When Two Tribes Go To War

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goldenlight

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Chanced upon this earlier, in a thread in which a beginner was seeking advice on which DSLR to purchase:-

camwarsuu9.jpg


Must admit I was a little shocked as it shows a degree of intolerance and tribalism that first impressions tell me are thankfully absent on this friendly site. Or are they? Hmmm, although I can appreciate that this cartoon was posted in jest I must admit I do find it disturbing, depicting as it does almost football thug mentality in gloating over the physical beating of a supporter from an opposing team.

Perhaps one reason I feel quite strongly about this is that I moderate a dedicated user site on which there has in the recent past been a degree of animosity towards a certain photographic magazine and its staff over the test report it published on one of “our” cameras. The staff in question commendably, in my opinion, spent much of their own time on our forum attempting to explain their rationale and positioning on that camera and the system in general. The response from certain sections of the forum was accusations of bias and the quite frankly ridiculous questioning of their integrity.

Being one who is always keen to win hearts and minds by honest and respectful debate, I was rather taken aback at the hostility with which some of our members greeted our visitors. In an attempt at bridge building and fostering mutual understanding I mooted the idea of the magazine staffers joining us to see for themselves the excellent results we get from our cameras on one of the regular forum “Days Out” that I organise.

The journalists were, to their credit, very receptive to the idea but I was totally unprepared for the backlash from the forum, which made it clear in no uncertain terms that “they” were not welcome and if “they” attended an event a number of members would boycott it. One particular veteran was so acrimonious towards myself and our guests that he left under a cloud – in my view good riddance as his behaviour was becoming perilously close to warranting a ban.

Since then, I'm glad to say, emotions have calmed considerably, our “visitors” have now become regular contributors in their own right and, although we will probably never see eye-to-eye on certain issues, debate now takes place within a framework of mutual respect and lively good-humoured banter.

So that is the background against which I offer this subject for debate:-

“SHOULD WE ALLOW WHAT CAMERA WE USE TO DIVIDE US, OR IS THE FACT THAT WE ALL SHARE A DESIRE TO EXPRESS OURSELVES CREATIVELY THROUGH PHOTOGAPHY A MUCH STRONGER REASON TO UNITE US?”

But it's written in the starlight
And every line on your palm
That we're fools to make war
On our brothers in arms


WHAT DO YOU THINK?


Thanks,

John
 
Oooh, It's Monday and this is deep !!! - Personally, not fussed about the camera, no snobbery here. P&S or Top of the range SLR - If it's a cracking shot it's a cracking shot......

It's all about the picture, not the tools.
 
I agree completely. Although you managed to sum up what I'd written in far less words. It's the results that count, not the gear used to get them.
 
Oooh, It's Monday and this is deep !!! - Personally, not fussed about the camera, no snobbery here. P&S or Top of the range SLR - If it's a cracking shot it's a cracking shot......

It's all about the picture, not the tools.

:agree:
 
A good pic is a good pic, the technique, settings, and general type of lens selection (i.e. macro, any from of image stabilaisation etc) are much more of interest to me than what type of camera system that person has and has taken the pic with.
 
I agree that it is the results that matter...

but that's one funny cartoon :lol:

Is it? If so, WHY? Or is it in bad taste and inappropriate?

What do others think? The whole idea of this thread is to provoke thought and challenge perception. Maybe the debate is about to get more interesting! :)

Thanks for your thoughts so far,

John
 
tha cartoon is much the same as the mac v pc ones you see about, its a little extreme but then cartoons do tend to be. The reaction to a bad review on your forum to me is more concerning. The reviewer are entitled to there opinions.

I do agree with the others though its the pictures not the camera that matters.
 
tha cartoon is much the same as the mac v pc ones you see about, its a little extreme but then cartoons do tend to be. The reaction to a bad review on your forum to me is more concerning. The reviewer are entitled to there opinions.

I do agree with the others though its the pictures not the camera that matters.

It was very concerning to me to, but fortunately we have moved beyond that to a far more healthy position and I'm not adverse to claiming some credit for that due to the amount of reasoned arguement that I consistently put forward on the forum.

Surely this cartoon not only serves to perpetrate the intolerance and prejudice that I had to campaign against (and I must emphasise that it came from a small but vocal minority of our members) but in fact takes the worrying fan boy/football hooligan mentality that is insidiously creeping into the hobby of amateur photography a stage further?

Thanks for your contribution. :thumbs:
 
I think taking offence at a cartoon (which is meant to be ironic and in its way actually pokes fun at the hooligan element by using that to portray how banale it is) shows how over sensitive we as a society have become.

We try to protect everyone from the slightest thing...in case they get hurt. It is a rough world out there, learn to take it on the chin and give it back. A bit of friendly banter, fun poking and jibing never really hurt anyone.

Sexist jokes are funny. Racist jokes are funny (heard the one about the Rabbi, the Archbishop and geaorge Bush....type things - they are religiously racist, but funny). Oldist jokes are funny. fatist jokes are funny. they are HUMOUR for heavens sake and the British humour is one of our strengths, why do we try to destroy it? Monty Python was ground breaking - they upset just about every group there is....but they were very funny.

I think,like the others, it is the picture that counts, but Nikon pictures are better than Canon ones. Olympus ones should never been shown in public......where are those little faces when you need them?
 
By the way, if anyone is offended by my remarks above........it serves them jolly well right!
 
regularly got out with different people with all ranges of camera Canon, Nikon, Sony, Hasselblad even an Olympus other than the 5 minute jest about each others cameras, it down to buisness of taking pics.

The joke itself was mildly amusing didnt provoke any thoughts of voilence against Olympus users. This is the net and you will always find a troll willing to provoke others for his or her amusement. Its easy enough to avoid ignore them.
 
I think taking offence at a cartoon (which is meant to be ironic and in its way actually pokes fun at the hooligan element by using that to portray how banale it is) shows how over sensitive we as a society have become.

An interesting and well reasoned point! Does anyone else agree I'm being over-sensitive or is my original interpretation justified? Lensflare (must use a Nikon with a name like that) I still think the cartoon was bad taste but thanks for putting a counter arguement. I'm sure we can agree to disagree!

We try to protect everyone from the slightest thing...in case they get hurt. It is a rough world out there, learn to take it on the chin and give it back. A bit of friendly banter, fun poking and jibing never really hurt anyone.

Sexist jokes are funny. Racist jokes are funny (heard the one about the Rabbi, the Archbishop and geaorge Bush....type things - they are religiously racist, but funny). Oldist jokes are funny. fatist jokes are funny. they are HUMOUR for heavens sake and the British humour is one of our strengths, why do we try to destroy it? Monty Python was ground breaking - they upset just about every group there is....but they were very funny.

Yes, we are a rather sick lot, aren't we? Somtimes I think it's humour in the face of adversity that helps us through disasters and tragedy - the war-time Blitz spirit and all that. Doesn't always make it right though, does it? Having said that, I'm not in favour of banning or censorship but I will attempt to win support for my position by reasoned arguement; that's what democracy is all about.

I think,like the others, it is the picture that counts, but Nikon pictures are better than Canon ones. Olympus ones should never been shown in public......where are those little faces when you need them?

I wholeheartedly agree - they are far too good and must be a constant source of embarasment to impoverished Nikon owners who cannot afford to switch! :lol:

Now that's what I would consider to be good humoured banter, but I would never joke about hurting a Nikon or Canon user. But that's just me - do others on this forum view things differently?
 
I think the winner in this debate is the artist who created the cartoon. Just as we try to create a thought provoking image he has achieved the same result through a different medium. As for the subject matter i for one care less about the camera used to take the image and more about the technique. You will unfortunately always get abuse on site because as in life every village has its idiot, best ignored.....JIM
 
I have only just come back to togging after a gap longer than some here have been born.After reading everything i could i went out for one camera but came back with an oly.Why it felt more comfortable and i wasnt nervous messing about with it.At the end of the day an analysis or rating of something is still an individuals preferance and assessment personal to them.If we did not have a choice we would have nothing to compare against. If we all held the same opinion we would have nothing to debate. A bit like being a labour mp. :D
 
It's funny in the same way that :bat: is amusing or other cartoons like Tom & Jerry or Road Runner are funny. There was even a recent Dilbert cartoon where his CEO pushed him out of the top floor of his office block and it damaged his brain in such a way he became perfect management material.

To sum up I think you are being a touch over sensitive and need to lighten up or :bat:...

I hope you understand that the :bat: comment was meant in a friendly joking way :D.
 
A cartoon is just that, a cartoon and, as such, should be taken that way. It's just poking a bit of fun at rivalry. I think you need to be particularly neurotic to get upset over what someone says about the camera that you use. We have a lot of friendly banter here but that is all it is. I don't recall anyone here berating someone else's photo on the basis of what camera it was shot with. In fact with most photos I don't think the camera brand is even mentioned and there are many good photos on here shot with point & shoots or even cameraphones.

Canon, Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Pentax, it's all good. Mind you, I'd watch that Samsung lot......:p :D
 
I have to admit to a really deep envy for anyone who has the time and energy to get upset about something that someone else says about their camera system. Their lives must otherwise be so smooth and fulfilling that they have nothing of more major importance to ruffle the smooth running of their existence.

To each their own and as the photographic results are much more dependent on what is behind the camera than the equipment itself it does not really matter what we use as long as we are satisfied with our own results.



:D
 
Hi John,

Welcome to TP.

Must admit I was a little shocked as it shows a degree of intolerance and tribalism that first impressions tell me are thankfully absent on this friendly site. Or are they? Hmmm, although I can appreciate that this cartoon was posted in jest I must admit I do find it disturbing, depicting as it does almost football thug mentality in gloating over the physical beating of a supporter from an opposing team.

I would have to agree with what other members, it's a cartoon. A simple drawing showing the features of its subjects in a humorously* exaggerated way. Nothing more.
* personal preferences considered.
Taking offence is a result of over-analysis maybe?
It's just a spot of ribbing toward brand loyalty.

Perhaps one reason I feel quite strongly about this is that I moderate a dedicated user site on which there has in the recent past been a degree of animosity towards a certain photographic magazine and its staff over the test report it published on one of “our” cameras. The staff in question commendably, in my opinion, spent much of their own time on our forum attempting to explain their rationale and positioning on that camera and the system in general. The response from certain sections of the forum was accusations of bias and the quite frankly ridiculous questioning of their integrity.

In my opinion, most (not all) 'photography magazines' just like any other monthly publication like 'what car', 'what camcorder', 'what guitar' etc, are plainly marketing/advertising bulletins that seldom generate a fair or even indepth review of any current release or product.
I worked in musical instrument retail for nearly four years before becoming a full time photographer, Not only was I well known for after sale service, I was well known for helping folk make the right choices based on budgets and requirements.
All product reviews in all publications related to the industry made life a little more difficult as they were totally unbalanced, deceptive blatant pitches/ploys designed to boost sales by exploiting the new comer or beginner.
Be it due to bias, sales propaghanda or sponsorship, whatever, it's sadly, quite often the case.
There have been a fair few threads here discussing similar issues with publications:
Here
Here
And here

“SHOULD WE ALLOW WHAT CAMERA WE USE TO DIVIDE US, OR IS THE FACT THAT WE ALL SHARE A DESIRE TO EXPRESS OURSELVES CREATIVELY THROUGH PHOTOGAPHY A MUCH STRONGER REASON TO UNITE US?”
WHAT DO YOU THINK?[/B]

Thanks,

John

Brand or type of camera won't generate seperation, Opinions, morals, ethics and preferences do.

Just my tuppence.
All the best
T.
 
Agree'd, I think you've read a little bit too much into that cartoon fella, it raised a smile with an un-happy, tired, feeling poorly moi.
 
way too heavy this subject, my brain hurts, lets get back to the photos!:bonk::bang:
 
There's probably an instant perception that the Canon and Nikon guys are joining forces to attack the Oly guy.....I guess that's what we expect to mirror some sections of today's society.

Looking at the cartoon again...what says that the Canon guy is not about to clout the Nikon guy for his unprovoked attack on Mr Oly.

I suspect that we see scenario #1 nowadays whereas #2 may have been the initial perception 30+ years ago.

Hope that's not to deep for a Tuesday morning :)

Bob
 
I think that you're getting unnecessarily deep. It's a silly cartoon, since everyone knows the brand battles there are.
Canon v Nikon (and how none of the other brands are worth getting ;) jokes!)
PS3 v Xbox 360
Ferrari v Lamborghini
etc etc etc
 
I think that you're getting unnecessarily deep. It's a silly cartoon, since everyone knows the brand battles there are.
Canon v Nikon (and how none of the other brands are worth getting ;) jokes!)
PS3 v Xbox 360
Ferrari v Lamborghini
etc etc etc

I concur!


PS I shoot Samsung :tumbleweed:
 
I refuse to read this thread because I know people are taking it too seriously :lol:

Its a bloody joke, and a funny one at that! Its all light hearted banter, thats it! Stop over analyzing it!!!! :D
 
Oooh, It's Monday and this is deep !!! - Personally, not fussed about the camera, no snobbery here. P&S or Top of the range SLR - If it's a cracking shot it's a cracking shot......

It's all about the picture, not the tools.

Probably the bestest, wisest and most simplest comment I've come across so far in the 4 months I've been into TP.
Really can't put it any better. :) :thumbs:

But, back to that cartoon itself: speaking as a cartoonist myself . . . wish I had thought of it!!! Naaa, even if I did, I'd hold back on putting it in here as I'd probably get ripped to shreds.
 
I refuse to read this thread because I know people are taking it too seriously :lol:

Its a bloody joke, and a funny one at that! Its all light hearted banter, thats it! Stop over analyzing it!!!! :D

utter piffle, wanna fight:)
 
Ok, I'll take a little dip in the deep thought pool for a mo.

I don't find that cartoon at all offensive, it's just a pic on my screen and I have the choice to see it or not too and that's how it should be.

I don't find it all funny though and the fact that some do could almost be considered a tad worrying. I know there is violence in cartoons all the time and we all consider it harmless but this is actually different to me. The violence in that last frame is undeniably vicious and the victim looks totally bloody terrified.

The underlying sadness for me whenever these discussions crop up is how easily as a society we can find things to divide us compared to how hard it is to unite people. Perhaps one day the number of people brought together through a common hate or fear might be outnumbered by the people brought together by a common love.

That's it, hippy time is now over. :D


For a little while. :lol:
 
Dazzajl - where and when's the love in then? !!

Some will be there to take photos....I don't mind modelling!
 
To be honest, there has always been what I thought was a friendly rivalry between canon users and nikon users. However, I've always thought it's all tongue in cheek and am surprised to hear that people get angry and worked up about it. I'm a canon user, I think i'd be happy to use Nikon though.

I do agree with many previous posts... it's all about the image.
 
Everyone is definitely over-analysing this, and it's an absurd situation anyway. The Nikon and Canon users would never stop arguing for long enough to team up against the Oly guy!

And of course we're all assuming they're ganging up on him because he uses an Olympus, maybe it's because he's.......GINGER :gag:*! Shock horror, this isn't even a photography debate at all! :D




*(No offence intended to any ginger people here........well I guess maybe just a teeny bit....... ;) :D )
 
I know what that cartoon is, it's just come to me.

It's like when you're out with a load of mates and everyone is taking the mick, the banter's flowing thick and fast and everyone's laughing.

Then someone just gets the whole thing wrong and makes a comment that goes over the line, gets too personal and stuns the mood..... for a teeny bit.

That cartoon just gets it a tad wrong in my opinion. The idea might be funny but the execution is too brutal.
 
Doesn't the cartoon simply depict the stupidity of some of those who hold the brand names too dear :)

I don't think I've ever looked at an image on here and been concerned about the marque of camera thats been used to take it :)

:D

*(No offence intended to any ginger people here........well I guess maybe just a teeny bit....... ;) :D )

No offence taken :lol: Well maybe a tiny bit cos there ain't much of me left thats still ginger :D
 
Sorry but unless you have a Nikon, I have no time to reply to this thread......(Irony....)
 
I simply think the cartoon is taking a dig at the unending "mine is best" that happens everywhere similar items made by differnet companies appear.

Just in this case Cameras

Replace brands with Audi and BMW and add skoda and you have the same thing.
 
I simply think the cartoon is taking a dig at the unending "mine is best" that happens everywhere similar items made by differnet companies appear.

Just in this case Cameras

Replace brands with Audi and BMW and add skoda and you have the same thing.

Oh I think it's a little unfair to refer to Canon as Skoda! :nono: :lol:
 
I have an ethical objection to the way Canon users are portrayed as wearing their trousers far too high.
 
Now, this is a funny thread.

To the OP, have you not heard of T.P members lynching olympus users recently... I thought it was well known ...
 
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