Where do the advanced go for higher learning

shaylou

shaylou

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Shayne
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I was wondering where the advanced photographers go online to learn. I'm not really wanting to pay unless that is the only way and I really like videos. I googled advanced composition and got a couple of good hits but if you have any recommendations I would greatly appreciate the help.

Thank you.
 
Decide what exactly it is you want to learn, as it's easier to find help then. What is it you think you are lacking?

If it's just technical stuff then again, knowing what to search for make it a lot easier... so again, what exactly do you want to learn that you think is advanced? Just searching "advanced photography" will just turn up millions of hits about things you probably already know.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Decide what exactly it is you want to learn, as it's easier to find help then. What is it you think you are lacking?

If it's just technical stuff then again, knowing what to search for make it a lot easier... so again, what exactly do you want to learn that you think is advanced? Just searching "advanced photography" will just turn up millions of hits about things you probably already know.
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I would say that I want to know everything there is to learn. I know that's impossible but I feel like I am not learning much these days. If I had to pick a subject to start with I would say composition. I have watch some videos that were pretty good.
On the subject of picking a subject, do you have any recommendations on what subjects that can help an advanced photographer better their game. I really hate to keep using the word advanced (sound arrogant) but I don't want to waist my time on the basics or anything remotely close to the basics. Thanks in advanced.
 
Workshops, mentoring, books, peer review etc, it'd probably help if we knew more specifically what you wanted to improve though area wise etc :)

Composition for portrait and landscapes are going to be different ;)

Do you have a link to your current standard of work btw?
 
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shaylou said:
I would say that I want to know everything there is to learn. I know that's impossible but I feel like I am not learning much these days. If I had to pick a subject to start with I would say composition. I have watch some videos that were pretty good.
On the subject of picking a subject, do you have any recommendations on what subjects that can help an advanced photographer better their game. I really hate to keep using the word advanced (sound arrogant) but I don't want to waist my time on the basics or anything remotely close to the basics. Thanks in advanced.
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Ok... here's my take on this, but you're not going to like it.

Videos will not help you. You've been doing this for ages, and you're competent. All videos on composition will show you is what the "norm" is, and what is accepted as "good" by those who apply rigid rules. Study contemporary, cutting edge photography.. see what's current... what is trending etc. Conservative, traditional formal values that are taught in videos will result in stayed, boring, traditional work. Why would you want that?

Also.. get feedback from those with vast experience, not just anyone on here, who may, or may not know as much as you. Forget who "likes" your work, thats meaningless, especially if the person who likes it is an idiot. We all like to be liked, but it teaches you nothing. Listen to the CRITICAL feedback and ignore the crap from other amateurs. Listen to that advice, whether it makes you happy or not.

Also... you do have a habit of reacting very negatively towards those who have given you advice and guidance in the past, just because you disagree with what you were being told. Many times you've received crit on your street work suggesting that you put away the long lens and stop sniping, but went absolutely postal and started slagging off those that disagreed with you. If you only pay attention to those who's opinion you like, you'll remain static... you'll be going nowhere as it usually means you just want praise.


If you realise you want to learn from those with far more experience from you, I suggest you listen to those with more experience than you without arguing with them every time you hear something you don't like. After all, if all you're going to do is be selective and only pay attention to those whose opinions you like and ignore others because you've decided you don't like them, you may as well not seek the opinions of others at all.

At least you've realised you have stuff to learn though.... that's s start.
 
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I've learnt more studying other photographers and their work than I have anywhere else. To often photographers get tied up with the technical and not the image, so I'm pleased to see you thinking about composition, but at times that can be a technical part of image taking, applying the 'rules'.

Go see exhibitions, read about other photographers and their work, why they took things the way they did, there's plenty written about the well known ones.
Have a look at Street photography now - by Sophie Howarth and Stephen Mclaren
Being american , have you looked at the work of Paul Strand, Garry Winogrand, Bruce Gilden, Zack Arias, Joel Meyerowitz, John Free, Jeff Malmelstein, Alex Webb, Boogie etc
Then branch out, Daido Moriyama, Lee Jeferies, Martin Parr, Peter Dench.. the list goes on and on.

Work out what you like, what you don't like, why they took that image, how they took it, the timing, the composition. You're not looking to copy but to be influenced
 
Byker28i said:
Work out what you like, what you don't like, why they took that image, how they took it, the timing, the composition. You're not looking to copy but to be influenced
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That has saved me some typing, I think the statement is very good advice.
 
If learning was easy more people would be doing it. General purpose tutorials are good for beginners. If you're an advanced photographer you've grown out of classes and teachers. You have to become your own teacher. That means you have to develop a critical eye which can tell you what you like and dislike in the work of other photographers. Next you have to develop an articulate analytic eye which can tell you why you like what you like, and why you don't like what you don't like. Then you have to turn this critical analytic eye on your own photographs. The next step involves photographic experimentation. You must add diagnostic and prescriptive skills to your critical eye, so that it can tell you what you must do to improve your photographs.

If you're lucky now and then in this progress you'll come across an expert in one or another aspect who will be willing to help you with discussion and advice. Part of the willingness of an expert to help you will depend on the expert seeing that you're capable and willing to learn on your own. That's what will make their help useful.

Where do advanced photographers go to learn? Art Galleries, libraries, photographic societies, their modern web equivalents, and that small very important but hard to find transient space, just behind a camera looking at something interesting.
 
As others have said, forget tutorials. Start studying and critically analysing the work of established photographers. Find some photographers you like, think about their themes and how those themes are supported by composition. Think about how they could have done it better.

Forget "rule of thirds" and all that tripe. Those are just one-size-fits-all short cuts. Think about how (and if) the composition contributes to a story.
 
Once again you guys have given me the direction that I need. I believe that you must first understand the rules and only then can you break those rules successfully. That being said, I think a good place to start (as mentioned) is art. I want to have a good understand of how art is put together so that I can pull (as mentioned) what works for me into my photography. Thanks for the help everyone.
 
I'm currently researching Tom Hunter, who images are influenced by old masters.He decided to document his local area, Hackney, based on conflicting the disparaging headlines of the local paper.

Take his most famous image: Woman reading possession order. Hunter borrows his composition and colours from Vermeer’s A Girl Reading At An Open Window.
http://www.saatchigallery.com/imgs/artists/hunter, tom/tom_hunter_woman.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...er_by_an_Open_Window_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
 
Byker28i said:
I'm currently researching Tom Hunter, who images are influenced by old masters.He decided to document his local area, Hackney, based on conflicting the disparaging headlines of the local paper.

Take his most famous image: Woman reading possession order. Hunter borrows his composition and colours from Vermeer’s A Girl Reading At An Open Window.
http://www.saatchigallery.com/imgs/artists/hunter, tom/tom_hunter_woman.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...er_by_an_Open_Window_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
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Oh interesting. I'll need to have look at that.
 
Byker28i said:
I'm currently researching Tom Hunter, who images are influenced by old masters.He decided to document his local area, Hackney, based on conflicting the disparaging headlines of the local paper.

Take his most famous image: Woman reading possession order. Hunter borrows his composition and colours from Vermeer’s A Girl Reading At An Open Window.
http://www.saatchigallery.com/imgs/artists/hunter, tom/tom_hunter_woman.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...er_by_an_Open_Window_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
Click to expand...

Forgive my ignorance but I don't see the significance of this shot.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Ok... here's my take on this, but you're not going to like it.

Videos will not help you. You've been doing this for ages, and you're competent. All videos on composition will show you is what the "norm" is, and what is accepted as "good" by those who apply rigid rules. Study contemporary, cutting edge photography.. see what's current... what is trending etc. Conservative, traditional formal values that are taught in videos will result in stayed, boring, traditional work. Why would you want that?

Also.. get feedback from those with vast experience, not just anyone on here, who may, or may not know as much as you. Forget who "likes" your work, thats meaningless, especially if the person who likes it is an idiot. We all like to be liked, but it teaches you nothing. Listen to the CRITICAL feedback and ignore the crap from other amateurs. Listen to that advice, whether it makes you happy or not.

Also... you do have a habit of reacting very negatively towards those who have given you advice and guidance in the past, just because you disagree with what you were being told. Many times you've received crit on your street work suggesting that you put away the long lens and stop sniping, but went absolutely postal and started slagging off those that disagreed with you. If you only pay attention to those who's opinion you like, you'll remain static... you'll be going nowhere as it usually means you just want praise.


If you realise you want to learn from those with far more experience from you, I suggest you listen to those with more experience than you without arguing with them every time you hear something you don't like. After all, if all you're going to do is be selective and only pay attention to those whose opinions you like and ignore others because you've decided you don't like them, you may as well not seek the opinions of others at all.

At least you've realised you have stuff to learn though.... that's s start.
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Please do me a favor and stop following my threads and more importantly stop commenting on my questions. I do not respect your opinion. Thanks.
 
Try AdoramaTV , they have loads of videos spanning all levels of skill with lots of different photographers you might find something in there you like.
 
shaylou said:
I was wondering where the advanced photographers go online to learn. I'm not really wanting to pay unless that is the only way and I really like videos. I googled advanced composition and got a couple of good hits but if you have any recommendations I would greatly .
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Does this mean your an advanced photogrpaher and you want to know where to go to learn more?

you go behind your camera and you take pictures.. thats the only way you learn.......
 
KIPAX said:
you go behind your camera and you take pictures.. thats the only way you learn.......
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I disagree, Photography is like any other skill, you need direction, for example I spent 24 years learning guitar but i couldn't have done it on my own with no other influences (hence my GNR thumbnail), yes most of it is done on your own but you still need to watch others and learn from them.
 
Silvermuir said:
I disagree, Photography is like any other skill, you need direction, for example I spent 24 years learning guitar but i couldn't have done it on my own with no other influences (hence my GNR thumbnail), yes most of it is done on your own but you still need to watch others and learn from them.
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I agree, not only do you need direction but you will be stop getting better at a certain point if you don't reach for outside help and direction.
 
Silvermuir said:
I disagree, P.
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well thats what makes the world go around :)

best advice I ever got was to go out taking pictures.. then go out and take some more.. then go and do it again and when your finished.. go and take more pictures.... the way to learn is by taking pictures.. and as such I forward that advice to others at any level..

You can disagree and suggest videos and books and thats great..... But I am gonna stick with mine.. tried and tested :)
 
shaylou said:
I agree, not only do you need direction but you will be stop getting better at a certain point if you don't reach for outside help and direction.
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other people cant give you direction.. sorry but thats what comes from yourself.. IMHO its the one and only thing we cant pass on to other people...
 
You can do both, plenty of time in the day to get out there with your camera and watch a few vids :)
 
KIPAX said:
other people cant give you direction.. sorry but thats what comes from yourself.. IMHO its the one and only thing we cant pass on to other people...
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Of course they can give you direction and that is exactly what the members did in this thread. From their comments and help figured out where I needed to start and that has giving me the direction on how to accomplish my mission.

On the part about go out and shoot, that's great advise for a beginner and I give it out often but we have moved passed the beginners stage so it is a little out of context here. But still great advise for the correct person.
 
shaylou said:
On the part about go out and shoot, that's great advise for a beginner and I give it out often but we have moved passed the beginners stage .
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OMG .... thats so sad to read :( and our so up yourself its unbelievable..

Your saying your so good at photogrpahy that taking pictures isnt going to help you anymore.. you now need other people to tell you what direction to take in order for you to get better?

what a load of tosh ..
 
KIPAX said:
OMG .... thats so sad to read :( and our so up yourself its unbelievable..

Your saying your so good at photogrpahy that taking pictures isnt going to help you anymore.. you now need other people to tell you what direction to take in order for you to get better?

what a load of tosh ..
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Slow down turbo, I didn't say that it wouldn't help and you are totally missing the point. I meant that once you get to a certain point in your photography just shooting is going to be little help compared to say studying composition from an accomplished artist and then taking that into the field. The whole reason I want to study is because I have hit a wall in my learning and that is something that shooting is not and will not get me passed. If you read the question I ask it was for "advanced" help so my comment about beginners is not being arrogant and I don't appreciate the accusation after all the whole thread is about advanced help.
 
I don't think that's what he meant, from what I gather he's learned the basics (important) and now he just wants ideas ,I look in awe myself at other photographers (many of whom are on this site) and thought my god I wish i was that good ...whats his secret. I think he just wants to up his game a bit as do we all and a good place to start is by looking at the techniques the great photographers use and try and implement them into your own style.
 
No worries, I learned everything I know there, my day job is a camera operator in the film world, movies, corporate,weddings etc but photography is a totally different animal, it has the same principals but its much more of an art form and much more fun!. It looks like they've expanded the amount of videos available so I may have to take my own advice and catch up on it all :) .
 
shaylou said:
I was wondering where the advanced photographers go online to learn. I'm not really wanting to pay unless that is the only way and I really like videos. I googled advanced composition and got a couple of good hits but if you have any recommendations I would greatly appreciate the help.

Thank you.
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Have you looked at Creative Live, some of their information is free.
 
shaylou said:
Please do me a favor and stop following my threads and more importantly stop commenting on my questions. I do not respect your opinion. Thanks.
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Shame, because he is an advanced educator in the field. You might not like what he says or take his advice, but if you are interested in advanced courses these are generally the pointers you will be given. You won't have smoke blown up your backside, or just be praised which seems to be what you want, but you will be criticised, challenged, pushed to improve, directed and assisted.
 
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KIPAX said:
OMG .... thats so sad to read :( and our so up yourself its unbelievable..

Your saying your so good at photogrpahy that taking pictures isnt going to help you anymore.. you now need other people to tell you what direction to take in order for you to get better?

what a load of tosh ..
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This is going the same way of many of his requests, where he has an idea of what he wants to hear and will dismiss anything outside that narrow criteria.

"We have moved past..." Comes across as very pretentious.
 
shaylou said:
Forgive my ignorance but I don't see the significance of this shot.
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You said a good place to start was art. I gave you an example of an artist who produces images influenced by old paintings, previous art. A really interesting artist to study when you look at the depth of his work and references.
 
shaylou said:
Please do me a favor and stop following my threads and more importantly stop commenting on my questions. I do not respect your opinion. Thanks.
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(shrug)

Already within one page, you're questioning the opinions of those with more experience, and no, I don't mean just myself.

You don't want advice from those more advanced than you at all, you just want advice you agree with... or advice from those you like.

Good luck with getting your ego stroked.
 
Silvermuir said:
Try AdoramaTV , they have loads of videos spanning all levels of skill with lots of different photographers you might find something in there you like.
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Thanks for posting about this. Some interesting articles. Haven't watched any of the films yet but it looks really useful and free of arguments, rants and put downs. Hooray!
 
shaylou said:
Please do me a favor and stop following my threads and more importantly stop commenting on my questions. I do not respect your opinion. Thanks.
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Shayne, if you have an issue with David's post, that's what the forum's ignore function is for. But in my own personal opinion you'd be missing out, because his advice was absolutely "on the money". I've seen LOTS of your threads degenerate into slanging matches because you fail to approach things with an open mindset. Why have I seen them, when you mainly shoot "street" and I've very little interest in that genre... mainly because either you have reported someone for disagreeing with you "Quelle horreur !" - OR because you've descended to personal insults or name calling and been reported for it. If you ARE going to try for some form of advanced mentoring though, you're going to have to grow a far thicker skin and be ready to deal with far harsher criticism than you get on here - as it WON'T be tempered by the presence of the "nice shot" brigade.

Byker28i said:
Shame, because he is an advanced educator in the field. You might not like what he says or take his advice, but if you are interested in advanced courses these are generally the pointers you will be given. You won't have smoke blown up your backside, or just be praised which seems to be what you want, but you will be criticised, challenged, pushed to improve, directed and assisted.
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Exactly - David's no-nonsense and forthright tone may not win him friends in certain parts, but, as a straight talking Northerner myself I find it refreshing - he's got nothing to prove, and nothing much to gain really by repeatedly trying to get you to open your mind - but he still trys... As I said earlier, if you really don't want to see his replys to your post, put him on ignore... but you'd do yourself a big favour if you'd drop the ego, open your mind, and actually listen and perhaps take on board or try and work with some of his points.

Either way, STOP THE FEUD, and THE RTM's of him. Ignore or Embrace, but the slanging matches stop.



@Pookeyhead - David - I think this may be a lost cause I'm afraid... maybe it's for the best to just not bother in certain cases.
 
If you think you are beyond the beginner stage then you've probably got a good handle on the technicalities of making pictures. That's pretty simple. Progressing as a picture maker is more difficult because it's about understanding what you are trying to show and say. Figuring out where your vision lies and the best ways to get it across in photographs. One thing's for sure it isn't a steadily rising curve, it's a series of steps. Minor breakthroughs are made followed by periods of stagnation where you repeat what you have discovered followed by breakthroughs etc.

The advice offered here has been good. Look at as many good pictures of all sorts as you can, analyse them to see why they are good, what makes them work, how the 'golden rules' fit them (or not). But most of all you have to keep on taking lots and lots of pictures. You have to take pictures just to see what happens. Don't be afraid to make s*** pictures, because some of those might have a small something in them which you can pick out and develop to help you take the next step upwards.

The only way to improve your pictures is to make more.You don't take better photos sitting on your arse thinking about it or watching Youtube videos. You might get lots of ideas by looking at other people's pictures, by reading about the thought processes (rather than the techniques) of other photographers, artists, musicians, writers. But only by clicking that shutter will you really understand how and why it is important. Learning by doing. There's no other way. Painters don't just paint their masterpieces. They are forever sketching, doodling, playing around with visual ideas. Why? Not just to practice technique, but to keep their eyes and mind working.

Most importantly, as has already been advised, you have to learn how to dissect and analyse your own pictures. To find the weaknesses and strengths and work on them. If you can't be self-motivated, self-critical and self-reliant as an image maker then you're stuffed.
 
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