When do you become a "Photographer"

Liam said:
I have been into photography since I was 14 (now 18) but I still tell people that "I am into photography" never that I am a photographer.
So when can I be classed as a Photographer?
Sorry for the randomness of this thread :geek:
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its not about making money although most think the tab signifies that
i play bass..i am a bassist..i dont get paid..i do it as a hobby and play in public free with our group

i take photographs and since starting to do so at 20 i have learned a lot about what was wrong and what should be right and so got to the stage i was confident enough to join a camera club...compete and learn more...
i then got to the stage i could 'perform in public' and since i considered my self an amateur musician i didnt push the photography bit..i had a good job and loved doing that.!!
so i did photo shoots of school plays...bits and bobs for friends and contacts..all quite rewarding and to a standard acceptable
never weddings...to sober and codified...an odd calendar shot..some agency work which paid nothing
i consider myself a photographer..as a musician
i wouldnt take the bread from someone elses mouth but wouldnt turn down the chance to shoot and play
having viewed a lot of professional work..some of my friends are portrait photographers and music event photographers...i wouldnt even remotely associate my being a photographer...to their level
level..that is where it is at...when you view your work you need to do so within the level of its requirement and reproduction.
tea's ready:thumbs:
 
cyclone said:
No, as KIPAX said, you are a photographer. It has nowt to do with money.

If you make your full time living taking photo's then you are a professional photographer.

If you make some money from photo's but have other work then you are semi-pro.

At the moment you are an amateur photographer.

These definitions have nothing to do with image quality.
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I agree with this...

EdinburghGary said:
I consider a photogapher to be proficient at the act of taking photos, to understand a little about composition, ISO, shutter speeds etc. Someone with a serious interest in the hobby.

My wife takes a point and shoot to concerts, keeps it on auto. She is by no means a photographer IMO :)

Gary.
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but think Gary has a point too.

To be a photographer I do think you need to have an understanding of the basic principles and make conscious decisions about how a shot is taken. If you just point the camera, keep it on auto, and press the button, then the camera is doing more work than you.

It's a bit like chefs - someone might have a job title of chef but work in some cheap n cheerful pub where all the food is prepackaged and heated up. I'd class them as a microwave technician rather than a real chef who creates dishes from the raw ingrediants...
 
I suppose it's about identity, and I quote...

"You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your ******* khakis. "

We use the things we do and the places we go and the clothes we wear to define ourselves as people.

In the end, it's not whether you see yourself as a photographer, it's how the people around you see you, and they only see what you show them.........................
 
Daysleeper40 said:
I agree with this...



but think Gary has a point too.
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I think what I said is very literal, Gary spannered things by thinking about it :lol:
I still think though that anybody taking a photo is a photographer, you can put a variety of adjectives in front of the word photographer such as good, bad, talented, professional, blah blah.


If I were to run down the road, an onlooker may describe me as a jogger, because they see me jogging. At that point in time they would be correct to describe me in that way, although I don't jog for work or pleasure I do sometimes do it to get to the pub faster :lol:
 
KIPAX said:
Your a photographer when you take pictures.. Simples :)
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this.

ie you are a driver as soon as you drive a car. you're a parent as soon as you have a kid. ad infinitum.
 
I think the problem is circumstantial, when someone else calls you a photographer you aren't obliged to correct them. When someone asks you what you are, they generally mean what do you do for a living. Finally, when describing what you love to do, i dont think it hurts to say you're 'into photography' i generally prefer to say this as to say i'm a photographer sounds more like i'm doing it because i have to.
 
Rozzy said:
"You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet.
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It's amazing how many people do think those things are who they are.


Steve.
 
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm leaving this post alone now as it gets me vexed.

It's simple I fix leaks and pipes. BUT I'm not a plumber. You're all diluting the whole title of Photographer.

If you read this thread everyone is right. ( And I agree) But there are 2 many variations on it. Things should be black and white no grey areas. Thats why this country is in such a pickle. More bounderies are needed!!!! I like boundaries, keeps the neighbours dog from crapping on my lawn....

A Lawyer is a Lawyer, A Plumber a Plumber, etc... Part time hobby bits just dilutes the whole thing and makes it diluted and to spread out.

If you incorperate hobby,part time then everyone is correct.

Maybe I value my job/Lifestyle title to much. But I never profess to be something I'm not.... Vexed, feeling vexed.......

Get that dog off my lawn!!!!!!

Time for a beer.

(worms,can,open) Time to duck yet?
 
Steve Smith said:
It's amazing how many people do think those things are who they are.

Steve.
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It's a pity, but I don't think it's amazing, or even particularly surprising. We live in a consumer society, bombarded by enticing advertising and, for a while, cheap and easy credit. A lot of people do start defining themselves in terms of what they do, what they earn, what their post code is, what they drive, what they own and where their kids go to school..........and other people tend to define them by the same criteria.

One of the happiest people I've known was a PJ in South Africa. She was about 40, single, and reckoned that everything she really wanted and valued would fit in a backpack. The rest was "stuff", stuff she could walk away from without giving it much thought or looking back. There was no real forward planning in her life, and the future would sort itself out one way or another. I envied her in some ways.
 
I think the reason It gets me is that at a party once.. ( years back) This chap said he was a tog. It turned out he worked in a office somewhere.
And he did'nt feel his job title was flash enough......

guess thats why.......


but hey who cares!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nothing to do with money or work quality. I just dont get why they say they are a photographer and not a truck driver. Does it matter that much that they can't say that?
 
On Tuesday evening me and a friend went into Manchester centre to get some snaps. We had the cameras attached to the tripods and were carrying them and had big warn clothes on.

We came to Selfridges next to the big wheel in Manchester and was approached by two young girls (13-14) asking if we were paparazzi... I looked at them, a bit dazzled.... and asked why they would think that. They then told us that the cast of Coronation street were in Selfridges and they were sat outside waiting for them.

For Tuesday night we were Paparazzi. Sod being a Photographer :thumbs:
 
Daryl said:
I think the reason It gets me is that at a party once.. ( years back) This chap said he was a tog. It turned out he worked in a office somewhere.
And he did'nt feel his job title was flash enough......

guess thats why.......


but hey who cares!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nothing to do with money or work quality. I just dont get why they say they are a photographer and not a truck driver. Does it matter that much that they can't say that?
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I think it just boils down to the fact you think there is some form of glam/elitism associated with being a photographer and you don't like it when someone whose occupation is not a photographer calls themself one.

Nothing wrong with that at all - always interesting to see people's views on what is what especially when they differ from your own. :)
 
so am i right in saying when i use the shredder i am in fact a cardboard compressor engineer lol lol lol lol
 
Daryl said:
I just dont get why they say they are a photographer and not a truck driver.
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Why can't they be both?

Daryl said:
It's simple I fix leaks and pipes. BUT I'm not a plumber. You're all diluting the whole title of Photographer.
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So do I. I have just re-plumbed my mother's central heating system and I have fitted systems for about eight friends in the past. Whilst I am doing plumbing, I am a plumber (an amateur one) but I don't earn any money from it.

Before you ask... Yes, I do enjoy doing it.... Sad isn't it?!!


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
Why can't they be both?
So do I. I have just re-plumbed my mother's central heating system and I have fitted systems for about eight friends in the past. Whilst I am doing plumbing, I am a plumber (an amateur one) but I don't earn any money from it.
Before you ask... Yes, I do enjoy doing it.... Sad isn't it?!!
Steve.
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true brit!!
i was a professional fitter in the shipyards, coal board, oil industry
i still fix the odd bits and bobs..like my car rear washer VW mk4...but dont get paid and am retired...
so is it competence or snobbery
 
Steve Smith said:
Hopefully, it's competence and an un-willingness to pay anyone to do anything which I can do myself.
Steve.
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exactly..unless its mandatory why not diy..if you are competent and have the correct tools and materials
we are getting a new boiler next week from british gas etc...got all sorts of discounts...my wife is sending me out for the day...or tying my hands and blindfolding me...
i will inspect the hell out of that installation:D
 
mrcrow said:
exactly..unless its mandatory why not diy..if you are competence
we are getting a new boiler next week from british gas etc...got all sorts of discounts...my wife is sending me out for the day...or tying my hands and blindfolding me...
i will inspect the hell out of that installation:D
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Now if it was me, I would be fitting it then getting a Gas Safe registered friend to commission it!

Tonight, I'm going to be a carpenter!


Steve.
 
Slim, I think Ali was making the point more that some people put a lot of stock in "this is what I do for a living"

I hate when I meet people for the first time and they ask me what I do for a living, its usually because they want to tell you what they do!
 

Or NOT depending on your view point... :shrug: ...somewhat amusing in parts... just... :suspect:

Seven Levels of Photographer... :suspect:

Blatant copy from... Ken Rockwell's web site... :naughty:

"Artist: Top Level 7 (equivalent to "Heaven" in Christian mythology)

This is the highest level.

An artist fixes his imagination in a tangible form called a photograph. He captures the spirit of place or person, real or imagined, in this photograph and the viewer responds to this.

An artist is a complete master of his tools. When creating art an artist transcends common existence as his spirit flies up to meet that which he is capturing. He may practice and learn his tools while he is not creating, however when creating the camera becomes an extension of his mind. No conscious thought is expended on the technical issues with which he is a virtuoso while creating photographs.

To make a musical analogy, a musician may woodshed his scales, but when he's jamming he's not even thinking about fingerings. He's lost in the passion of the moment.

Just like professional surfers who have a dozen boards or pro guitarists who have 23 axes, an artist may have a slew of cameras, each for a different purpose.

Likewise, other artists may only have one camera, or none at all. It just doesn't matter.

Artists sometimes dress funny and tend to stay up late. They usually prefer to photograph attractive young women and are proud of it.

No one ever sees their work since they have crummy ability to promote themselves, and sadly, usually don't even appreciate their own excellent work. Those that do drop down to Whore, which sadly and paradoxically means you will never see the work of a true artist unless you know one personally. Good artists are usually too embarrassed to show their work to anyone unless you are intimate with them, since their work is their soul.

Artists use any sort of camera, including pinholes and disposables, or 8 x 10s. They use whatever instrument they need to create what they want.

Whore: Level 6

A whore is an artist who sells his soul by accepting money or drugs for his art.

By lowering himself to this level his vision is compromised.

Why? Because when one depends on selling one's soul to pay for one's food and pad one does not screw with the program, which means that one does not try new styles.

If a whore's work pays his bills after years of trying, it's unlikely any whore will be open to trying new styles while he still needs the dough.

Artists with representation (meaning they are represented by a gallery or an artists' representatives just as pimps do in the sex trade) may lose that representation if they change their style.

Therefore, art for sale from one person rarely gets better or different.

The style that sells is all a whore's johns and pimps (representatives) want to see. See Barnbaum's book on artistry. It is extraordinarily difficult for a successful whore to change styles once one has been accepted.

Amateur: Level 5

People who earn less than half of their income from photography are amateurs. This has nothing to do with the quality of their photography.

This person loves to create photographs. Good amateurs of pure spirit can transcend the other levels directly to being an artist.

People who shoot weddings and etc. on weekends as a side line from their day jobs are still amateurs; they just charge for their photos. And as you read here they may also charge a lot for their snaps.

Amateurs who think that better cameras will improve their photos are at risk of descending to the lowest level of equipment measurbator. Too many amateurs have been misled by camera makers into thinking that they need good cameras for good images. This thought is poison to creating art.

Amateurs who lose themselves in creating great images are set for a path of enlightenment.

Being an amateur is a good thing; from this level one can rise to the level of artist rather easily.

Amateurs almost always shoot Canon SLRs.

Snapshooter: Level 4

This is my mom and most people. These people want memories, as opposed to photographs or cameras.

Snapshooters who are graphic artists or otherwise visually literate people often make fantastic images that impress everyone. These snapshooters are artists and don't even realize it. They usually dress better than the artists who think they really are artists.

Believe it: it's the photographer who makes an image, not a camera.

Snapshooters use point-and-shoot and disposable cameras, which give the same excellent results as the Leicas, Nikons, Canons and Contaxes used by everyone else.

Professional: Level 3

A professional photographer is a person who earns his entire living (100%) from the sale of photographs.

Professionals do not create art for a living; they create images for commerce. They usually have some familiarity with the tools and can get out decent images, however they may or may not be able to capture imagination.

Of course professionals may create great images, but that's on their own time.

Professionals spend very little time worrying about cameras, except when they need to get them repaired. They spend most of their time looking for work and ****ing about how all the other photographers in town are dropping their prices.

Professionals spend more on film and lab fees each month than they spend on camera gear in a year.

There are no professional nature photographers. They all either have day jobs or make their wives support them.

Professionals shoot Nikon SLRs, Mamiya medium format and Calumet 4x5" cameras. They cannot afford gear as good as most serious amateurs.

Unless you are a commercial photography buyer or know one as a friend you have not heard of professional photographers. The ones you may have seen in camera ads proclaiming that they use this or that camera are just spokesmodels.

Professionals don't have websites and don't put out technical newsletters. Those people are usually amateurs.

Rich Amateur: Level 2

These are amateurs who, by having too much money, buy lots of equipment which can fetter their freedom of expression. They are mostly men, and many are old or retired.

Rich amateurs shoot Leicas, Contaxes, Alpas, Hasselblads and Linhof 4x5s. These are great cameras, but the results are the same as the Zenits, Pentaxes, Bronicas and Tachiharas.

Today they mostly shoot Canon 1Ds-Mk IIs, 5Ds or Nikon D2X.

These are the same idiots who bought the first 2.7 Megapixel digital SLRs designed for newspapers like the Nikon D1 back in 2000 just because they cost $5,000. They gave technically poorer results than the film cameras used by snapshooters. All because it's expensive doesn't make it good.

Bad rich amateurs think fuzzy B/W images of poor people are art.

Some rich amateurs fall into the bottom spiritual level easily because they worry too much about equipment, others go straight on to create great art since they don't have any worries about equipment since they think they own the best. Oddly, few rich amateurs produce ordinary work. It either rules or sucks.

Equipment Measurbator: Bottom Level 1 (equivalent to "Hell" in Christian mythology)

These men (and they are all men) have no interest in art or photography because they have no souls. Lacking souls they cannot express imagination or feeling, which is why their images, if they ever bother to make any, suck.

These folks have analysis paralysis and never accomplish anything.

Does poring over a microscope analyzing test images have anything to do with photographing a Joshua tree at dawn? Of course not. Even worse, time wasted concentrating on tests is time not spent learning useful aspects of photography and certainly time that could have been better spent actually photographing. Test just enough to know what your gear can do, and then get on with real photography.

They are interested solely in equipment for its own sake. They will talk your ear off for hours if you let them, but as soon as you ask to see their portfolio their bravado scurries away, or they think you want to see their cameras or stocks. You can read why cameras simply don't matter here.

Most seem to come from technical avocations, like engineering, computers and sciences. These people worry so much about trying to put numerical ratings on things that they are completely oblivious to the fact that cameras or test charts have nothing to do with the spirit of an image. Because they worry so much about measuring camera performance we have dubbed them "Measurbators." Unfortunately, many of them wander into KenRockwell.com looking for information on camera performance.

Many of them also play with audio equipment, computers or automobiles. They enjoy these toys just like their cameras for their own sake, but rarely if ever actually use them for the intended purposes.

Younger ones play video games or engage in chat rooms and web surfing. Older ones join "camera" clubs. (You should join photography clubs, but never camera clubs or any clubs that try to score art, since art is entirely subjective and cannot be scored numerically.) Likewise, these people never create anything notable with any of this other gear either, but they sure get excited by just having, getting or talking to you about it.

The one type of gear these people ignore is the only type of gear that actually helps: lighting.

Someone with a decent portfolio is not an equipment measurbator. Someone with more cameras than decent photos just may be. People with websites teeming with technical articles but few interesting photographs probably are.

Do not under any circumstances deal with these people, talk to them, read their websites or especially ask them for photography advice. To the innocent they seem like founts of knowledge, however their sick, lifeless souls would love to drag you into their own personal Hells and have your spirit forever mired in worrying about how sharp your lens is. If you start worrying about this and you'll never photograph anything again except brick walls and test charts.

These people are easy to identify. If you've read this far you've probably seen their websites. They always have lots of info about equipment, but very few real photographs. Beware of any information from any website not loaded with photography you admire.

Other people have other words for these people. This article here adds some more perspective.

I had to pull most of the photos of equipment off my site because these people were spending more time looking at my equipment than my art! The bandwidth for which I pay was being eaten up by these idiots looking at my lenses, instead of looking at the photos in my gallery which is the whole point of this site. That's why all the stupid pages like this one are in yellow, so that their eyes hurt too much to waste too much time on the nuts and bolts.

Most people who waste my time e-mailing me with technical and equipment questions through this site unfortunately belong to this unenlightened bottom group. Almost anyone who actually worries about the level they occupy belong to the bottom. Many of these folks stalk the Internet, and spend hours getting off "contributing" to technical websites and photography chat rooms like Photo.net, www.dpreview.com and photocritique.net instead of making photos. The guys here aren't too bad, and most of the Leica people here are just equipment collectors.

Online Expert or Armchair Photographer: Level 0 (these guys don't take pictures so they aren't a level of photographer.)

This level never existed before the internet, because cameras were never as exciting as sports cars or missiles for men to research.

This became terrifyingly apparent one day when I got an email from someone who didn't think an example I posted of a sharp lens was sharp. I was confused, since it was exceptionally sharp, which is why I posted it. When I asked this reader "not sharp compared to what?," he replied that it wasn't as sharp as a different example of a different lens he saw posted on some other website.

Holy Crap! This was a guy who doesn't even own a camera! He spends his time researching them and spreading his irrelevant opinions all over the Internet!

The Internet is ablaze with these guys. Forums and chat rooms are loaded with them. Photographers don't have the time for forums. We have more photography to do than time to do it. See The Two Kinds of Photographers.

Photography was never cool enough before digital to attract men's attention for no particular reason. Personally, the muzzle velocity of a Barrett 50-calibre sniper rifle is far more interesting to me than the MTF of a digital camera I'll never use. If I worked in an office and could waste my employer's time researching personal hobbies on the Internet, I'd rather look at pornography than research other people's cameras.

This level has existed in the automotive marketspace forever, with young boys learning every possible performance specification of Corvettes and Ferraris. We boys start this more than 10 years before we can get a driver's license, much less be able to buy our own Ferraris.

Boys love to learn about cars, guns, motorcycles and anything technical. I know I sure do. We men never grow out of wanting to know everything about everything, and telling you so.

Just because any car nut can tell you every possible performance specification of a Ferrari doesn't mean he can drive. Most of these people live in places where they've never even seen a Ferrari, much less ever owned one themselves.

Today with digital photography, we now have the same lookie-loos researching digital camera specs just for the bizarre fun of it. Ignore them. They love to talk and research, but aren't photographers."


BTB... I don't agree with or in any way subscribe to this particular definition or group of... just thought I would chuck it into the fray... :D

And really (politely... :naughty:)... WHO CARES... ;)




:p
 
Rozzy said:
I suppose it's about identity, and I quote...

"You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your ******* khakis. "

We use the things we do and the places we go and the clothes we wear to define ourselves as people.

In the end, it's not whether you see yourself as a photographer, it's how the people around you see you, and they only see what you show them.........................
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This reminded of another Tyler Durden quote:

"Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken"

I dont know if that is relevant to this discussion but it has always amused me.
 
I purchased my first dslr september last year and since then iv always said when asked that I am just a hobbiest. But after taking what I believe to be some great photos recently at family events and a boxing match last weekend I would happily say I am now an amateur photographer.
 
BalSanghera said:
I purchased my first dslr september last year and since then iv always said when asked that I am just a hobbiest. .
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A hobbiest what? You cant go around telling people one without the other are they will look at you stupid.. your a hobbyist what?

Prefix it with whatever word you like but all roads lead back to.. "Photographer" :)
 
KIPAX said:
A hobbiest what? You cant go around telling people one without the other are they will look at you stupid.. your a hobbyist what?

Prefix it with whatever word you like but all roads lead back to.. "Photographer" :)
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A photography hobbyist... hence the camera in my hand... Reason i say that is because of the assumption that just because you have a dslr you must be a full time photographer... I guess what I really should say is that I am a part time amature photographer.
 
BalSanghera said:
A photography hobbyist... hence the camera in my hand... Reason i say that is because of the assumption that just because you have a dslr you must be a full time photographer... I guess what I really should say is that I am a part time amature photographer.
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Hmm I'd just say 'yeah that's right, now would you mind awfully getting out of my picture thanks.' :D

They can assume all they want.
 
To be honest, I can't see a unanimous decision being arrived at....!
 
and you never will because of what I said way back in the mists of time.

Different people will always define themselves in different ways. It's like asking someone for an accurate measure of something when all the rulers are different!
 
You know you're a photographer when your camera knocks against your wifes the head and the only tear you shed is for your cracked CP filter.
 
From Collins Online Dictionary:

"A person who takes photographs, either as a hobby or a profession"

There is no differing opinion, this is the official definition, no arguing. If you take photographs, with a camera, as a hobby or as your job, you are by definition, a photographer. It doesn't matter what others think. :bang:
Nor do you need qualifications or special skills to call yourself a photographer, as you would for a pilot or plumber. :bang:

It isn't about how good you are, it isn't about what gear you have. :bang:

However, I agree there are different types of photographer.
 
I therefore will class myself as "A person who takes photographs as a hobby" surely that will make everyone happy?
 
Liam, so long as YOU are happy that's all that really matters :)
 
So when I have a camera in my hand I'm a Photographer, and when I have a brush an Artist, so if I'm not holding a brush at that precise moment I cease to be an Artist or vice versa. It's like saying I'm an Accountant, it helps people put you into a slot, which slot you offer them is your choice, like saying Retired, it isn't a job, although it seems like it sometimes :lol:
 
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