainly tutorials, where I try to explain the principles involved in dealing with various lighting problems. There is an obvious bias there towards Lencarta because Lencarta pays for the blog, but I have never suggested that Lencarta equipment is needed to carry out these lighting exercises, and I have never said anything similar on this or any other lighting forum either.

And, finally, anyone who thinks that any advice that I give on this forum isn’t worth reading doesn’t have to read it.


If anyone has any suggestions that will help me to avoid the problem of bias, assuming that the problem actually does exist, I would welcome those suggestions.
 
Most of the (extremely helpful) advice you post is pretty much brand-neutral and like you say, if you do express a "bias" it's because you're posting about what your more familiar with.

If I were you I'd carry on as you are :)
 
Having met you Garry I know you to be firstly a really nice guy and secondly very knowledgeable, it's difficult as an advertiser your always going to have people assume you've a default bias, to those people I say listen to the advice you give they might just learn something

Keep on posting buddy...
 
TBH Garry using artificial light as part of my photography is a long way away from my muddling around with old film cameras and it's not an area I think I'll ever venture towards but having spent a fair amount on this forum over the last few years I have occasionally been drawn towards other sections and have read a few of your posts regarding lighting and studio work and always found them balanced and helpful.

As you have said you're very open about your affiliations so just keep doing what you're doing.
The enthusiasm and sharing of knowledge of you and others like you is what makes this forum tick.
 
And before this thread get derailed too,
we are full aware of Garry's affiliation to Lencarta.
And in fact it clearly states that he is an advertiser, under his user name.

Garry is a very knowledgeable person in his field,
and puts his point across in an un biased manner .

However, if we, the staff, thought he was pimping at every opportunity,
we of course would ask him to curtail this.

Right, as you were folks (y)
 
Just carry on as you are Gary. I find your posts very informative.
Yes I know you work for Lencarta but so what. If I want to get some strobes I will buy which ever ones I want.
Firstly I would read reviews and tech specs and take all this into consideration. Then I would ask others on their opinion. Of course I would also look at price.
Then I would make my own mind up, as it's my money.

To be honest I think the specs and price of the Lencarta equipment is very good.
 
So Garry you not a member of the CCPS then? that is the Clay Pigeon Preservation Society.:LOL:
 
I'd ignore the attack chap, jennygw has had quite strong views on other threads recently, it's not just you.
 
There are a number of consistent moaners/fault-finders on the forum ... ignore them and continue to contribute for the benefit of all the rest :)
 
It is what it is Garry. You will always have this issue regardless of what you do so I'd just suck it up and not worry about it.

I find some of your posts very informative so I'd prefer if you did keep posting from a selfish point of view:D
 
Thou doth protest too much, Garry ;)

You'll never please everyone, not all the time. Just do the best you can, accept that a bit of flack now and then is inevitable, and get on with it bud. This forum would be pretty quiet without you :)
 
...This happens from time to time and frankly I don’t like it because I think it’s unfair. And I think it’s unfair partly because I think it’s obvious to anyone with more than 1 brain cell that I am associated with Lencarta (the advertiser status, plus my signature, makes this very obvious) and partly because when I find myself mentioning Lencarta I usually remember to point out that similar equipment is available from other suppliers too..
OK I just went and read the thread.
There was one offensive post from neither you nor your nemesis, the whole thread was useful,
but
I saw that your first post could have had something like an "I am a Lencarta Rep" bit as a lead-in ... then I'm sure everyone would have been happy (except Jenny)

Have you though about a little byline at the start of any lighting advice post?
The position of the disclosure is vitally important, and I'm sure some newbies don't even know what the "advertiser" banner even means - yeah, obvious, innit?
 
OK I just went and read the thread.
There was one offensive post from neither you nor your nemesis, the whole thread was useful,
but
I saw that your first post could have had something like an "I am a Lencarta Rep" bit as a lead-in ... then I'm sure everyone would have been happy (except Jenny)

Have you though about a little byline at the start of any lighting advice post?
The position of the disclosure is vitally important, and I'm sure some newbies don't even know what the "advertiser" banner even means - yeah, obvious, innit?


It is generally assumed knowledge on the forum that Garry and they other guys are who they are and affiliated to whatever companies/products they offer. New comers to the forum may not be aware of this. To be fair to him Garry always does add the BBC-esq "other breakfast cereals are avaliable" style one liner.
 
Garry, I have found your opinions, expertise and articulation of the complex and often muddled subject matter of lighting to be of the very highest and honest standard. The passionate desire to share your knowledge and explain to novices how to expand their skills and move on in their hobby is glaringly obvious to the vast majority. The modern world is sadly full of disrespectfull idiots that seem obsesssed with attacking anyone or anything that demonstrates traditional decency and knowledge. They are the shallow, often sad and talentless who are simply happy to look and sound like they know what they are doing rather than actualy learn a craft properly and prove it (great at arguing their point when it all goes wrong).

For what it may be worth, you have my utmost respect as a master of his craft from a generation that has little to prove to the modern world.

Steve.
 
Garry,

Please, Please stay as you are...

Before people take a pop at you about your Lencarta side they should at least meet you face to face.

If Lencarta had to rely on Garry being the salesman then I'm from Pluto.
 
I got to the second paragraph... your post was too long and needs pictures garry..I lost interest too quick :)



PS I ahve no idea what lencarte is or what your talkign about.. so that didnt help ..
 
If anyone has any suggestions that will help me to avoid the problem of bias, assuming that the problem actually does exist, I would welcome those suggestions.

A link to this thread in you signature would be a good start. :hug:
 
Thanks for the various comments, maybe I was being too sensitive.

So Garry you not a member of the CCPS then? that is the Clay Pigeon Preservation Society.:LOL:
The joys of shooting English Sporting Clays... I'm consistently inconsistent. One day, a lot of the clays seem to be mated pairs and I leave them to breed:) Another day, my gun seems to have radar control and all the clays seem to be the size of dinner plates, and it was like that this weekend.
A link to this thread in you signature would be a good start. :hug:
Good idea, I've now done that.
 
If anyone has any suggestions that will help me to avoid the problem of bias, assuming that the problem actually does exist, I would welcome those suggestions.

Unfortunately your links with Lencarta are only visible in your first post in any thread, thereafter the only thing to differentiate you from anybody else, is the word Advertiser under your name. If that could be changed, it may solve the issue, if as you say there is one :)

Personally, I don't think advertisers should be able to pimp their own products in a thread, unless that product is relevant to the thread and can exclusively do something that no other can, but hey, its not my forum ;)
 
Mostly what Pete said.

As a salesman I'd give you about 4/10, as a lighting teacher I'd give you a solid 10.

The forum is all the richer for your presence, my photo nerd within is fed by your posts (along with a few others)

New people here take some time to learn where the solid advice comes from, but it soon becomes apparent.

And if anyone were to question your motives, your suggestion that you could offer parts to get my cheap octabox upgraded from your old parts bin should put that to bed. (for me, the fact I never took you up on it should tell people who I am too)
 
Unfortunately your links with Lencarta are only visible in your first post in any thread, thereafter the only thing to differentiate you from anybody else, is the word Advertiser under your name. If that could be changed, it may solve the issue, if as you say there is one :)

Personally, I don't think advertisers should be able to pimp their own products in a thread, unless that product is relevant to the thread and can exclusively do something that no other can, but hey, its not my forum ;)

And if advertisers do that they would see themselves banned, the only thing I've ever seen Garry do is say what he would recommend from his range as well as saying that of course there are other options out there, I've never seen him actively try and sell to people...

Much like you'd never see me trying to sell my services on the open forum as and when I've got some dates set etc...advertisers know what is expected of them in order to maintain their right to advertise to members of this great community
 
once again

You answered your own question. Stay brand neutral. Even avoid gear talk altogether. There is more to lighting than gear, after all. You already have your advertising space in the banner, that should be enough, surely :)

I've got nothing against you personally, Garry, or Lencarta as a company. However, I do feel that you have a habit of promoting your brand in forums, even turning threads into talking about your gear instead of the gear in question.

Example, I started a thread about EssentialPhoto. I'd never bought from them before, I needed to know about their gear, their reputation. You brought in Lencarta when it was completely OT.

I respect that you have "been around a while" and have valuable experience and knowledge to pass on, just like MANY of the posters here. I have not seen anyone else plugging gear they are selling in order to impart knowledge.

Please do not turn this thread into another advert.

With all due respect, I had a career involving sales - both little stuff and bigger stuff (avoiding boring details). This method of advertising does not help you sell, it makes you look over-keen and even a little desperate, which I very much hope you are not.

Before people take a pop at you about your Lencarta side they should at least meet you face to face.

Just for the record, I have met Garry face to face. We got on extremely well and I see no reason we can't continue to do so.
 
Last edited:
You answered your own question. Stay brand neutral. Even avoid gear talk altogether. There is more to lighting than gear, after all. You already have your advertising space in the banner, that should be enough, surely :)

.

so you can pay for a banner that says 'Advertiser' but not actually talk about what you advertise:rolleyes:. Go figure the minor hole in that plan
 
Last edited:
I will repeat what Cobra said earlier - if Garry or any other advertiser was over stepping the mark with how they use the forum, you can be assured they would be told. Our advertisers choose and pay for different packages and those payments are what keep this forum free for the rest of you to gather the advice and information you want. If that means that within the context of a discussion an advertiser mentions their own products, as well as pointing out other are available, then that is a small price to pay. Admin is happy with the situation and no one else is obliged to read those posts if they don't want to. It really is that simple :)
 
I will repeat what Cobra said earlier - if Garry or any other advertiser was over stepping the mark with how they use the forum, you can be assured they would be told. Our advertisers choose and pay for different packages and those payments are what keep this forum free for the rest of you to gather the advice and information you want. If that means that within the context of a discussion an advertiser mentions their own products, as well as pointing out other are available, then that is a small price to pay. Admin is happy with the situation and no one else is obliged to read those posts if they don't want to. It really is that simple :)

And unlike greenies if you really want you can stick we few advertisers on ignore :eek: actually maybe I shouldn't have said that :lol:
 
I will repeat what Cobra said earlier - if Garry or any other advertiser was over stepping the mark with how they use the forum, you can be assured they would be told. Our advertisers choose and pay for different packages and those payments are what keep this forum free for the rest of you to gather the advice and information you want. If that means that within the context of a discussion an advertiser mentions their own products, as well as pointing out other are available, then that is a small price to pay. Admin is happy with the situation and no one else is obliged to read those posts if they don't want to. It really is that simple :)

The advertiser pays to for the forums because there is a banner area to advertise in, I'm totally cool with that. But completely OT advertising and blatant bias should not, and I am sure you will make sure is, in future, not acceptable.

I am sure Garry would have no problem at all agreeing with me. We're both reasonable people :)
 
Last edited:
As a salesman I'd give you about 4/10
I think quite the contrary is true. Garry might not be aware of it himself, but the bundle of being an expert, frequent description of product features and benefits, as well as the latent link to Lencarta makes him an excellent salesman for the brand (plus the frequent positive testimonials that follow his posts). This is what good salesmanship is all about, as usual customers want to dart for the hills as soon as they catch scent of someone actively pursuing them for a sale. To Jenny, having a sales background, this is likely more apparent.

I like advertising for good products. I just hate letting agencies ;)
 
You answered your own question. Stay brand neutral. Even avoid gear talk altogether. There is more to lighting than gear, after all. You already have your advertising space in the banner, that should be enough, surely :)

It seems to me that half the time the first question most beginners ask is a variation of "Is this £5 kit from eBay going to do what I need?" or "What gear should I get?" which means sooner or later the conversation turns to talking about what gear to buy and the Lencarta stuff is a very cost effective option and a sensible recommendation for a lot of beginners.

If anything it's reassuring to have Gary around, from both benefiting from his experience in the studio and being able to ask directly about Lencarta's products. To be fair some other companies have impressed me in how they've responded to my questions but they don't have a presence here either so we don't really get to benefit from that.

Which is quite normal of course, forums can be very time consuming and lead to a lot of grief.
 
The advertiser pays to for the forums because there is a banner area to advertise in, I'm totally cool with that. But completely OT advertising and blatant bias should not, and I am sure you will make sure is, in future, not acceptable.

I am sure Garry would have no problem at all agreeing with me. We're both reasonable people :)
But how is there 'blatant bias' when he adds 'other brands are available' and what's more is perfectly happy to help you diagnose problems with your lights? Surely if there was 'blatant bias' the answer to your query would be 'should have bought Lencarta'?
 
The advertiser pays to for the forums because there is a banner area to advertise in, I'm totally cool with that. But completely OT advertising and blatant bias should not, and I am sure you will make sure is, in future, not acceptable.

I'm not quite sure what your problem with Garry is,
but you do seem to have the bit between your teeth.
I have already answered this in post #5.
And asked that the thread does not get derailed,
as the last one did.
What part of that didn't you understand?

We have other advertisers that also offer advice and do mention their company where relevant.
The 3 admin (site owners) set the parameters, and are more than happy with the way that they, and
Garry posts, and reply to queries.
If they weren't then they themselves would deal with the person concerned.
Now, you have been asked a couple of times, please drop it,
as, to use your own words, I am sure you are a reasonable person.
 
Personally, I don't think advertisers should be able to pimp their own products in a thread, unless that product is relevant to the thread and can exclusively do something that no other can, but hey, its not my forum ;)
As above, the parameters are set by the site owners.

And I doubt that any photographic product on the market can do such a thing.
(waits for the pendants to jump in ;) )
 
For someone who was in sales, jenny doesn't seem to show many people skills. Sorry but there's been several threads recently where you've been harsh, overly critical. Perhaps that's something you might like to consider in the future.

Gary's advice usually consists of lighting setups to achieve the desired results, where to put things, considerations to take, and then the suggestion of "something like this Lencarta setup would suit".

Of course he's going to indicate a product as that's what he's familiar with, however Moses posts I've seen always state that other makers and products are available. I shoot canon, I wouldn't dream of recommending any Nikon products as I know nothing about their capabilities, yet I know of their products and they are a competitor to canon.

This forum is starting to lose its friendly feel, which is part of what makes it the best photography forum around. Too many people type without thinking. It's easy when anonymous on the net to express opinions they'd never say face to face. Perhaps that is part of the process as the site becomes more popular, perhaps it's part of the increase in social interaction through the internet and not face to face, but it'll be a real shame if it descends that way. There's always going to be differences in views. We work in a subjective field, but as adults we should be able to discuss those views without overstepping the line.
 
Just for the record, I have met Garry face to face. We got on extremely well and I see no reason we can't continue to do so.

So your current behaviour, of insulting and somewhat venomous comments is how you treat everyone you get one with? Maybe you're just a keyboard warrior.

FWIW I'll buy products (not just photography) from people who'll interact with me. The world has moved on from very static advertising
 
The advertiser pays to for the forums because there is a banner area to advertise in, I'm totally cool with that. But completely OT advertising and blatant bias should not, and I am sure you will make sure is, in future, not acceptable.

I am sure Garry would have no problem at all agreeing with me. We're both reasonable people :)

OR

you could just leave the running of the site to the capable staff that have already built a very popular forum, liked by lots of us on here and learn to appreciate that we have the expertise of an industry expert that we can ask questions to and get helpful replies from. (y)

OR

There is an ignore button, use it, as i am sure many will be doing with you soon if you carry this on.o_O
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top