Where am I Going Wrong ?

inlineadam

inlineadam

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Adam
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Hi everyone, i'm in need of some advice! :help:

My main area of photography is motorsport and recently i've been at " grass track events " ( which is basically rallying around a field ).

The problem i have, is with my images. They seem to be either out of focus, noisey or not very sharp at all.

However, when viewing them on the LCD during the events they seemed fine.

I've been shooting in TV , with 1/400th ( so fast enough ) using AF and AI Servo , ISO 100. They looked fine when i took them..

Here's a couple examples:


Trash by Inlineadam, on Flickr


Trash by Inlineadam, on Flickr


Perhaps my AF points are wrong,... but their quite noisy aswell... :( :help:









What's the problem? Me? , Lens?, Body ? ( 20D + 55-250 IS )

Thanks in advance, i really want to get my images up to a high standard for the Colin Mcrae Stages in october! :D :help:
 
Hi. :wave:

I am no expert, but the light does not seem to be good enough to be useing iso 100.
 
Well they are in focus, and look reasonable sharp.

I know 1/400s seems fast enough, but is it really. I have never done motor sport, but i do football matches. I find that things only become truly sharp at at least 1/640, but i'd prefer 1/800s or 1/1000s tbh.

Looking at the red car you can see blur caused by movement (not miss focus), look at the badge on the bonnet. This could be camera shake, or it could be the IS struggling as you pan your shot, it jumps about sometimes as it adjusts to new 'stimulus'. I would knock the shutter up and turn off IS personally.

Other than that, try some low shutter speeds and do some pan shots aswell to mix things up.

Bear in mind the 55-250 is a budget lens, it not gonna be tack sharp, but i think your shots are fine, nothiing to be concerned about.

Edit - +1 about the iso too. The shots are a tad under exposed, maybe 1/3-2/3 under. Iso 200 @ 1/640 would probably of served you better on that day/event.
 
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Adey said:
Well they are in focus, and look reasonable sharp.

I know 1/400s seems fast enough, but is it really. I have never done motor sport, but i do football matches. I find that things only become truly sharp at at least 1/640, but i'd prefer 1/800s or 1/1000s tbh.

Looking at the red car you can see blur caused by movement (not miss focus), look at the badge on the bonnet. This could be camera shake, or it could be the IS struggling as you pan your shot, it jumps about sometimes as it adjusts to new 'stimulus'. I would knock the shutter up and turn off IS personally.

Other than that, try some low shutter speeds and do some pan shots aswell to mix things up.

Bear in mind the 55-250 is a budget lens, it not gonna be tack sharp, but i think your shots are fine, nothiing to be concerned about.

Edit - +1 about the iso too. The shots are a tad under exposed, maybe 1/3-2/3 under. Iso 200 @ 1/640 would probably of served you better on that day/event.
Click to expand...

Cheers, i had IS off.
 
The biggest problem for me isn't sharpness or focus, but at 1/400 and on the turn-in to a slow corner.. if it wasn't for the mud in the air the cars might as well be parked in a field..

A slower shutter, panning and a better position would give some motion blur on the wheels and background that would help capture the sense of motion. Sharpness is over-rated..

This is at 1/125, 92 was moving faster than the cars in your shots..



.. and it took all afternoon practising panning top get a few that were acceptable. There's a couple of hundred duds from that afternoon as well. You've plenty time to get some practice in before the McRae :thumbs:
 
I think the trouble with the OP though is those cars probably dont move that fast around a muddy field, and the slower the car the slower the shutter needs to be, then it becomes a lot harder to get the motion blur, without the whole thing being a blurry mess.

To OP, forget what i said about being under exposed, i think this was inaccurate.

:)
 
I tried a couple shots Alastair of the type you mentioned, but i'd rather not do that for every single car...

Very Seldom did any car hit any higher than second gear , it was all about control ( as it was a grass track event ). So we're talking very low speeds, not fast at all.

I was using AI Servo - Do you think that it was choosing the wrong focusing points perhaps?


Before this event, i attended another - and i used Full Manual ( with AF though ), this time with One SHot.

The shots generally were much better -



IMG_0549 by Inlineadam, on Flickr
 
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Adey said:
There seems to be a distinct lack of helmets in these photos too, very casual affair was it? :lol
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Indeed it was!

Ofcourse the whole event was insured etc though :)

I have family who are a member of the car club, and the farmers of the club let us use their free fields for a comp :!
 
Adey said:
Yeah AI servo is best left to pro gear in my opinion. I use it on my 400d but i use back-button focusing and use it more like one shot really anyway.
Click to expand...

I was thinking that it wasn't working well...:thinking:

20D is " older " and it's only a 55-250 afterall...


The set of images from the previous event one shot seemed to be just fine. I suppose i only used AI Servo because i learned about it two days before... lol.

Maybe i'll stick to manual aswell, in my opinion they're all a bit darker than i would have liked..
 
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The thing with one shot is this; As soon as it finds focus it snaps straight away, so your almost guaranteed to get a shot in focus, unless your subject is moving to/away from you a great speed, in which case shutter lag would come into play. To know whats in focus it has to know when it is out of focus, it scans in a direction that makes the pixels contrast more, once it goes past the optimal point of focus, it goes OOF, it recognises this and quickly jumps back to where it was at its sharpest, and attempts to fire the shutter as soon after this point is reached.

With AI servo, it has to do this constantly, making little comparisons and checking how contrast changes as the lens turns, it cant be in focus the whole time, it tries its best to predict and anticipate the movement of a subject, but it cant do this flawlessly so there is always some hunting around going on.

For me i dont need AI servo, my 400d only shoots at 3fps second, so i can do that just as fast with my finger anyway. I do use continuous shooting, but my thumbs is working away whilst i hold the shutter down.

I do have AI servo on, but as i use back-button focusing, theres no reason not to.
When i shoot football, i 'pump' the focus button to track the player as i need it depending on the movements of the player. When its time to snap, all i do is hit my shutter just as, or just after the lens hits focus. AI servo will pause for a little while once it hits focus anyway, enough time to snap without fear of focus shifting.

so really im one shotting, its just if i did want to 'track' focus, its there without having to change a setting (thanks to back-button focusing). Though i never do, *** its awful :)

It all about learning the nuances of your equipment really, you have to harness your own techniques.
 
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Adey said:
I dont think i explained that too well, my technique is a very unorthodox.
Click to expand...

Haha, - what you've said has been a great help.

I think i'll go back to manual and one shot, as the set from the previous event seem much better !
 
Another point - I see you were shooting at F5.6 which I guess is wide open for this lens. A lot of lenses work better when stopper down a few clicks.
 
one tip I was given at a meet was to zoom in to one point, in my case the number on the motor bike, and see if that is sharp on the LCD screen.
 
Adey said:
It all about learning the nuances of your equipment really, you have to harness your own techniques.
Click to expand...

Alternatively, the old-skool method is to preset the focus manually on the point where a moving object (in this case a car) will be when you're going to release the shutter, then time it right.

Cars going round a track in a fairly predictable course is a fair candidate for this technique.

[/doesn't really trust autofocus, but then I do own a 5D and a bunch of manual focus film cameras :)]
 
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These were shot with a 400d with the same lens, as has been said before its works better stopped down a little and if you drag the shutter.

renault2009%20(2).JPG


renault2009%20(12).JPG


renault2009%20(4).JPG


The IS is great for panning too.

M.
 
Adey said:
There seems to be a distinct lack of helmets in these photos too, very casual affair was it? :lol
Click to expand...

I totally agree.
I think that any sport looks good when it has all the trappings of a class event.
A muddy field with some people "hooning" around in hatchbacks, with cones for markers is not really going to make for good images.
You need Lydden Hill and a Mini doing somersaults over Mabs Bank to make a good shot, or Brands Hatch with a multi car "off" at Paddock or Druids.
 
Musicman said:
Alternatively, the old-skool method is to preset the focus manually on the point where a moving object (in this case a car) will be when you're going to release the shutter, then time it right.

Cars going round a track in a fairly predictable course is a fair candidate for this technique.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, its probably on the first page of 'How to photograph motor sport' :lol:
 
Adey said:
Absolutely, its probably on the first page of 'How to photograph motor sport' :lol:
Click to expand...

quite ;)

The other benefit (in my head at least) is that you can quit worrying what the AF is doing and just concentrate on panning properly

edit: and manual exposure is even better for this if you've got consistent light. While it has its place, I find a lot of technology is often too much of a distraction.
 
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andy700 said:
I totally agree.
I think that any sport looks good when it has all the trappings of a class event.
A muddy field with some people "hooning" around in hatchbacks, with cones for markers is not really going to make for good images.
You need Lydden Hill and a Mini doing somersaults over Mabs Bank to make a good shot, or Brands Hatch with a multi car "off" at Paddock or Druids.
Click to expand...



It was simply a bit of fun, it's no championship. Just a friendly competition run by the local car club.

THe only reason i have been taking images at them is to get in some practice before the MCrae in october--> ? i think it is.


Ofcourse, these small events can be quite eventful, we've had quite a few people manage to roll their cars ! :)
 
Hi Adam

I've just had a quick look on your flickr via the link below the photo and yes, as you say, some of the shots are fine.

It maybe the shots you've posted are the enevitable ones that don't turn out.

The 55-250 IS lens is a belter of a lens, especially for the price, but in difficult lighting, it may well struggle a bit and you may have more failures than successes, but you will still get some - as you have.

Here's one my daughter took, with my old 300D and a 28-135 lens, yes it was a lovely day which helped.

IMG_00571.jpg


This was her first attempt at motorsport, yes the action is frozen, but it's a good shot and I was as proud as punch (obviously beginners luck, as I keep reminding her :lol:)

This is a 'standard' lens and not an L series, so good results can be got, you don't need to run out and buy one as below :D

Big_-bigger_-biggest.jpg


There is nothing wrong with Servo mode, and the 20D should manage well, especially for the grass meeting you shot, don't forget though, in this mode, the camera will take the shot, whether a focus has been acheived or not...

A quick question - which / how many focus point(s) were you using - were you on centre spot only or all active ?

Hope this is of some help...
 
andyred said:
don't forget though, in this mode, the camera will take the shot, whether a focus has been achieved or not...
Click to expand...

Which is exactly why i said not to bother with AI Servo. I'd rather have 4 shots in focus of my choice, rather than 10 shots with half of them OOF with no choice about which ones are in focus.

Its pointless spamming IMO, capture the moment yourself i say. And seeing as the camera(s) in question shoot around or under 3fps, the same shot rate can be achieved in single shot anyway.

The 20d may be fine, but like Neil_G says, the limiting factor will be the lens. So untill OP has decent glass, i still say stick to one shot.
 
Nothing wrong with AI servo mode. I find it utterly invaluable for my motorsport and show jumping work and 99% of the shots are properly focused, so much so I didn't even know it would shoot without proper focus!

With one shot focusing, anything going at a decent rate will have moved too far from the focal point to be properly focused, unless you are pre focusing.

EDIT - the Canon 55-250 is EASILY good enough to get supurb results with AI focusing.
 
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I use the same equipment as yourself and find its a great combo but does sometimes struggle in low light, one thing that helped me is back button focus with al servo, its in the custom function, ive tried it and have never gone back. Also i see your using multi point focus points, pick the central point and its the best focal point to use for motorsport
 
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Thanks ever so much for the advice folks.

I'm still on the learning curve, and i'll admit, i only found out about AI Servo the night before so it was the first time i'd use it. I'd never used TV before either ( normally use manual ) but found things much easier in TV!

I was using multi point focus, i will try single point for a few shots next time and see how they turn out :)

As people have said, i think i was being too harsh on myself as some of the images turned out fine...... stupid me thinking all 200 images should be correct exposure and in perfect focus!!!:bang:


I'll stick with AI Servo and TV for the moment i think :D
 
Another litle tip is turn of is, you dont need it plus it speeds up auto focus as it gives the camera/lens less to think about.
 
Domski said:
According to the exif data, both the first two shots were at 1/200th ?
Click to expand...

Yes i think they were, generally i was using 1/400th , but at times it became so dark i had to lower the shutter to allow a correct exposure :)
 
D-pearce92 said:
Another litle tip is turn of is, you dont need it plus it speeds up auto focus as it gives the camera/lens less to think about.
Click to expand...

Um, bad advice IMO.

If you have IS, use it. It makes no difference to AF speed whatsoever, it's purely a mechanical action and doesn't take any processing from the body or AF speed away from the lens.

You'll find your keeper rate goes up with IS switched on in the 55-250 which has very good stabilisation with panning detection.

Using IS on the 55-250 also helps make tracking a subject far easier and when you are panning, keeps the frame steadier.

I don't know why you would ever turn it off unless you were using a tripod, which you wouldn't do anyway while shooting most sports.
 
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inlineadam said:
Yes i think they were, generally i was using 1/400th , but at times it became so dark i had to lower the shutter to allow a correct exposure :)
Click to expand...

Another way of adjusting the exposure would be to bump up the ISO, that would keep the shutter speed up.
 
odd jim said:
Um, bad advice IMO.

If you have IS, use it. It makes no difference to AF speed whatsoever, it's purely a mechanical action and doesn't take any processing from the body or AF speed away from the lens.

You'll find your keeper rate goes up with IS switched on in the 55-250 which has very good stabilisation with panning detection.

Using IS on the 55-250 also helps make tracking a subject far easier and when you are panning, keeps the frame steadier.

I don't know why you would ever turn it off unless you were using a tripod, which you wouldn't do anyway while shooting most sports.
Click to expand...

Have to disagree, if youre pannings good enough you dont need is at all, with regards to af speed i think it is alot quicker in my opinion.
 
Again I disagree about the AF speed. In years of shooting motorsport and show jumping, it's never affected the AF speed on any lens that I've used or owned (and I used the Canon 55-250 since the week it was released and up until very recently) and it doesn't affect processing speed (the lens has it's own chip which handles the IS) and quite simply it won't affect focusing speed as it's totally independent of the IS system.

I agree about panning, if you're good enough you can use without (I pan without IS/OS in my Sigma 70-200 with an x2 TC on). But I still get more keepers with IS on than off.
 
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