When do you see the demise of the combustion engine?

[Nod]

The MPG wasn't being compared, the range on a tankful was.

 

[dejongj]

actually it is relevant you can't compare a the mpg of a 1.2ltr with that of a 4.2lrt.

I though your point was about the range? Mpg didn't come into it at all. I mean nearly all the cars you wouldn't consider would beat the mpg. And also one of my cars would meet your criteria, but only because to fill it up you'll add 95 litres.

Anyway, non of that was the original point. It was all about that possible range

 

[wave01]

Mpg and range seem to go together for me. Bad mpg means short range.

 

[Nod]

Mrs Nod can get further on a tankful in her car than she can in the s***box. Hers is 4l and the s***box is 1.2.

 

[onomatopoeia]

Oh I know that, it just needs to filter through, you are talking about modern cars.

what about all the old s*** on the road and of course all those dirty VW's

if we keep hammering the emmsions in 10 years time x% of the cars on the road will be sooooo much cleaner.

You forget that on average 50% of the energy consumption and consequently emissions of a vehicle are not its use but its construction and destruction. That particular snippet of information was reported as coming from an organisation called "Greenpeace" during an edition of the Today programme on Radio 4, along with the suggestion that for someone doing 10k miles a year the most environmentally friendly way to run cars was to buy one new, run it for 12 years then scrap it in favour of another new car. If doing much less than 10k miles a year then that 12 year figure got stretched to 17 or even over 20 years.

My car will be old enough to get married in Scotland in a few months (and in England with Dr Ferdinand's permission), but I do under 5k miles a year in it, so no point in wasting energy and carbons having a new one built just yet.

If the VED regime for older vehicles becomes punitive, it will just lead to mass civil disobedience, not from people like me that can afford it, but from people that can only afford sub £1,000 cars, so expecting them to pay the same again every year to keep them on the road would be futile. You may have noticed that governments don't make emissions legislation (or taxation classes) retrospective, it's all very well allowing rich people to be smug and buy expensive new cars that cost little to run, but not if it punishes those in low paid jobs that can't afford to run a vehicle to get to work (outside of London public transport is often not an option) or ferry the kids around.

 

[srichards]

That green peace report justifies running several older cars and doing low mileages in them I'm working hard at that. I'd think some of the more modern cars with cats would actually be quite clean and cat technology may further improve so that more crap may be removed.

The rolling 25 year exemption should be returned.

 

[Peteaud]

Cant see leccy cars being that good for a fair few years yet.

Hydrogen to me is the answer, as there is a lot of.

 

[andy0306]

I have a BMW 330E on order, will be interesting to see how I get on with a plugin hybrid. I think i'll manage to live with the 0-60 in 6.1 sec and 120+ mpg (if I can keep my right foot under control) though

 

[Cobra]

I have a BMW 330E on order, will be interesting to see how I get on with a plugin hybrid. I think i'll manage to live with the 0-60 in 6.1 sec and 120+ mpg (if I can keep my right foot under control) though

Very nice, but at that price, it generally makes it prohibitive, for the average guy
BMW's new 2-Series Active Tourer and 3-Series plug-in hybrid range priced from £35,005 and £33,935 respectively.

But as Mark Said

My car will be old enough to get married in Scotland in a few months (and in England with Dr Ferdinand's permission), but I do under 5k miles a year in it, so no point in wasting energy and carbons having a new one built just yet.

Mine's not quite old enough to get married yet, well maybe in some Middle Eastern countries
So I also see no point in getting divorced from it, before we are even married

 

[RedRobin]

You forget that on average 50% of the energy consumption and consequently emissions of a vehicle are not its use but its construction and destruction. .

....In other words, Dust-to-Dust. I think a comparison list has been done factoring in 100,000 miles of usage. Guess what.... A V8 Willis Jeep was #1 and the Toyota Pious #80-something! Batteries are very environmentally UNfriendly!

 

[LASTOLITE]

we just need to carry on taxing emmissions to death, the car industry will then provide solutions.
at the moment they can continue to sell the rubbish they sell as its just not costing the users anything.

until anying over 100g/km is £1000/year we won't see the industry get its act together.

Shhhh! Dont give em ideas

 

[Mr Bump]

I think natural progression of emissions and technology will give us a good idea in say 10 years.
We will have very strict diesel emissions which will drastically cut smog and particulates, better hybrids and cleaner petrol and hopefully electric vehicles will have inched forward.

Also in 10 years the worst of the old diesels will be off the road.

 

[rjbell]

That green peace report justifies running several older cars and doing low mileages in them I'm working hard at that. I'd think some of the more modern cars with cats would actually be quite clean and cat technology may further improve so that more crap may be removed.

The rolling 25 year exemption should be returned.

That would be great I hate car tax with a passion its the most unfair tax around and completely unnecessary just more bureaucracy. Just add it to the fuel. The more you use, the more you polute, the more you pay.

 

[Nod]

But a modern, uneconomical vehicle will pollute less than an older frugal one.

 

[andy0306]

Very nice, but at that price, it generally makes it prohibitive, for the average guy
BMW's new 2-Series Active Tourer and 3-Series plug-in hybrid range priced from £35,005 and £33,935 respectively.

If it wasn't a company car, I wouldn't be buying one. I got the £5k grant when ordering, but I think that's now reduced to £2.5k.

 

[RedRobin]

Long live the internal combustion engine!!

 

[Nod]

Personally prefer lower revving twins and eights but that'll do! My only complaint about Mrs Nod's car is that it's too civilised sounding - only howls when booted and barely audible at normal driving speeds.

 

[Russ77]

I have to say I love my "dirty diesel", OK it's not going to set the World alight as it's only a 2.0 TDCi Focus which is just over 10 years old but it's the quickest car I've owned (only third car I've owned in 20+ years of driving) and a compromise based on what I can afford and something that's got a little bit of poke.

Yes, I'd love a Focus ST/RS or another hot hatch equivalent but wouldn't be able to afford to buy or run one.

Whilst I see the need to be greener, personally there isn't another viable option for me right now. I'd desperately love a newer "greener" car (i.e. one of the new generation small turbo engines) but the money just isn't there.

Electric cars just aren't going to be practical or cost effective so like a lot of the view on here, hybrids are the way forward in the immediate future but again, that technology comes at a price I'm not going to be able to afford any time soon.

With regards to pricing older "dirty" cars off the road, if that happens I'm well and truly scuppered! Even if they offer another scrappage scheme, I literally have no disposable income so just couldn't afford a new car (which I'm sure goes for millions of people who are also driving around in older cars).

 

[nilagin]

Personally prefer lower revving twins and eights but that'll do! My only complaint about Mrs Nod's car is that it's too civilised sounding - only howls when booted and barely audible at normal driving speeds.

Time for a custom built performance stainless exhaust, a lot cheaper than off the shelf makes. I had one on my Mondeo ST TDCi it no longer sounded like a diesel. Produced a lovely burble at idle or normal driving, but bury the pedal into the carpet and boy did it roar. Car could be heard from quite a distance too. Had plenty of people looking at the tdci badge in disbelief. Mine only had the mid sport baffle too, the full sport would have been louder still.
I recommend MIJ Performance in Walsall. Bit of a treck but at less than £300 with lifetime guarantee for S long as you own the car, well worth it. Probably less than £500 for a twin for a V8

 

[dejongj]

Time for a custom built performance stainless exhaust, a lot cheaper than off the shelf makes. I had one on my Mondeo ST TDCi it no longer sounded like a diesel. Produced a lovely burble at idle or normal driving, but bury the pedal into the carpet and boy did it roar. Car could be heard from quite a distance too. Had plenty of people looking at the tdci badge in disbelief. Mine only had the mid sport baffle too, the full sport would have been louder still.
I recommend MIJ Performance in Walsall. Bit of a treck but at less than £300 with lifetime guarantee for S long as you own the car, well worth it. Probably less than £500 for a twin for a V8

+1 I've had custom stainless steel as well. Much cheaper than the oem solution. The look on their faces when I asked to make it as quiet as possible without affecting performance was brilliant. That was on our 3.5V6 petrol.

 

[nilagin]

Whilst I see the need to be greener, personally there isn't another viable option for me right now. I'd desperately love a newer "greener" car (i.e. one of the new generation small turbo engines) but the money just isn't there.

Have you looked into schemes like Ford Options, if you don't do many miles, they generally do deals based on 6k or 9k miles per annum and over 2 or 3 years and low deposits, you may find you could be in a new car for around £200 - £500 deposit and then around £200 per month, depending on the car or model. At the end of the term just trade it in for another, you should have more than enough equity to cover the deposit. Any miles over your chosen finance package is around 6-8p a mile. I'm not 100% sure but I think Ford dealers also do similar schemes on their 2nd hand cars too.
Probably not suitable for you, but I can get a new Ka for £100 down and £100 a month and I only get £500 employee discount on them so for you it won't likely be much more. Ford have been offering dealer deposit allowances for a while now, plus at the moment their is an additional £500 off any new Ford, apart from the Mustang, Focus RS and the new Edge, just for having a test drive and taking delivery before the end of February.

 

[Russ77]

Have you looked into schemes like Ford Options, if you don't do many miles, they generally do deals based on 6k or 9k miles per annum and over 2 or 3 years and low deposits, you may find you could be in a new car for around £200 - £500 deposit and then around £200 per month, depending on the car or model. At the end of the term just trade it in for another, you should have more than enough equity to cover the deposit. Any miles over your chosen finance package is around 6-8p a mile. I'm not 100% sure but I think Ford dealers also do similar schemes on their 2nd hand cars too.
Probably not suitable for you, but I can get a new Ka for £100 down and £100 a month and I only get £500 employee discount on them so for you it won't likely be much more. Ford have been offering dealer deposit allowances for a while now, plus at the moment their is an additional £500 off any new Ford, apart from the Mustang, Focus RS and the new Edge, just for having a test drive and taking delivery before the end of February.

I do just over 12K miles per year and couldn't afford the monthly payments (with any certainty) on a new car. My wife gave up her job to become a full time Mum and whilst she's doing an Avon round and I'm doing some photography jobs here and there, on a long term basis there just aren't the funds, even at £100pm. We're running 2 Focus estates for practicality and anything that's smaller isn't going to work that well (especially as we're "talking" about baby number 2).

I think Rachael's Nan can get Ford discount still and we did talk about it but the finances just don't stack up

 

[nilagin]

I think Rachael's Nan can get Ford discount still and we did talk about it but the finances just don't stack up

Always worth keeping an eye on here http://www.employeevoucher.co.uk/, if things should improve in the money department. A lot of blokes at work use a dealer in Hertfordshire who gives even better deals on employee prices.

 

[rjbell]

I do just over £12K per year and couldn't afford the monthly payments (with any certaintly) on a new car. My wife gave up her job to become a full time Mum and whilst she's doing an Avon round and I'm doing some photography jobs here and there, on a long term basis there just aren't the funds, even at £100pm. We're running 2 Focus estates for practicality and anything that's smaller isn't going to work that well (especially as we're "talking" about baby number 2).

I think Rachael's Nan can get Ford discount still and we did talk about it but the finances just don't stack up

Hope you're getting tax credits on that. Depending on how many kids you could be looking a1 another £10k.

 

[dejongj]

I've never seen a calculation work where it is truly financially better to trade in an older working vehicle for a comparable current greener model. It's not worth it nor financially viable.

 

[Russ77]

Hope you're getting tax credits on that. Depending on how many kids you could be looking a1 another £10k.

Sorry...... 12K miles a year not £12K

Looked into tax credits etc but not entitled to anything.

 

[rjbell]

I've never seen a calculation work where it is truly financially better to trade in an older working vehicle for a comparable current greener model. It's not worth it nor financially viable.

I do not plan on getting rid of my knocked about family cmax until it dies. It's only 50k on the clock and only do 10k a year. Its serviced every year i'm hoping another 10 years out of it. Family life is tough on a car, bangs in car parks, kids bikes and prams thrown in the back. I'm not precious about it one bit its just a tool for the job. On the other hand if i had the money to spend it wouldn't be on a new family car. It would be on an addition and something to cherish.

 

[nilagin]

I've never seen a calculation work where it is truly financially better to trade in an older working vehicle for a comparable current greener model. It's not worth it nor financially viable.

I'm seriously considering trading in my 3yr old car on a 2016 model. The future depreciation of my current car plus MOT's and servicing, not too much difference to the deposit and monthly payments on the new car. Plus as the deposit is so low for me, 96% of the value of my current car goes straight back in the bank. One of the blokes at work changes his Focus ST2 every 9 months, his payments decrease slightly each time, last one he only needed to pay £100 along with his trade in, and doesn't even have to worry about servicing, the dealer isn't too worried about the mileage allowance neither so long as it's not too over the top.

 

[nilagin]

i had the money to spend it wouldn't be on a new family car. It would be on an addition and something to cherish.

I'm seriously tempted by the new Focus RS in that respect, trade in my current ST on a new ST on options and then use the equity in my current car to go towards financing the RS. Problem for me would not be trusting other people who would like to help themselves to the car. Suppose I could always leave it at work where it's behinds a security gate and well out of sight from the wrong prying eyes, then just swap cars when I want to use the RS.

 

[rjbell]

I'm seriously tempted by the new Focus RS in that respect, trade in my current ST on a new ST on options and then use the equity in my current car to go towards financing the RS. Problem for me would not be trusting other people who would like to help themselves to the car. Suppose I could always leave it at work where it's behinds a security gate and well out of sight from the wrong prying eyes, then just swap cars when I want to use the RS.

Sounds like a good plan to me. Will it be under cover?

Fast Fords always seem to be a good investment.

I love cars. If i had the space i would be one of the crazy guys that full barns full of them.

 

[nilagin]

Sounds like a good plan to me. Will it be under cover?

Fast Fords always seem to be a good investment.

I love cars. If i had the space i would be one of the crazy guys that full barns full of them.

No, not under cover, but in one of the car parks there are generally anywhere between 6-12 cars left for a month or more. There's even an 06 Aston Martin parked up in there at the moment.
They all tend to park up in one corner and as the car park always has lots of spare spaces, they can take up a little extra space meaning they don't get damaged.
I'm with you on the barns full of cars. That's first on the list should a sufficient lottery win come my way.

 

[dejongj]

I'm seriously considering trading in my 3yr old car on a 2016 model. The future depreciation of my current car plus MOT's and servicing, not too much difference to the deposit and monthly payments on the new car. Plus as the deposit is so low for me, 96% of the value of my current car goes straight back in the bank. One of the blokes at work changes his Focus ST2 every 9 months, his payments decrease slightly each time, last one he only needed to pay £100 along with his trade in, and doesn't even have to worry about servicing, the dealer isn't too worried about the mileage allowance neither so long as it's not too over the top.

With respect, a three year old or a 9 month old car are hardly in the "older" car category I would reasonably argue.

 

[nilagin]

With respect, a three year old or a 9 month old car are hardly in the "older" car category I would reasonably argue.

True, but you are then into the realms of having to spend money once the car is 3yrs old with MOT's tyres depending on miles covered, plus if the car only has a 3yr warranty any unfortunate repairs. It becomes a gamble, Pick the right car where the initial deposit is low and monthly payments are low and you can just merrily tick along in a new car for very little. As cars get older depreciation will slow but cost of maintenance can increase and on some cars replacement parts more difficult to find.
Trading my car in and taking back the equity I have in it would put me just under 50% of the way into the RS, do I cash in some of the ISA's I have for supplementing retirement income to pay the rest. So, so tempting and working one Sunday a month will pay for the new ST too. It's sounding more tempting by the second, even better if they start offering employee discount on the RS. People who ordered their cars last year have been given a July delivery date at the moment, I'd probably be looking at next year if I ordered now, then there are rumours of a lightweight version, my heads in a spin.

 

[Mr Bump]

Time for a custom built performance stainless exhaust, a lot cheaper than off the shelf makes. I had one on my Mondeo ST TDCi it no longer sounded like a diesel. Produced a lovely burble at idle or normal driving, but bury the pedal into the carpet and boy did it roar. Car could be heard from quite a distance too. Had plenty of people looking at the tdci badge in disbelief. Mine only had the mid sport baffle too, the full sport would have been louder still.
I recommend MIJ Performance in Walsall. Bit of a treck but at less than £300 with lifetime guarantee for S long as you own the car, well worth it. Probably less than £500 for a twin for a V8

Nice that you consider loud exhausts cool. Must be nice annoying people for your own selfish pleasure.

 

[srichards]

I do just over £12K per year and couldn't afford the monthly payments (with any certaintly) on a new car. My wife gave up her job to become a full time Mum and whilst she's doing an Avon round and I'm doing some photography jobs here and there, on a long term basis there just aren't the funds, even at £100pm. We're running 2 Focus estates for practicality and anything that's smaller isn't going to work that well (especially as we're "talking" about baby number 2).

I think Rachael's Nan can get Ford discount still and we did talk about it but the finances just don't stack up

WTCs need a minimum number of hours to be worked so if you aren't really doing many hours a week they're not going to pay it. Universal credit is even harsher and assumes each self employed hour of work at least earns you minimum wage. As that is going up to £7.20 an hour in April it means these self employment jobs that don't really pay won't be subsidised any longer.

Job centre has been pushing people into self employment even if it's not really paying without WTCs and other subsidies.

 

[nilagin]

Nice that you consider loud exhausts cool. Must be nice annoying people for your own selfish pleasure.

Not selfish at all, didn't anyone tell you it's nice to share.

 

[Cobra]

didn't anyone tell you it's nice to share.

My neighbours never thought so when I fabricated a pair of side pipes for my V6 (essex) Capri
( you could get away with it then too )

 

[Mr Bump]

Not selfish at all, didn't anyone tell you it's nice to share.

Sorry I meant to say anti social

 

[Nod]

Less antisocial than noisy children.

 

[rjbell]

I'm seriously tempted by the new Focus RS in that respect, trade in my current ST on a new ST on options and then use the equity in my current car to go towards financing the RS. Problem for me would not be trusting other people who would like to help themselves to the car. Suppose I could always leave it at work where it's behinds a security gate and well out of sight from the wrong prying eyes, then just swap cars when I want to use the RS.

I'm surprised at the price. Only £3k more than a Golf GTI.